Bmw lack of quality on front crash parts 1200rt etc

ballen262 · May 9, 2017

lkchris said:
The notion of judging quality of any part let alone the reputation of a manufacturer based on how the part survives hitting a turkey is ludicrous and ridiculous.

Worldwide, BMW has a reputation of the highest order and nothing noted in this thread can change that ... nor should it. Not even close.

In any event, "quality" is more often described around the driving experience, the appearance, etc. Making more money off crash repairs is grassy knoll conspiracy theory crud, really not worthy of discussion in intelligent circles.

I once new a guy that gave up BMWs when the /5 Airheads arrived with plastic instead of metal fenders. I really think that his and your heads will stop hurting when you stop banging them against walls.

I call this justification based on a lack of reality.
1. If you don't think its about parts equal profit, ask me this, how much would you pay to build my 2016 R1200RT by ordering part by part from BMW???? Ask this question you'll discover why our insurance rates are so high today.....
2. I did say I love the bike but its our job as a consumer to make aware that EVERYONE will damage, tear down, service your bike over and over again.
3. Here are some pictures of a $296.92 Left Hand Headlight part pictured below, and $183.78 is the cost of the Right Hand side.
A. Why such a difference in price being the same dam part, oh don't forget they are premiered not even the painted version that I would have had to wait 2 weeks to get from Germany.
B. The painted version is same dam price and by time I paint these to color of bike they will be $100 plus more due to cost of painting them. Thank heavens thats what I do for a living.

Then Im going to let the viewers decide if these tabs don't clearly show the tapering down of the plastic just before where it attaches to the main panel, then explain why the tabs show the thickness everywhere else of 2 to 3 mm but clearly thinning out as it attaches to panel.

Then tell me these are not meant to break easier,,, and then answer me why not just leave the thickness of the plastic the same all the way to the main panel.

?????????????????

ballen262 · May 9, 2017

Mark H said:
Disappointment in a product or a brand that we assign such allegiance to cuts deep. Ballen262 has extensive experience in the crash repair industry and his summary of the fittings and fixtures on the parts damaged by the encounter with the turkey reflect his disappointment and this is truely unfortunate.

When someone is feeling bad and is looking to vent this with us all on the forum, it's always going to cut both ways.
Some will agree and some will disagree, but the bottom line is (or this is my take from it), if he didn't care he wouldn't bother going online to talk about it.

Having said all this, I have worked as a product designer all of my working life and I know how difficult it is to find the balance in the design and development of new products using new materials and processes, to create parts and assemblies that meet the demanding standards of users. Although cost effective design is always the target, I have never ever been asked to design something to break so that the company can make more money selling spare parts. Planned obsolescence is real but is not the "evil" it is often misunderstood to be, but rather a reflection of our modern disposable society.

Small plastic clips, tabs etc. that hold many of the parts together on almost all of the products we interact with every day, MUST be designed correctly in order to function as required. Sometimes we get this wrong, but most times, experience empowers designers and engineers to walk that fine line and provide a part or assembly that functions as required (no more, no less). Body parts (mostly cosmetic but not exclusively) are often designed as replaceable parts rather than repairable parts because of the true nature of the need. Accidents (even ones that make for great photos such as the one with the turkey) damage bikes to the point where parts would not survive unscathed unless they were built like tanks with the associated weight and cost. No, they are not intended as crumple zones but they are intended to avoid impaling bystanders. That's more about the materials than the design of the clips, and yes it could be argued that the clips should be stronger.

Where the "bean counters" do come into play, is when our bikes are involved in an accident (even a minor one), and we want a brand new one back when it is fixed. No panel beaten parts or repainted patched panels. "My bike was "perfect" and "shiny" before this accident that wasn't my fault, so I want it back the same way when the shop is finished with it". "So don't try and pull that part off, plastic weld it or try to match the paint." "And whilst I'm at it, that's what I pay my insurance dollars for anyway."
All valid and reasonable expectations, that when combined with the "lifetime repair warranty" provided by most insurers these days, effectively dictate that parts be replaced not repaired. So now we get to the part where we need to design parts that can be economically and cost effectively designed and manufactured to support this. Lighter weight, parts with plastic clips that shouldn't break but unfortunately sometimes do at precisely the wrong time.

