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Thread: Octane Question

  1. #61
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    This is getting better than air vs nitrogen in your tires or BMW oil Vs the rest
    FYI in California we are blessed with the crappiest gas, do to the FEDERALLY mandated attatives, our octane is 1-2 points less than the rest of the nation 86-89-91

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    This thread has become the new oil thread. Some of the replies are downright stupid. Why is it Americans in general are mathematically impaired??? Let some marketing bozo call something Super, Hyper, Fantastic and some people blank out everything else. The BMW standard is 89 AKI, period. Read the frickin' numbers. As for the guy who thinks Super Duper 9x gives them better power and mileage, the science doesn't support your premise. Last but not least, don't look up the btu of octane. Most gas is 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane or a similar isomer. Guys, you are beating this dead horse to death. To the smart guys, fill 'er up with mid grade and ride on with a smile. To those who have ta run premium, filler 'er up with premium and ride on in ignorance. Ignorance is bliss, right? If you can get E-0 89 AKI, God bless you. I would buy it if I could find it. E-0 regular, I would leave alone, might buy E-0 premium though.
    Come on.........octane BTU is right above temperature HP.
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
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  3. #63
    Dress for fall & avoid it AlanColes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman48 View Post
    I certainly don't mean to belittle Alan Coles, but a number of you seem to be following his sources thinking this is scientific truth, and it's not...
    No offense or concern taken here Rainman, but, we do see this differently.

    I would point out that I don't believe I every suggested that I was providing any "scientific" evidence aside from the Engineer's statement. If I did, I didn't mean to. The closest I think I got to that would be referencing my conversation a while ago with a Shell petroleum engineer. Having done a split Biology/Geology major in university many years ago and taken both organic and inorganic chemistry, etc., I can assure you that anyone with a degree as a petroleum engineer from an accredited university is a scientist and that is who my source was for that conversation. Having said that, I stick to my previous contention that you don't need a scientific degree to figure this out (unless a scientific answer were required).

    I do believe that many are missing a very important point. When trying to identify what might/should be a correct interpretation of something that has inaccuracies in it (the BMW material I referenced), it is extremely common, but completely inappropriate to only focus on that which supports one position and ignore parts which are contrary to that position.

    I have tried to make absolutely certain that I have not done that, and, specifically identified that BMW does identify a name - Super unleaded and 2 numbers 95-RON and 89-AKI for my RTW. Also, as I point out earlier, for the new HP4 Race, BMW specifies "Superplus unleaded petrol, minimum octane number 98 (RON)". In Canada, at least, anything referred to as superplus, supreme+, etc., is 93-AKI not 91. By logical extension, that would put 95-RON at 91-AKI. As has been pointed out, there isn't a direct mathmatical link from RON to AKI without MON. That is because RON only measures octane under low severity engine operation (at a steady 600 rpm in a single cylinder engine and the compression ratio is increased until detonation occurs). MON measures it under more severe conditions but still in too controlled a state. AKI was brought in to give a slightly better reflection of real-world performance in road vehicles.

    My 2015 BMW RT Riders Manual reads:
    Recommended fuel grade
    Super unleaded (max. 10 % ethanol, E10)
    95 ROZ/RON
    89 AKI
    In that text, BMW identify 3 parameters which are not consistant with one another.

    As far as arriving at a "reasonable" idea of what BMW meant to say, this is really simple stuff. As simple as grade-school math where when you have the values of 2 angles of a triangle the 3rd angle is obvious.

    The same goes here. No need to get into working with math or hypothesising what might be within acceptable variations.

    There are precious few good examples available to show, so I showed what I could find quickly, but the far more important fact is that while the naming of gas grades varies significantly, there are very real consistancies that do align.

    In NA and Europe unleaded 91-AKI is traditionally identified as Super, or Premium, unleaded (not 100% but, I don't know maybe 85%-90% it was consistant enough that I never fixated on it). Every fuel pump I've noticed on either continent that had 98-RON referred to it a SuperPremium or some other such name not just Super or Premium, but always with an additional adjative. BMW also refers to 98-RON as Superplus, not Super.

