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Thread: New law on Lane Sharing / Splitting .. how do you read this?

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    Hey brownie - You're the one digging up posts that are almost a year old and throwing them back into the arena.

    Then complaining that "traction to be argumentative" still exists. Geesh.

    That's classy.

    FYI, I visited my daughter in Torrance this past June, and drove from there to San Diego and back in a day, to visit a brother-in-law who resides in Mira Mesa.

    Every time motorcycles buzzed past my driver's door, I was well beyond going 30 MPH, and they were quite a bit over 10 MPH faster than me.

    Nice 'rules' on the CHP brochures, but in practice, they were ignored.
    I followed 2 Hawthorne motor officers lane splitting last year who were doing 45 when traffic was doing 5-10 stop and go too. Because they are "tips" and not "rules" of law, the motor officers weren't violating any Ca. codes either. I followed them out of the parking lot to the highway after a day of their "ride to live" course.

    If you don't like lane splitting, stay to frig out of states that allow it. Then you don't have to put up with something you detest others are doing in your presence.

    As for the rest of your post, see beemerdood's post.

    Geesh, I still can't believe you'd whine about lane splitting, either others doing it or your not willing to do it. Who cares why you don't like it or won't consider it. You have the power to solve your dilemma, stay out of states that allow it, or ignore people who are lane splitting.
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  2. #77
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    While your suggested 'solution of staying out of CA' sounds reasonable to you, doesn't work for me. I have relation in CA and a desire to visit them, so their invitations trump your dismissal.

    As for how I view lane splitting, I consider it at the very least, an aggressive method of operation, with personal observations that the "tips' and 'guidelines' a joke and rarely adhered to so why even have them.


    In theory, lane splitting was to filter smaller, thinner vehicles past long lines of slow or halted traffic, thus relieving congestion.

    What I see are bikers zooming around on freeways that are already moving at or above the posted speed, because they can - not because they need to. The intent of the law might have looked good on paper, but its application is something totally different.


    You and I wiil each ride to our own definitions of safety and a positive image to the non-riding public, and no worries.

    Have a nice day.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    While your suggested 'solution of staying out of CA' sounds reasonable to you, doesn't work for me. I have relation in CA and a desire to visit them, so their invitations trump your dismissal.

    As for how I view lane splitting, I consider it at the very least, an aggressive method of operation, with personal observations that the "tips' and 'guidelines' a joke and rarely adhered to so why even have them.


    In theory, lane splitting was to filter smaller, thinner vehicles past long lines of slow or halted traffic, thus relieving congestion.

    What I see are bikers zooming around on freeways that are already moving at or above the posted speed, because they can - not because they need to. The intent of the law might have looked good on paper, but its application is something totally different.


    You and I wiil each ride to our own definitions of safety and a positive image to the non-riding public, and no worries.

    Have a nice day.
    Well, in Ca., the cars were moving over to allow the bikes to move through, as they are by law supposed to do. There was no sign of a negative image or positive image from Ca. drivers, having an understanding of that law, they parted like the red sea. Sometimes 10-12 cars ahead were already moving out of the way for the lane splitter/s. Seemed to me, that wasn't a negative image in any stretch of the imagination.

    Personally, I'd never done that before, but those two leo's led the way, and I kept up till they pulled off an exit and I continued on for another near hour leaving the LA basin in heavy traffic. If I'm in a cage, I'll move over and give a bike the room if they are lane splitting. Now, image, that's an interesting play on personal opinion of lane splitting, because there are a LOT of motorcycles in Ca. lane splitting. That suggests it's common enough to have been accepted by cagers as law.

    Now, what you may be describing isn't actually lane splittng at all. Maybe it's beyond the letter and spirit of the law and what you're observing is illegal, but has been simply misread as lane splitting.

    You still have the choice of not going to LA. You also have the choice to allow your BP to rise over it or just accept the fact it's law, and lane splitting is allowed.
    The lion does not even bother to turn his head when he hears the small dog barking.