BMW don't design rubbish parts and indeed manufacture some of the best bikes on the planet. Not perfect in every way, but their designers, engineers and manufacturing partners take great pride in their work and their product, and it is unfair, but in the heat and emotion of the moment somewhat understandable, when one of our own who has just had his faith in the brand tested, calls "little plastic clips" out for greater scrutiny.

I'll get back to my design work now.

Well said but missing a valid point, please point out as a designer why then if ""not designed to break""
''very easy"" does the pictures above clearly clearly tapper down the plastic panel to 1mm at point of attachment but yet 2 to 3 mm of plastic on the rest of the plastic brackets on the back of these panels???

When you see thicker parts of the bracket tapper down to only 1mm attached this creates a stronger force against the 1mm area that is attached to panel to break much easier.

Not to mention my main reason to post this is make aware to others looking to work on your own bike do so very carefully.

AND I SAY WITH A LOUD VOICE if BMW does design a great bike and have the reputation as you state one has to ask then why do this type of design to the plastic crash parts.????

Omega Man · May 9, 2017

For your consideration-
I don't find many things made more "robust" than they need produced nowadays......it just isn't the way manufacturing is done- anymore. In the days of slide-rules calculations were figured....plus a little more- just in case. With CAD engineering coupled with Rapid Prototyping machines easily programed to have a CNC make the "mold", in dimensions that would take a human a real long time to make, this is what the end result is.
The parts work in the fashion they were designed for- but little else. In defense of the designers and engineers that figured how the part was to be designed for it's intended use, the parts work. If parts were designed for more than just working, where would the cut-off line be? For $200.00 extra, we have the turkey proof bike. For $600.00 we have the bike that will not sustain damage from a parking lot tip-over........Or- for a bike we can have a complete protection package called insurance.
YMMV.
OM

AKsuited · May 9, 2017

Motorcycles share one thing in common with airplanes - neither is designed to crash. An airplane built to survive a crash would be too heavy to get off the ground. A motorcycle designed to crash...would be an automobile.

Come on...The subject of this thread is ridiculous.

Harry

mika · May 9, 2017

This is only a question for discussion. I am not taking any side of the discussion just following the thread and have this question: What do you think the profit margin is on parts and who participates in sharing that profit?

“1. If you don't think its about parts equal profit, ask me this, how much would you pay to build my 2016 R1200RT by ordering part by part from BMW???? Ask this question you'll discover why our insurance rates are so high today.....”

This is a game gearheads have played as long as I have been getting my hands dirty. I don’t know the answer to that question. Every time someone figures out the cost to build a Corvette, MG, or motorcycle from parts the number is big when compared to the original manufacturer's suggested list price. For example, Max BMW built a new R90S from parts and the bill came in someplace over $46,000.
http://www.bikeexif.com/new-bmw-r90s. I am impressed with that number in two ways. First it is a big number for my budget. Second, that they were able to come up with new parts from inventory and BMW Classic.

pglaves · May 9, 2017

mika said:
This is only a question for discussion. I am not taking any side of the discussion just following the thread and have this question: What do you think the profit margin is on parts and who participates in sharing that profit?

I won't guess at the profit or markup. I will suggest that a very significant element in the parts price is the cost of inventory, inventory management, and distribution. When my 22 year old K75 needs a part I expect my dealer to have it, or to be able to get it within a few days. I don't expect my motorcycle to sit for weeks waiting for a part. BMW is generally pretty good at this except for the case of brand new models where parts have not yet promulgated throughout the supply chain.

Mark H · May 9, 2017

ballen262 said:
Well said but missing a valid point, please point out as a designer why then if ""not designed to break""
''very easy"" does the pictures above clearly clearly tapper down the plastic panel to 1mm at point of attachment but yet 2 to 3 mm of plastic on the rest of the plastic brackets on the back of these panels???

When you see thicker parts of the bracket tapper down to only 1mm attached this creates a stronger force against the 1mm area that is attached to panel to break much easier.

Not to mention my main reason to post this is make aware to others looking to work on your own bike do so very carefully.