    In Canada, Esso (Mobil in the US) use the following:
    Esso Extra Gasoline. Octane 89. ...
    Esso Supreme Gasoline. Octane 91. ...
    Esso SUPREME+ Gasoline. Octane 93
    The actual rule-of-thumb for RON to AKI conversions is 4-6, but, again, it can be most commonly seen as being referenced as being either 4 or 5 and very rarely as 6. Part of the problem is that the actual spread between RON and AKI is greatest at high RON numbers and least at low RON numbers, but in the mid-range of most public vehicle gas, 95-RON and 93-RON, it is close to 4.

    That is precisely why I asked the Shell Engineer on three (3) seperate occassions in the conversation, what the 95-RON would equate to in AKI with their gas, and as stated, his reply was that Shell 95-RON is 91-AKI.

    As I said, when you use all of these factors, the naming conventions, etc., and try to lineup the RON to AKI, the chart from pencilgeek is the one that fits all parameters best. Is it scientific proof? Absolutely not. Does common-sense suggest that it is correct? Yes.

    This is from Petro-Canada:
    ... As a rule, the recommended octane rating can be determined by subtracting four (4) from the recommended RON number. A vehicle that calls for "91 RON" should use 87 octane gasoline (as measured by the (R + M) / 2 method)
    Again, by extension that should mean 93-RON = 89-AKI, and 95-RON = 91-AKI.

    Another gas companies material stating this. And all 3 gas companies I've referenced use consistant terminology that aligns with the table I provided.

    The reality is that it isn't easy to parse this stuff out for some reason, but it really shouldn't matter, if Shell, Esso and Petro-Canada (actual gas companies) information isn't going to sway someone and they are willing to do some gymnastics to twist and/or ignore conflicting BMW material which has likely been translated from German into English, than they've already made their mind up and no amount of credible information will change that.
    Regards, Alan - President BMWONS - MOA Charter Club #097, BMWMOA/BMWRA/BMWONS/Airheads
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  4. #64
    Addicted to curves azgman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    This thread has become the new oil thread. Some of the replies are downright stupid. Why is it Americans in general are mathematically impaired??? Let some marketing bozo call something Super, Hyper, Fantastic and some people blank out everything else. The BMW standard is 89 AKI, period. Read the frickin' numbers. As for the guy who thinks Super Duper 9x gives them better power and mileage, the science doesn't support your premise. Last but not least, don't look up the btu of octane. Most gas is 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane or a similar isomer. Guys, you are beating this dead horse to death. To the smart guys, fill 'er up with mid grade and ride on with a smile. To those who have ta run premium, filler 'er up with premium and ride on in ignorance. Ignorance is bliss, right? If you can get E-0 89 AKI, God bless you. I would buy it if I could find it. E-0 regular, I would leave alone, might buy E-0 premium though.
    Amen, brother!
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    Think that would be anecdotal evidence.
    Anecdotal, based on empirical experience??

  6. #66
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Come on.........octane BTU is right above temperature HP.
    Damn you, I will rise to your bait

    Should be a Trout breaking water with a fly stuck in it's lip for a smiley.

    First as I said this is a list.

    Preferred first 91.
    If the preferred is not available, you use the second, 89.

    The number cruncher s proof that out 91, 89 AK47.

    I use 93 as Shell does not have 91 in my area. I do not buy into super sizes or are hung up on snazzy names but we have 91 and 93 gas no matter what you call them Super, Premium, Triple Pounder what ever!

    My car is KTuned on 93 Octane gas.

    My RT is Dyno Tuned on 93 Octane gas.