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  4. #79
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    Lane splitting

    Finest example of lane splitting I have seen, in Budapest on bridge crossing the Danube 4 lanes of traffic with motorcycles lane splitting opposing lanes of traffic in that bit of space between opposing lanes motorcycles lane splitting were were also going both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    As for how I view lane splitting, I consider it at the very least, an aggressive method of operation,
    You say that as if it was a bad thing. Motorcycles are about as far as one gets from passive. By their very nature they're faster than all but the slowest of cars. The disadvantages of a lack of protection from the elements, gravity and other vehicles, are more than compensated for by the mobility, freedom, and ability to fit into smaller spaces than a car.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    with personal observations that the "tips' and 'guidelines' a joke and rarely adhered to so why even have them.
    It seems to me that no matter how many times you get corrected, (and it's been a couple of time in just this thread) you hang onto the "tips and guidelines" issued by the CHP, as if they were in fact, laws, and therefor enforceable. Once more, they're not. "Tips and guidelines" are just that. People ARE NOT REQUIRED to "adhere" to them.

    They have the same effect as a recommendation that you 'get the beef for dinner.' You are still free to order, the pork, the fish, the pasta or anything else that appeals to you. They have the same effect as "advisory signs" in most states. Those are the signs that have bene placed for example, before entering turns on a mountain road. They show an arrow, indicating the direction of the turn, and an ADVISORY SPEED. In most states, that's just a recommendation and is not enforceable. That's the form that the CA "tips and guidelines" on lane splitting take. Your hang‒up on this, especially for a LEO, is very strange.

    If an LEO thinks that a rider is riding in an unsafe manner, he's free to stop and cite that rider, even if he's riding UNDER the speeds and speed differential described in the "tips and guidelines."

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    In theory, lane splitting was to filter smaller, thinner vehicles past long lines of slow or halted traffic, thus relieving congestion.
    Yes, I'll agree with this, adding that it reduces congestion for all, and makes it much safer for the motorcyclist.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    What I see are bikers zooming around on freeways that are already moving at or above the posted speed, [b] because they can - not because they need to. [b]
    I have no idea how "not because they need to" enters into this discussion. People ride bikes because they want to, "not because they need to." For most of us anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    The intent of the law might have looked good on paper, but its application is something totally different.
    As someone who's been lane splitting in CA for over 55 years, I can tell you that "the application" is working quite well. The fact that you are so concerned about a few, a very few, bikers who exceed the "tips and guidelines" is 'interesting.' But it makes no sense to oppose it because in your very limited experience you've seen some bikers who exceeded the "tips and guidelines" established by the CHP. Might as well outlaw motorcycles completely because some riders speed, run from the police, do wheelies on surface streets, and otherwise behave badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    You and I wiil each ride to our own definitions of safety and a positive image to the non-riding public, and no worries.
    I get to lane split whenever I want. You, OTOH can't unless you're working and are taking some enforcement action. Even if you wanted to lane split, where you live, it might get you a ticket. So even if your "definition of safety and a positive image to the non-riding public" included lane splitting, you don't have the choice. I think that the only reason that it's of any concern "to the non-riding public" is that they're ignorant of the advantages to them. In such an environment, it takes quite a bit of education before they'll get it.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by brownie0486 View Post
    Well, in Ca., the cars were moving over to allow the bikes to move through, as they are by law supposed to do.
    I've had this, or similar discussions with Greenwald before. Back then, I mentioned that on freeway rides that last longer than an hour, during which I've been lane splitting, that I wave "thanks" to so many drivers who pull to the other side of the lane to let me pass, that my arm gets tired.

    Quote Originally Posted by brownie0486 View Post
    There was no sign of a negative image or positive image from Ca. drivers, having an understanding of that law, they parted like the red sea. Sometimes 10-12 cars ahead were already moving out of the way for the lane splitter/s. Seemed to me, that wasn't a negative image in any stretch of the imagination.
    We've also discussed this phenomena. I've said that if lane splitting was to be made legal elsewhere, that it would take lots of education in the form of PSAs, brochures, flyers in mailings from the DMVs. People need to be educated that the bikers are not 'cutting in line' in front of them, that actually, they're allowing those in cars to move forward a bike length.