AND I SAY WITH A LOUD VOICE if BMW does design a great bike and have the reputation as you state one has to ask then why do this type of design to the plastic crash parts.????

At the risk of getting in too deep here and just creating more angst and possibly boring people with too much detail -

Injection moulded parts are constrained by a number of material and manufacturing factors.
The specific issue raised here regarding the local thinning of wall sections on these parts and in particular the gusset, webs and flanges for the fasteners, has to do with sink marks on the primary faces of the part. If the wall section of the internal intersecting walls were the same thickness as the principle wall section you would suffer what are called "sink marks" on the appearance face of the part. Cute on the faces of little kids and movies stars, dimples on the appearance face of a highly polished and painted cosmetic part are both undesirable and unsightly. They are also a cause of distortion in an area where precision is paramount for alignment of the mating components.
Intersecting wall sections need to maintain a maximum of 2/3 relationship and preferably less to avoid these sink marks.

We often use locally thin wall sections to create what are called "frangible parts or features" where controlling a break point is required, but I don't see the need for that here.

No doubt about it, if the part was thicker it would be stronger. I am somewhat surprised that the parts show sharp intersections between the flanges, webs and gussets and the principle wall sections. Sharp corners and edges rather than wall section/thickness is the principle enemy here. ABS polymer (or the hybrid used on these parts) is a very tough material, but it doesn't like excessive stress and if you take it past its elastic limit it will ultimately fail. We've all flexed a piece of plastic repeatedly and watched it "stress whiten" before it ultimately breaks.

I believe it is valuable to raise these issues and ultimately to try and provide feedback to manufacturers who constantly strive to make parts and ultimately our beloved motorcycles better. Can this part be made more robust, certainly.

Regarding the price of the parts - that's a complex equation and more knowledgeable people than I can explain how a piece of painted plastic can retail for $200 - $300. I remember the shock when I was asked to pay $85 for the black plastic cover that goes over the terminals on the GPS mount. Part of it has to do with still being able to buy one of them 10 years after the model was released, or possibly the need to offset the R&D involved in bringing more and more models and variants to the market every year. And then there is the contentious expression - "what the market will bear".
A little like pharmaceuticals, the cost of a plastic part on our motorcycles has very little to do with the cost of the inconsequential squirt of polymer.

I hope you get your bike back on the road soon and return to enjoying why we ride.
Sorry if I came on too strong in defense of little plastic parts -

daboo · May 9, 2017

AKsuited said:
...Come on...The subject of this thread is ridiculous.

Harry

About a month or so ago, there was a thread about why membership in the MOA was low compared to the number who bought BMWs.

Well, you eat your own.

If you think the thread is ridiculous, let the thread die a slow death of neglect. But don't attack the OP.

Chris

ballen262 · May 10, 2017

Mark H said:
At the risk of getting in too deep here and just creating more angst and possibly boring people with too much detail -

Injection moulded parts are constrained by a number of material and manufacturing factors.
The specific issue raised here regarding the local thinning of wall sections on these parts and in particular the gusset, webs and flanges for the fasteners, has to do with sink marks on the primary faces of the part. If the wall section of the internal intersecting walls were the same thickness as the principle wall section you would suffer what are called "sink marks" on the appearance face of the part. Cute on the faces of little kids and movies stars, dimples on the appearance face of a highly polished and painted cosmetic part are both undesirable and unsightly. They are also a cause of distortion in an area where precision is paramount for alignment of the mating components.
Intersecting wall sections need to maintain a maximum of 2/3 relationship and preferably less to avoid these sink marks.

We often use locally thin wall sections to create what are called "frangible parts or features" where controlling a break point is required, but I don't see the need for that here.

No doubt about it, if the part was thicker it would be stronger. I am somewhat surprised that the parts show sharp intersections between the flanges, webs and gussets and the principle wall sections. Sharp corners and edges rather than wall section/thickness is the principle enemy here. ABS polymer (or the hybrid used on these parts) is a very tough material, but it doesn't like excessive stress and if you take it past its elastic limit it will ultimately fail. We've all flexed a piece of plastic repeatedly and watched it "stress whiten" before it ultimately breaks.