    I worked for Hess in the 70's. We had PA inspectors come out to our pumps to verify them by certified containers to proof out we were giving the amount we should. The also would stick our tanks for water. They would spread a paste that reacts to water. We were allowed so much water depending on the size of the tank since that was 45 years ago I do not remember the numbers. We stuck the tank at every shift change for water and to make sure volume equaled sales. If we hit a water number we shut down the pumps and we had to pump our underground tank. This involved calling in maintenance trucks. Also we were sampled for product. So they were testing for correct fuel being dispensed.

    I mention all that as I do not know if all that is done by State or Federal any longer? Also all our gas came in a Hess Truck, but not all of it was refined Hess gas. While Leon Hess did have a huge deep water refinery in Saint Croix U.S. Virgin Islands, even he could not have supplied all the gas his stations needed over time. The drivers were closed lipped but some would mention the mixing of the grades of gas in their multi sectioned trucks at the gas depot's.

    Again never know where your gas is coming from as mentioned.

    And finally to BTU

    "When you pull up to a gas pump to buy gasoline, are you aware that what comes out of the pump can vary with the seasons of the year? Is not Gasoline gas? The US government formulates the gas for seasonal changes; summer and winter.

    One US gallon of gasoline contains 114,000 BTU of energy; depending on the time of year, and depending on what is in the gasoline. It is getting harder to find gasoline's that does not contain 5 to 10% of Ethanol. Ethanol is ethyl alcohol; the kind of alcohol in beverages; beer, whiskey, bourbon, vodka, cocktails, etc.. It takes one and a half US gallons of ethanol to equal the energy in one US gallon of gasoline; the reason... because ethanol only has 76,100 BTU's of energy per gallon. Less energy means less miles per gallon. In 2007 George W. Bush made it possible for gas stations to sell Gasohol (E10) without labeling the pumps; in other words, you may not know alcohol is in the gas. Ever wonder where your gas mileage went?

    Gasoline's blended with Ethanol will lower MPG in most engines. The EPA says Fuel efficiency can decrease by 1.5 to 3% but reports of 40 % are not unheard of. In winter, you get less mileage out of a tank of gas; we waste a lot of gas warming up our vehicles, but what about trips? Winter gasoline contains less BTUs per gallon, 112, 500; if you are using 100% gasoline (non-ethanol). A lot of States no longer sell 100% gasoline it at the pumps. They choose Ethanol in the gasoline as a way to meet the Clean Air Act emissions standard. If you have a vehicle that was made before 1990, it is most likely not compatible with alcohol in fuels. Alcohol deteriorates the gaskets and seals that touch the fuel will fail. Alcohol affects the engines timing; makes the engine work harder. Many engine manufacturers prohibit the use of alcohol in the fuel; it is not just cars and trucks; industrial engines, generators, lawnmowers, weed eaters; all gasoline powered engines are affected. It is the BTUs that allows us to get the best fuel economy. Adding alcohol, of any kind, to gasoline, dilutes the fuel and lowers the heat energy."

    "The British thermal unit (symbol Btu or sometimes BTU) is a traditional unit of energy equal to about 1055 joules. It is approximately the amount of energy needed to heat 1 pound (0.454 kg) of water, which is exactly one tenth of a UK gallon or about 0.1198 US gallons, from 39F to 40F (3.8C to 4.4C).[1] The unit is most often used in the power, steam generation, heating and air conditioning industries. In scientific contexts the Btu has largely been replaced by the SI unit of energy, the joule, though it may be used as a measure of agricultural energy production (Btu/kg).[verification needed] It is still used in metric English-speaking countries (such as Canada), and remains the standard unit of classification for air conditioning units manufactured and sold in many non-English-speaking metric countries. "

    "Joules are a measure of energy or work. Common units are Joules, BTU, calories, KW-hours. Different forms of energy include kinetic, potential, thermal, gravitational, sound, light, elastic, and electromagnetic energy.
    Power in watts is the RATE that energy is used or generated. One watt is one Joule per second. Other units of power are the kW, BTU/hour, calories/second.
    Example, a 100 watt light bulb is using energy at the rate of 100 joules per second.
    lifting a 1000 kg weight 5 meters high is an amount of work of 1000*5=5000 joules, and if you did that in 10 seconds, that would be an average power of 5000J/10s or 500 watts."

