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03' RT No Start

B

bigbear

New member
Bike: 03’ RT 55K miles no previous electrical problems. Electrical add-ons: skene brake lights, bullet running lights wired to fuse 8 radio harness. No recent electrical work.

Situation – I rode bike for about an hour and after 15 minute stop, engine would not crank.

Observations:
Key off: clock operational, 12.9V batt
Key in park position: Park lamp, tail lamp and skene lamps lit. Clock operational. 12.4v batt
Key in on position: No engine crank. Clock resets after 3-4 sec. Indicator lights (brake, neutral, etc) dim and flickering, tach bounces up to 4k a couple of times, no RID except for clock, no horn, headlamp or turn signals. 4.0v batt.
No electrical smells and relays are not hot.

I pulled and replaced all relays and pulled and checked all fuses. No change in observations.

I’m thinking high current draw do to problem with starter or starter relay.

Any suggestions on what to check next?
Thanks!
 
My personal wild assed guess...

From what I've learned here you either have a battery that's shorted itself between cells or a starter in which the magnets have come loose. I'm leaning towards the latter. Especially if your battery recovers between starting episodes.
 
Ken,

I'd almost guarantee you it's the HES. Mine failed at a stoplight several weeks ago, like I hit the kill switch. ZERO spark. Very common problem on this era bikes. Heat and time degrade the insulation on regular wire used by BMW between the sensors and the connector to the main wiring harness under the gas tank.

Lots of info on several forums. For instance: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=985399&page=1

GSAddict rewires these using your sensors and mounting plate with hight-temp wire and a new connector for $110. His email is: arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca

My HES connector (before):

UNRn59PurpxkCzXENRgoZLKso4YPFJc3aliAR-utCUcmei4GgZt4AnuXBvxmwj3waRfzfXPHZv409dOqX7xeyYqpIf47DWL5.jpg
 
lowndes said:
Ken,

I'd almost guarantee you it's the HES. Mine failed at a stoplight several weeks ago, like I hit the kill switch. ZERO spark. Very common problem on this era bikes. Heat and time degrade the insulation on regular wire used by BMW between the sensors and the connector to the main wiring harness under the gas tank.

Lots of info on several forums. For instance: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=985399&page=1

GSAddict rewires these using your sensors and mounting plate with hight-temp wire and a new connector for $110. His email is: arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca

My HES connector (before):

View attachment 61613
Click to expand...

I don't agree in this case. There is nothing about a failed HES that would prevent the bike from cranking, nor would it cause other signs of inadequate voltage. It sounds like a bad battery to me. I would suggest you read the voltage while the starter button is depressed. If that is the 4.0 volts mentioned you have confirmed the problem as either a bad battery or a huge amount of starter drag. My bet is battery.

As for the HES issue - if you have an 1100 the wiring bundle will fail if it hasn't already and been replaced.
 
Paul is right. NOT the HES. I read that BMW made the correction in the wiring in mid-2002. Your '03 HES is OK.

Lowndes
 
Did you measure those voltages right at the battery terminals?
Loose terminals or internal to battery are my thoughts.
Starter magnet issue was resolved by '03
 
From the standpoint of debugging whether it's battery, cables or starter, I'd look at the cables first, it's fast and easy: are they tight and free of corrosion. Next connect jumper cables from car to battery and see if the engine will turn over easily. If it does, suspect the battery, if it doesn't turn easily and freely, suspect the starter.

Because the battery holds 12.4V with the headlamp on, I'll bet it is the starter.
 
Probably the starter. The usual magnets coming loose problem. You can repair that with a new magnet housing but all in all a new $200 Valeo from Euromotoelectric may be a better deal for you, once you consider your time and the fact that the rest of the starter is 15 years old, too.

That said, with just the described symptoms it could be a bad battery or connection, too. Usually the bad starter makes a small clunk and the lights all go dark, then they recover when you release the button. A bad battery doesn't recover the same way. A bad connection typically won't give you that 4V scenario... it'll be good or zero. But most of this can be figured out with a voltmeter.

HES, really? Lowndes, did you actually read his post? What did he write that makes you think it could be the HES?
 
roger 04 rt said:
Because the battery holds 12.4V with the headlamp on, I'll bet it is the starter.
Click to expand...

He said that was with the key in park, so wouldn't that mean no headlight?

nosvamos said:
Key in on position: No engine crank. Clock resets after 3-4 sec. Indicator lights (brake, neutral, etc) dim and flickering, tach bounces up to 4k a couple of times, no RID except for clock, no horn, headlamp or turn signals. 4.0v batt.
No electrical smells and relays are not hot.
Click to expand...

Clarification question: By, "Key in on position: No engine crank." Do you mean:
- the key is on and you are pressing the starter button, but it isn't cranking
or
- the key is on and you are not pressing the starter button
 
03' RT No Start - Update

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions. It may not be the worst outcome, but certainly not the best: problem disappeared before I could determine the fault. Details below. I did wiggle every harness I could reach to try to recreate the problem w/o success. Any other suggestions on something else I should try while the plastic is off?