    Quote Originally Posted by brownie0486 View Post
    Personally, I'd never done that before, but those two leo's led the way, and I kept up till they pulled off an exit and I continued on for another near hour leaving the LA basin in heavy traffic.
    The 'magic' you feel when first lane splitting, after riding in a state that does not permit it, is a fantastic sensation. It rivals the freedom that many feel the first time they ride a motorcycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by brownie0486 View Post
    You still have the choice of not going to LA. You also have the choice to allow your BP to rise over it or just accept the fact it's law, and lane splitting is allowed.
    Some people are against others having fun. Some people in positions of power pass laws to restrict this. Some oppose the passage of laws that permit it. Greenwald seems to be in agreement with these groups.

    Elsewhere I've written about a moderately lengthy trip that I just returned from. It covered 18 states. As soon as I left CA, I could no longer legally lane split. In MO I took an exit off the freeway, and was stuck at the end of a line of trucks that extended all the way up the off ramp, such that I was hanging out into the traffic lane with cars flying past me at 70 mph, while I was stopped behind a semi trailer. I quickly said F this and hit the split between vehicles, moving out of that lethal area. Being struck from behind at those speeds was probably not survivable.

    In Louisiana, there was a large traffic jam and I was forced to ride in traffic for over an hour. I dutifully stayed in traffic, but my clutch hand was starting to cramp, just as traffic opened up. A couple of times I saw that the driver behind me was on his phone, both talking on it while holding it to his ear or either texting, looking at a map program, reading email, or something along those lines. I pulled to the left shoulder and let him pass. The next driver, behind him was much better.

    Not being allowed to lane split, put me at great risk in both of these situations. If I lived somewhere that lane splitting wasn't legal, I'd be part of a group to see that it was legalized. It's legal in most of the world and speeds motorcyclists on their way, reducing traffic congestion, and making bikers safer than they would be if they were sitting in traffic.

    For those who haven't read all the messages ‒ earlier in this discussion I wrote this.
    The most recent study that I've seen comes from the Safe Transportation Research & Education Center, University of California, Berkeley, and was done in 2015. They studied almost 6,000 motorcycle accidents. About 1,000 of there were LSM (lane splitting motorcyclists). Here's a comment from the Abstract.
    Lane-splitting appears to be a relatively safe motorcycle riding strategy if done in traffic moving at 50 MPH or less and if motorcyclists do not exceed the speed of other vehicles by more than 15 MPH. A significant number of motorcyclists lane-split in fast-moving traffic or at excessive speed differentials. These riders could lower their risk of injury by restricting the environments in which they lane-split and by reducing their speed differential when they do choose to lanesplit. [Emphasis is mine]
    http://www.ots.ca.gov/pdf/Publicatio...afety-2015.pdf

  7. #82
    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
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    As (un)interesting this thread is(‘nt), I continue to be disappointed that we are stuck looking down at our case guards yammering on about how great/horrible lane splitting is. While the rest of the world is trying to figure out how we transition from zero autonomy vehicles (you drive it) to fully autonomous vehicles the BMW MOA is missing out on our (individual and BMW MOA/and Foundation) chance to participate in defining how that transition goes and what the ridding world will look like in the future.

    Fully autonomous vehicles are in the future. What they look like, how they function and interact with the world around them is being decided now. In very broad headings the outcome will be determined by the dynamic development of infrastructure, regulations/laws, and technology. The development of one affects the other.

    Fully autonomous vehicles have infrastructure planners thinking about what a lane is, how wide does it need to be, how many vehicles will it move v what a lane does now, and as a result how many lanes do I need to move traffic? This discussion is going on now in Fly-Over-Land. Local governments and planners are thinking out into the future for how we are building roads now.