This part of your response about the face part (painted side) would show "sink marks" does make a point, as Ive seen this before many times in the automotive side.
To go more than 1mm of thickness maybe to a 2mm thickness at the contact point on the panel these plastic brackets would make them strong enough and better than they are now.

At the thickness they are now you can't even fix the tabs if you wanted to, you are forced to replace these panels when the tabs break.

As for all who think this is a stupid thread I will say this DONT CLICK ON IT, go read something else.
I can't count how many times I taken the time to read DO'S AND DONT'S and its saved me major hassle when I take on a project.
AGAIN MY MAIN REASON I started this thread was to make people aware if you work on your bikes yourselves to be aware of the delicate easy breaking tabs.
These painted panels are expensive, and many will appreciate the knowledge.

ballen262 · May 10, 2017

Regardless of the cheap painted BMW crash panels I will have to say working on the bike for the first time the design concept is for doing your own work is not bad.

Please remember everyone DO NOT OVER tighten your body panel bolts, if you do you will break the tabs.

I did a few things to protect my panels from rubbing and easy tear down in the future.

Other than the panels with crappy cheap brackets on the back of painted panels I did not run into any issues doing my own work on the bike.

AND BE AWARE EVERYONE, when you pull off the side panels where the BMW logo is located be very very careful with this panel.
After you pull the front 2 bolts out under headlight you have two push in tabs that go into rubber grommets, one lower toward the rear where your knee sits while on bike and one just below the radio control black panel.
THERE IS 2 TABS THAT SLIDE INTO THIS BLACK PANEL that if you pull to hard on the panel where the push in tab on rubber grommet is you can very easy break those two tabs that require the panel to be pushed rearward and up AFTER YOU VERY CAREFULLY PULL OUT THE TWO UPPER AND LOWER PUSH IN TABS, DO NOT PULL OUT MORE THAN 1/2 INCH ON PANEL OUTWARD TILL YOU SLIDE THE PANEL REARWARD, BOTH PANELS LEFT AND RIGHT ARE THE SAME WAY.

THIS PANEL IS THEE MOST STUPID THING BMW DID.
I almost broke my tabs if i had not knew from experience how to see under panels before I remove them.

I hope this helps everyone not break tabs on a $300 panels.

Mark H · May 10, 2017

Thank you

Thanks for sharing the photos.

There is something amazingly technical about these bikes once you remove their skin.
A bit like a transformer robot.

And just on a personal note - I appreciate the time and effort you have gone to in an attempt to share your experience and your desire to help others avoid similar pain.
This has been an informative and lively thread - as are most on this forum. Never be put off by others when your intentions are pure.

ballen262 · May 10, 2017

Mark H said:
Thanks for sharing the photos.

There is something amazingly technical about these bikes once you remove their skin.
A bit like a transformer robot.

And just on a personal note - I appreciate the time and effort you have gone to in an attempt to share your experience and your desire to help others avoid similar pain.
This has been an informative and lively thread - as are most on this forum. Never be put off by others when your intentions are pure.

Thanks

ballen262 · May 10, 2017

LFarling said:
I can say on the two side panels that have to come off with the tabs on are a poor design and lend themselves to breaking.

If you look at those tabs they have a indent on one side. I filled that indentation with plastic glue. I also ran a small bead on each side of the tabs where they meet the panel.

Many dealer techs have broken these panels so it is not uncommon and known to be a poor design. If I ever break one or both I will use velcro rather then pay for that panel. This has been mentioned and used so it does work. Now we can debate all day about design and how poor it is but it is what it is, Yes on a 22,000 bike we expect more and we get it in a lot of other aspects of the bike.

I am not arguing with your assessment of design implementation but the design itself is very cool. Maybe mold some thin metal stays in those tab areas.

Well I finally got in to get my 700 mile service, and had a great chance to talk to the tech about these panels.
He did tell me that the velcro is a service bulletin update. WHAT, VELCRO UPDATE..........
AND when he told me 90% of the bikes with the side panels that have the BMW logo that the bikes they service the tabs are broken he went on to say thats why BMW did the service bulletin to put the heavy duty velcro on the panel inside just below the side mirror to compensate for FAULTY DESIGN.