    As a final note BTU does not affect Octane rating. It only affects MPG as being discussed in the above article.
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

  7. #67
    LF,
    You have a mixture of right and wrong in your post. Let me start at the end, BTU's. First, as you say, BTU's have absolutely NOTHING to do with octane. If you bought a gallon of Shell 89 AKI, Sunoco, Marathon, or any 5 or so other gasolines of the same knock rating across town and tested their BTU output, my money would be on none of them will be the same. The excuse for using ethanol was initially to use it as an anti-knock agent to replace tetra-ethyl lead. The mix did, as you say reduce the amount of BTU's of the mix. When you add "up to" 10% ethanol, that's a no brainer. It also adds confusion because, if I'm not mistaten, and I could be, ethanol and whatever gas is being used is not a solution that is evenly mixed. Also as you say there are different blends of gas. Various gas producers also use isomers of pentane, sever isomers, almost no one uses octane. It's just too hard to produce and not worth the effort.

    There is a large distribution center for the Upstate of SC, NC and GA near me. The additive packages and mixtures are different in the Summer and Winter as well as altitude. Just an anecdotal example: when I fill my GS, and my previous FJR here in Spartanburg, SC I would get significantly less miles per tank than when I would fuel west of the Blue Ridge which was 5-600 feet higher. I also have experimented with non-alcohol blends and no matter what the mix was I ALWAYS got better mileage without alcohol. Anyone with any type of scientific background can figure out the reason for that.

    In riding a bunch of Triumphs and various Japanese bikes I have seen owners manuals state Ron, Mon, Pump, etc as the specified octane. IMO, AKI is the most simple method to sort this out.

    Since I retired a couple of weeks aga, I can spew BS on this topic all day long; however, my synapses probably only have a finite number of firings left. Therefore, IMO this is a tempest in a teapot. LOL
    Old But Not Dead
    Semper Fi

  8. #68
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFarling View Post
    Damn you, I will rise to your bait

    Should be a Trout breaking water with a fly stuck in it's lip for a smiley.

    First as I said this is a list.

    Preferred first 91.
    If the preferred is not available, you use the second, 89.

    The number cruncher s proof that out 91, 89 AK47.

    I use 93 as Shell does not have 91 in my area. I do not buy into super sizes or are hung up on snazzy names but we have 91 and 93 gas no matter what you call them Super, Premium, Triple Pounder what ever!

    My car is KTuned on 93 Octane gas.

    My RT is Dyno Tuned on 93 Octane gas.

    I worked for Hess in the 70's. We had PA inspectors come out to our pumps to verify them by certified containers to proof out we were giving the amount we should. The also would stick our tanks for water. They would spread a paste that reacts to water. We were allowed so much water depending on the size of the tank since that was 45 years ago I do not remember the numbers. We stuck the tank at every shift change for water and to make sure volume equaled sales. If we hit a water number we shut down the pumps and we had to pump our underground tank. This involved calling in maintenance trucks. Also we were sampled for product. So they were testing for correct fuel being dispensed.

    I mention all that as I do not know if all that is done by State or Federal any longer? Also all our gas came in a Hess Truck, but not all of it was refined Hess gas. While Leon Hess did have a huge deep water refinery in Saint Croix U.S. Virgin Islands, even he could not have supplied all the gas his stations needed over time. The drivers were closed lipped but some would mention the mixing of the grades of gas in their multi sectioned trucks at the gas depot's.

    Again never know where your gas is coming from as mentioned.

    And finally to BTU

    "When you pull up to a gas pump to buy gasoline, are you aware that what comes out of the pump can vary with the seasons of the year? Is not Gasoline gas? The US government formulates the gas for seasonal changes; summer and winter.