    The technology side holds the dream of accident-free transportation. How much of a reality or dream that is is dependent on the technology being able to understand the rules for the cars, other vehicles, non-autonomous vehicles, pedestrians, bicyclists etc. The future development work is highly dependent on the current infrastructure and regulation development being done now.

    What lane splitting means now is not what many of these developers see in the future. In some urban planning discussions, motorcycles may not share lanes with autonomous cars but be moved into bus lanes and in same cases lane sharing with bicyclists.

    Go back and read the law from the original post and look at subsection C.

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=201520160AB51

    Lane splitting is a worldwide phenomenon, not just a Cali - Fly-Over-Land provincial thing. California is the US home to technology firms developing autonomous vehicle technology and the most motorcyclists/lane splitters in our country. What they develop is the issue.

    BMW AG is a serious player in the development of autonomous vehicles including motorcycles. The recent self-driving motorcycle announced is the latest in the development line of motorcycles that talk with cars, self-balance and more. The development of these cars and motorcycles will continue and eventually make it to the road. I may not buy one but I want them to recognize my Luddite Roadster as a motorcycle and not something else.

    Subsection C 4) is where I wish the MOA and the Foundation were spending its time.

    (c) In developing guidelines pursuant to this section, the department shall consult with agencies and organizations with an interest in road safety and motorcyclist behavior, including, but not limited to, all of the following:
    (1) The Department of Motor Vehicles.
    (2) The Department of Transportation.
    (3) The Office of Traffic Safety.
    [u](4) A motorcycle organization focused on motorcyclist safety.[/b]

    Why aren’t we (BMW MOA and the Foundation) working with groups like the legislature of California, BMW AG by way of our membership in the International BMW Club, and other settings to develop the infrastructure, technology and regulations/laws of the future ridding world?

    Trying to convert either side in this thread is a fool's errand even a knight-errant like Don Quixote would take up. Yet that is what we appear to be about.

  8. #83
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    Agree with Mika, this thread has degraded quite a bit... Can we get away from personal sniping and stick with actual facts?

    And speaking of which: the law does say that it is illegal to impede the progress of a 'splitter, but I don't recall seeing anything that says that cars are actually "required" to move out of our way - often, traffic conditions really won't allow that (construction, or narrow lanes in some places, like the Harbor Freeway 110 southbound just south of downtown L.A. is a great example, and there are a few choke points on the San Diego Freeway 405 southbound, southwest of L.A.) - Anybody want to point me to that phrase in the statutes?

    In my own experience, cars usually move out of recognition and politeness (it looks like a cop bike, and I have a headlight modulator...), and they certainly move for the Motor Officers because because they don't want the red 'n' blinkies on them - I've seen them occasionally beep or flash a car so they could get through, and I've even been beeped too (first thought is "What did I do now??") to let them pass me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls1150 View Post
    Agree with Mika, this thread has degraded quite a bit... Can we get away from personal sniping and stick with actual facts?

    And speaking of which: the law does say that it is illegal to impede the progress of a 'splitter, but I don't recall seeing anything that says that cars are actually "required" to move out of our way - often, traffic conditions really won't allow that (construction, or narrow lanes in some places, like the Harbor Freeway 110 southbound just south of downtown L.A. is a great example, and there are a few choke points on the San Diego Freeway 405 southbound, southwest of L.A.) - Anybody want to point me to that phrase in the statutes?

    In my own experience, cars usually move out of recognition and politeness (it looks like a cop bike, and I have a headlight modulator...), and they certainly move for the Motor Officers because because they don't want the red 'n' blinkies on them - I've seen them occasionally beep or flash a car so they could get through, and I've even been beeped too (first thought is "What did I do now??") to let them pass me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mika View Post
    As (un)interesting this thread is(‘nt), I continue to be disappointed that we are stuck looking down at our case guards yammering on about how great/horrible lane splitting is. While the rest of the world is trying to figure out how we transition from zero autonomy vehicles (you drive it) to fully autonomous vehicles the BMW MOA is missing out on our (individual and BMW MOA/and Foundation) chance to participate in defining how that transition goes and what the ridding world will look like in the future.