SOOOOOOOO IT looks like maybe I was right.

I feel BMW needs to bite the bullet and fork out the money to replace these panels to the customers. VELCRO what a joke, 20K bike and they resort to VELCRO.

Now I know why my panels have this velcro that I noticed when I replace my headlight and broken parts.

ncpbmw1953 · Aug 15, 2017

I heard about the vulnerable panel tabs prior to ordering a '16 RT. I bought some radiator guards and asked one of our two BMW certified mechanics to install them at the 600m service and asked if I could be there to watch him R&R said panels w/ vulnerable tabs so I could learn how not to damage them. After he removed the panels I picked up the left side one and had a good look to see how the panels should be reinstalled--and it was quite obvious how to do this w/o harming the tabs which actually are IMO fairly robust:

1. Hang the panel into the tab slots taking care not to hinge the panel more than 20 degrees upwards from hanging dead down verticle.
2. Keeping the tabs firmly in place in their respective slots simply push the panel's inner pin into its matching grommet.
3. Insert the two screws to secure the panel in place.

That's all there is to it, with or w/o velcro.

It was when the mechanic FIRST installed the lower half of the panel pushing pin into grommet THEN proceeded to take a clenched fist and HAMMER the top edge in that I cringed in utter horror--it was plain to see this was the exact method one would employ if they intended to snap the tabs off at their base! They had to order a replacement color-matched panel. Unfortunate boo-boo, could have been designed to eliminate the need to understand how to R&R them. 26K miles later they're both fine, i.e. they haven't self destructed.

BMW does a whole bunch of stuff right, but they have a few goof ball design issues for sure.

rapz · Aug 16, 2017

I tend to lean towards the side of "motorcycles aren't meant to crash" and I believe that BMW does make an major investment in innovation. We've come a long ways from the airheads of the 70s. I also believe that BMW keeps the cost within reason. Go shop for a Harley Ultra CVO and pay more than $41K and it makes you appreciate the loaded RT for $23,500. Just my opinion.

rfmurtie · Oct 8, 2017

Panel Prices

Saw $300 mentioned. At A&S BMW website the panels being discussed sell for $815 EACH! Be gentle. The Clearwater Lights mirror mount bracket instructions warned me in advance. I did not break a tab but certainly see how easily one could produce a holy crap moment.

AKsuited · Oct 8, 2017

daboo said:
If you think the thread is ridiculous, let the thread die a slow death of neglect. But don't attack the OP.

No, attack me, instead.

I see a flaw in your logic.

Motorcycles are not made to be crashed. I don't see a chrome bumper on the front, like an old Desoto car.

ncpbmw1953 · Oct 8, 2017

I am in support of the OP's outrage except for concern over the design or robustness of trim panels. I think they're fine including the front panel w/ the tabs you have to understand how to not break. All they are doing is adding to styling and wind management and as such they don't need to be much more robust.

The real glaring issue here when you get right down to it seems clear to me: these panels cost next to nothing to stamp out. All the trim pieces are now in their 4th year of production so how many front panel pieces are produced to cover new models--lots! So the real problem is indeed WHAT THEY CHARGE FOR THEM.

When the BMW mech destroyed my left front panel by his failure to not install the piece as it was designed to be installed cost the shop whatever they charge them for this over $600 retail thin piece of plastic! To charge retail over $600 for this is preposterous for a replacement cost! They might charge $75 for an unpainted copy, and $150 for a painted copy, and they'd still come out ahead I'm sure. Or whatever $100/$200. They know about how many they need to keep ahead on to cover demand so I see no real logistical burden for something like this.

ncpbmw1953 · Oct 8, 2017

ballen262 said:
I hope this helps everyone not break tabs on a $300 panels.

What?! They were over $600 last year for the left front on mine! If that's true that's a giant improvement! You were in good company: the BMW certified mechanic who reinstalled my left front did not understand how they are to be removed and replaced and summarily put the BOTTOM of the panel in its grommet first then proceeded to, with the back of his clenched fist, smash the top edge as if it had no tabs but was a 'snap-in' design. Both tabs had their necks broken and they had to buy me a new color matched panel.

Bmw lack of quality on front crash parts 1200rt etc

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