    One US gallon of gasoline contains 114,000 BTU of energy; depending on the time of year, and depending on what is in the gasoline. It is getting harder to find gasoline's that does not contain 5 to 10% of Ethanol. Ethanol is ethyl alcohol; the kind of alcohol in beverages; beer, whiskey, bourbon, vodka, cocktails, etc.. It takes one and a half US gallons of ethanol to equal the energy in one US gallon of gasoline; the reason... because ethanol only has 76,100 BTU's of energy per gallon. Less energy means less miles per gallon. In 2007 George W. Bush made it possible for gas stations to sell Gasohol (E10) without labeling the pumps; in other words, you may not know alcohol is in the gas. Ever wonder where your gas mileage went?

    Gasoline's blended with Ethanol will lower MPG in most engines. The EPA says Fuel efficiency can decrease by 1.5 to 3% but reports of 40 % are not unheard of. In winter, you get less mileage out of a tank of gas; we waste a lot of gas warming up our vehicles, but what about trips? Winter gasoline contains less BTUs per gallon, 112, 500; if you are using 100% gasoline (non-ethanol). A lot of States no longer sell 100% gasoline it at the pumps. They choose Ethanol in the gasoline as a way to meet the Clean Air Act emissions standard. If you have a vehicle that was made before 1990, it is most likely not compatible with alcohol in fuels. Alcohol deteriorates the gaskets and seals that touch the fuel will fail. Alcohol affects the engines timing; makes the engine work harder. Many engine manufacturers prohibit the use of alcohol in the fuel; it is not just cars and trucks; industrial engines, generators, lawnmowers, weed eaters; all gasoline powered engines are affected. It is the BTUs that allows us to get the best fuel economy. Adding alcohol, of any kind, to gasoline, dilutes the fuel and lowers the heat energy."

    "The British thermal unit (symbol Btu or sometimes BTU) is a traditional unit of energy equal to about 1055 joules. It is approximately the amount of energy needed to heat 1 pound (0.454 kg) of water, which is exactly one tenth of a UK gallon or about 0.1198 US gallons, from 39F to 40F (3.8C to 4.4C).[1] The unit is most often used in the power, steam generation, heating and air conditioning industries. In scientific contexts the Btu has largely been replaced by the SI unit of energy, the joule, though it may be used as a measure of agricultural energy production (Btu/kg).[verification needed] It is still used in metric English-speaking countries (such as Canada), and remains the standard unit of classification for air conditioning units manufactured and sold in many non-English-speaking metric countries. "

    "Joules are a measure of energy or work. Common units are Joules, BTU, calories, KW-hours. Different forms of energy include kinetic, potential, thermal, gravitational, sound, light, elastic, and electromagnetic energy.
    Power in watts is the RATE that energy is used or generated. One watt is one Joule per second. Other units of power are the kW, BTU/hour, calories/second.
    Example, a 100 watt light bulb is using energy at the rate of 100 joules per second.
    lifting a 1000 kg weight 5 meters high is an amount of work of 1000*5=5000 joules, and if you did that in 10 seconds, that would be an average power of 5000J/10s or 500 watts."

    As a final note BTU does not affect Octane rating. It only affects MPG as being discussed in the above article.
    That's a lot verbiage to say .......... the heat energy of E10 is 96.7% of Pure Gas. If Pure Gas of the same octane rating cost you less than 3.4% more per gallon, then the pure gas is a better deal. If it costs more than 3.4% over E10, you're paying extra for the same amount of BTU's.