    Fully autonomous vehicles are in the future. What they look like, how they function and interact with the world around them is being decided now. In very broad headings the outcome will be determined by the dynamic development of infrastructure, regulations/laws, and technology. The development of one affects the other.

    Fully autonomous vehicles have infrastructure planners thinking about what a lane is, how wide does it need to be, how many vehicles will it move v what a lane does now, and as a result how many lanes do I need to move traffic? This discussion is going on now in Fly-Over-Land. Local governments and planners are thinking out into the future for how we are building roads now.

    The technology side holds the dream of accident-free transportation. How much of a reality or dream that is is dependent on the technology being able to understand the rules for the cars, other vehicles, non-autonomous vehicles, pedestrians, bicyclists etc. The future development work is highly dependent on the current infrastructure and regulation development being done now.

    What lane splitting means now is not what many of these developers see in the future. In some urban planning discussions, motorcycles may not share lanes with autonomous cars but be moved into bus lanes and in same cases lane sharing with bicyclists.

    Go back and read the law from the original post and look at subsection C.

    https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...=201520160AB51

    Lane splitting is a worldwide phenomenon, not just a Cali - Fly-Over-Land provincial thing. California is the US home to technology firms developing autonomous vehicle technology and the most motorcyclists/lane splitters in our country. What they develop is the issue.

    BMW AG is a serious player in the development of autonomous vehicles including motorcycles. The recent self-driving motorcycle announced is the latest in the development line of motorcycles that talk with cars, self-balance and more. The development of these cars and motorcycles will continue and eventually make it to the road. I may not buy one but I want them to recognize my Luddite Roadster as a motorcycle and not something else.

    Subsection C 4) is where I wish the MOA and the Foundation were spending its time.

    (c) In developing guidelines pursuant to this section, the department shall consult with agencies and organizations with an interest in road safety and motorcyclist behavior, including, but not limited to, all of the following:
    (1) The Department of Motor Vehicles.
    (2) The Department of Transportation.
    (3) The Office of Traffic Safety.
    [u](4) A motorcycle organization focused on motorcyclist safety.[/b]

    Why aren’t we (BMW MOA and the Foundation) working with groups like the legislature of California, BMW AG by way of our membership in the International BMW Club, and other settings to develop the infrastructure, technology and regulations/laws of the future ridding world?

    Trying to convert either side in this thread is a fool's errand even a knight-errant like Don Quixote would take up. Yet that is what we appear to be about.
    Mika - You raise some interesting scenarios.

    Personally, I don't think this 'push to autonomous transportation' is going very well. Seems like it's being rushed to market, albeit still in the testing phase, and not doing well.

    Seems the same has been true for many computer operating systems, constantly in need of patches, updates and fixes. And 'speech recognition' software. Woefully lacking in efficiency, yet we're forced to argue with it every day.

    I remember enjoying Arthur C. Clarke's Profiles of the Future, where he prophesized so many innovations, medical advances, exploration, colonization and progress in our social structures - and yet, here we are in 2018, and much of what was in that book has failed to come to pass. Not his fault, per se - he was just a bit too optimistic a visionary.

    I think calling "lane splitting a worldwide phenomenon" is giving it a bit too much credit. In hopelessly crowded urban areas around the world, where scooters and low-to-moderate cc motorcycles are numerous due to cost, gas efficiency, high fuel costs and vehicle-ownership being too expensive for the masses, lane splitting evolved for those reasons.

    I think we are generations away from autonomous transportation being the norm, if for no other reason than we barely keep our aging infrastructure manageable as is - a redesign is financially a long way off. I hope so - where is the fun in that?!

    Enjoy the present - especially on two wheels!
    Last edited by greenwald; 10-06-2018 at 01:04 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    I think calling "lane splitting a worldwide phenomenon" is giving it a bit too much credit.