Here are steps/results of problem investigation:
1. Pulled starter relay – no change in observations/problem
2. Replaced starter relay and pulled load relief relay – normal key on actions occur – ABS self check, neutral light, battery light etc.
3. Installed fuel pump relay in load relief relay location – all observations/problem returns
4. Pulled plastic and checked battery at terminals – OCV 12.8 volts, battery OK under load test
5. Pulled load relief relay again – normal key on actions occur and bike cranks and starts.
6. Results seem to indicate problem in load relief circuitry, so I pulled fuse 7 (heated grips), fuse 4 (horn), relay 6 (horn) and relay 10 (fog lamps) and reinstalled load relief relay – normal key on actions occur. bike cranks and starts, headlamps & turn signals work.
7. Replaced fuse 7, fuse 4/relay 6 and relay 10 sequentially without re-occurrence of problem.

Dour Raymond’s wiring schematics were indispensable in thinking through this issue.
 
None of that really addresses the problem. Those are things I would be looking at if you were getting no response at all when you tried to crank the engine.

The problem seemed to be that the voltage went unusually low when you attempted to crank the engine. That isn't a controls issue, it's an overload issue. Either you have an excessive load somewhere, or a connection that cannot withstand a normal load. If you look at all of the affected items from your first post, what is electrically common between them?

Still sounds like a loose battery connection (you seem to have ruled that out) or a bad starter.
 
"HES, really? Lowndes, did you actually read his post? What did he write that makes you think it could be the HES?"

Hey, Anton,

Around here we frequently use "crank" synonymously with "start". When I started the reply there were no others. Reading all of the replies and additional comments from nosvamos it's clear that he meant that the starter was not turning the engine and that is definitely not the HES. Also per my second post, not the HES because of the year.

Sorry if this offended you.


Lowndes
 
nosvamos said:
Thanks for your ideas and suggestions. It may not be the worst outcome, but certainly not the best: problem disappeared before I could determine the fault. Details below. I did wiggle every harness I could reach to try to recreate the problem w/o success. Any other suggestions on something else I should try while the plastic is off?

Here are steps/results of problem investigation:
1. Pulled starter relay – no change in observations/problem
2. Replaced starter relay and pulled load relief relay – normal key on actions occur – ABS self check, neutral light, battery light etc.
3. Installed fuel pump relay in load relief relay location – all observations/problem returns
4. Pulled plastic and checked battery at terminals – OCV 12.8 volts, battery OK under load test
5. Pulled load relief relay again – normal key on actions occur and bike cranks and starts.
6. Results seem to indicate problem in load relief circuitry, so I pulled fuse 7 (heated grips), fuse 4 (horn), relay 6 (horn) and relay 10 (fog lamps) and reinstalled load relief relay – normal key on actions occur. bike cranks and starts, headlamps & turn signals work.
7. Replaced fuse 7, fuse 4/relay 6 and relay 10 sequentially without re-occurrence of problem.

Dour Raymond’s wiring schematics were indispensable in thinking through this issue.
Click to expand...

In your first post, you said "I pulled and replaced all relays and pulled and checked all fuses. No change in observations."

Now your problem seems resolved?

I think you have a bad ground. Start by yanking on those and follow up by taking them apart and make sure they are clean.

If you have the capability, do a voltage drop from the battery to the starter housing. You could do both hot and ground. Shouldn't be more than 0.2V.

Just to add misery to electrical problems, I would like to share my useless trivia for the day and my new found being smarterer. Did you know that Chinese wiring diagrams refer to the positive as the Anode and the negative as the Cathode?
 
03'RT No Start

Anton - Problem description in my original post is a unclear: Key on symptoms (Clock resets after 3-4 sec. Indicator lights (brake, neutral, etc) dim and flickering, tach bounces up to 4k a couple of times, no RID except for clock, no horn, headlamp or turn signals. 4.0v batt.) all occurred w/o start button engaged. There were no changes in these symptoms when starter button was engaged although I didn't measure batt voltage when starter button was depressed.

I'll pull starter and inspect/bench test.
Ken
 
The tach and other symptoms are typical of the low voltage you measured. Either the battery was actually at 4V, or it was fine and something downstream was at 4V due to a bad connection. Where were you measuring the 4V? Usually hitting the button brings the voltage to pretty much zero with a bad connection or a blocked starter, but it could be that 4V wasn't enough to flip the starter relay so nothing further happened when you hit the button.

Poor connections are often intermittent, so I wouldn't be too confident that you have found the problem. You know, there is a ground point on the engine pretty much underneath the negative battery terminal. It's a real PITA to access but you might be able to wiggle the wires enough to see if it is loose there.

Narrowing down what is 4V and what is 12V is going to be critical, unless you just happen to find a smoking gun somewhere. Use Doug Raymond's diagrams to figure out if the place where you measured 4V is consistent with your other observations. If it was from some dash-mounted voltmeter, it's possible that you resolved the issue by swapping relays around. 4V at the battery? On a fused circuit? At the starter? Using what as a ground reference? Etc.
 
03' RT No Start - Final Report?

Removed starter and found that solenoid plunger would stick in the activated position. Magnets and planetary gear cover are OK. Cleaned starter and reinstalled. Measured 11 amps and 0.1 volt drop between +/- batt terminals and starter + stud/housing while cranking engine. I could not determine condition of ground under batt tray. Bike starts quickly and all other functions are normal. Bike is back together and I plan to make road test (close to home) on Tues.

Thanks for insights, suggestions and expert advice.
 
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