    In my area, we have the following options at a local Sheetz convenience store

    E10 Regular......(87 AKI)....$2.65/gal.....110,200 BTU/gal......41,585 BTU/$
    E10 Mid Grade..(89 AKI).....$2.85/gal.....110,200 BTU/gal.....38,668 BTU/$
    E10 Premium....(91 AKI).....$3.15/gal.....110,200 BTU/gal.....34.985 BTU/$
    E15................(88 AKI).....$2.59/gal.....108,315 BTU/gal.....41,820 BTU/$
    E85................(?? AKI).....$2.25/gal.......81,785 BTU/gal.....36,350 BTU/$

    If you can run something less than 89AKI octane, either the E10 Regular or E15 cost, nominally, the same on a BTU/dollar basis. Using a higher octane rating fuel only costs you more for the same heat energy.
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
    1) My expectations are never low enough & 2) Incompetence is infinite ........David Brooks

  9. #69
    Registered User LFarling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chewbacca View Post
    LF,
    You have a mixture of right and wrong in your post. Let me start at the end, BTU's. First, as you say, BTU's have absolutely NOTHING to do with octane. If you bought a gallon of Shell 89 AKI, Sunoco, Marathon, or any 5 or so other gasolines of the same knock rating across town and tested their BTU output, my money would be on none of them will be the same. The excuse for using ethanol was initially to use it as an anti-knock agent to replace tetra-ethyl lead. The mix did, as you say reduce the amount of BTU's of the mix. When you add "up to" 10% ethanol, that's a no brainer. It also adds confusion because, if I'm not mistaten, and I could be, ethanol and whatever gas is being used is not a solution that is evenly mixed. Also as you say there are different blends of gas. Various gas producers also use isomers of pentane, sever isomers, almost no one uses octane. It's just too hard to produce and not worth the effort.

    There is a large distribution center for the Upstate of SC, NC and GA near me. The additive packages and mixtures are different in the Summer and Winter as well as altitude. Just an anecdotal example: when I fill my GS, and my previous FJR here in Spartanburg, SC I would get significantly less miles per tank than when I would fuel west of the Blue Ridge which was 5-600 feet higher. I also have experimented with non-alcohol blends and no matter what the mix was I ALWAYS got better mileage without alcohol. Anyone with any type of scientific background can figure out the reason for that.

    In riding a bunch of Triumphs and various Japanese bikes I have seen owners manuals state Ron, Mon, Pump, etc as the specified octane. IMO, AKI is the most simple method to sort this out.

    Since I retired a couple of weeks aga, I can spew BS on this topic all day long; however, my synapses probably only have a finite number of firings left. Therefore, IMO this is a tempest in a teapot. LOL
    As long as we are riding life is good.

    And as to ethanol and gas mixing it results in drawing water and can cause phase separation.

    http://www.fuel-testers.com/expirati...hanol_gas.html

    I treat all my gas with Star Tron and Yamaha Ring Free

    https://www.westmarine.com/buy/yamal...FVVMDQodsTsC1g

    I have used Ring Free for 15 + years or so and on my 05 FLTRI Road Glide when I put in a 98" jug and piston kit the OEM piston tops and the head were very clean. The guy who ported the heads remarked how clean they were. From what I understand it is super concentrate Techron Fuel additive which I used until I found Ring Free.

    I got about 700 on last week, and Sunday we grabbed 330 or so. Mostly been riding, wiping bugs, snapping pictures, and of course putting gas in the tank.

    I will continue to use 91 as my hope for and use gas when away from home, and 89 or whatever to get me home. I was at a steady cruise at 65 miles an hour, for a long period of time. About 12-15% TPS running 14.1- 14.3 AFR and got the best mileage I have ever gotten from the bike since new, 47 MPG. I usually am 36-40 depending, if I am in a hilly,valley hauling the mail, using throttle and compression to help me work through the twisties, same if I am running 75 or 85+ steady long periods of time I can dip into 32-35 MPG.

    It is only gas. But man I am seeing PA on this 70 point Odds and Ends list. 70 Counties in PA. 70 items to chase down with your number and bike in a picture of said item. Cool way to make you get out and ride.

    Thanks for letting me play along.............
    2015 R 1200 RT LC
    San Marino Blue
    Dark Side 205/50/ZR17

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