    I certainly don't. It's done in most of Europe and Asia and works quite well to reduce congestion. Imagine if thousands of bikes were suddenly required to ride in traffic lanes, instead of riding in the splits, completely removing themselves from the traffic lanes. Traffic would quickly come to a standstill.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    In hopelessly crowded urban areas around the world, where scooters and low-to-moderate cc motorcycles are numerous due to cost, gas efficiency, high fuel costs and vehicle-ownership being too expensive for the masses, lane splitting evolved for those reasons.
    NONE of those reasons are responsible for the existence of lane splitting in California, or for the push to legalize it in several states. It's completely irrelevant.

    Your apparent reason for opposing lane splitting in the US, because some riders exceed the "tips and guidelines" issued by the CHP, makes no sense. MANY drivers and riders exceed speed limits, even though they're clearly posted and ARE enforceable. The "tips and guidelines" are just that, SUGGESTIONS and RECOMMENDATIONS. They're NOT enforceable, yet the reason that you've given that you oppose lane splitting is because, in your very limited experience, some riders exceeded them. Completely illogical, it seems to me.

    As to the "sniping," that suddenly you oppose, had you not started it in the revival of this thread, we'd probably not have it. Your first post contains at least two snide comments aimed at another member, that set the tone for what came after.

  12. #87
    Lane Splitting: Here is what I have known for at least three years. Kevin doesn't like it and thinks it is dangerous and irresponsible. Many California riders like it, do it, and think it is better than being rear ended by dolts in traffic. I tried it on one ride in 1999 when visiting California and following a local rider from his house to the start of the Iron Butt Rally. It scared me because I was not at all used to it. I did it once in Spain following a BMW staffer to the race track from the hotel at the press launch for the K1200R. It scared me because I wasn't at all used to it but at least 10 bikes did it as we headed to the track.

    My takeaway: if you have done or do it a lot it seems OK. If you do it once or twice it is scary. If you don't do it you probably don't like it. It is legal in California. Not just not illegal. Legal, as in the law specifically says it is OK. So, "when in Rome" ...
    Paul Glaves - "Big Bend", Texas U.S.A
    "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." - Bertrand Russell
    http://web.bigbend.net/~glaves/

  13. #88
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    The important take away for me is to live and ride as much as possible in locations where there is no need to lane split, legal or not.

    If I were to find myself in California and in heavy traffic, then I doubt I would lane split. If I lived in California again and lived where there is heavy traffic, then I likely would lane split.
    Kevin Huddy
    The Outpost, Silver City, Montana

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    The important take away for me is to live and ride as much as possible in locations where there is no need to lane split, legal or not.

    If I were to find myself in California and in heavy traffic, then I doubt I would lane split. If I lived in California again and lived where there is heavy traffic, then I likely would lane split.
    I agree. I live 53 miles out of a town of 6,000 people. It is 53 miles to a grocery store, 25 miles to a gas pump, 125 miles to a Walmart, 200 miles to a mall, and 400 + miles to a BMW dealer, and we like it that way. I can ride to town on a 2 lane road with a 70 mph speed limit and maybe meet five vehicles. I would never again live where lane splitting seemed an option. Even when I worked in the Kansas City Metro lane splitting was not needed because I took the 2 lane back roads to work. Those who live any place lane splitting might be useful have my sincere condolences.
    Last edited by PGlaves; 10-06-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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  15. #90
    In the last 10 months I have ridden home from work over 180 times conservatively. All but maybe 5 of those days I split lanes for 10 to 15 minutes continuously along with filtering to up to intersections 3 to 4 times. Today at 2.45pm I filtered through two lights with essentially stopped traffic the entire way. traffic flowed to the last light before the freeway began where I filtered to the light. I then transitioned to the main hwy 1 south which was a parking lot for eight miles and the general mood was a bit edgy. I do not go very fast and its really good practice for bike handling. Over 90% of the people who ride on two wheels as a primary mode of transportation on this planet split lanes and filter. Get over it. Railing against it for any reason is more a fashion statement in that context. Frankly as a new person here it surprised me to see so many words on this. I feel the hot air is better spent convincing people to practice threshold braking and threat assessment. I do!
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