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Thread: New law on Lane Sharing / Splitting .. how do you read this?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    Actually, if you look, I already corrected myself in Post #12. You're late to the party.
    First, your post #12 was written while I was writing my response to your post #10 which misstated the law on lane sharing in California. How someone with "32+ years on the streets" could make such an egregious error, is difficult to understand. It only took me a couple of minutes to find the facts that I provided in my previous post. It appears that your apparent dislike for lane sharing has allowed you to be less–than–accurate in your writing on this matter.

    Second, I saw nothing in your post #12 that you"corrected yourself." You said that the lane sharing law in CA stated things that it did not. Nor was there an admission that you were wrong in your statement. It looked to me as if you just glossed over that fact. It's not a big deal, but your difficulty, perhaps your inability, to simply admit it, may tell us some things.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    And like I commented - if all you have to work with is "guidelines" and "recommendations," that explains much.
    The CVC (California Vehicle code) has never addressed the issue of lane sharing so the CHP's position was that it was legal. It was up to each law enforcement officer to use his discretion as to when a rider was being unsafe. Such things as speed of the rider, speed of traffic, lane width, roadway and traffic conditions, and the relative danger, were completely subjective and open to interpretation. Now that it's codified, the CHP has been "authorized to develop ... guidelines, ... consult with other ... safety agencies, and at least one organization focused on motorcycle safety." I'm confident that when these things have been completed, that legislators will put the results of those findings into the VC. Then riders will have specific rules to follow when they share lanes, and officers won't have to use solely their judgment as to when a violation has been committed. They'll have hard and fast guidelines to go by.

    In any case, please tell us what you mean by the statement, "if all you have to work with is 'guidelines' and 'recommendations,' that explains much." You also made a similar statement previously. What do YOU think it "explains?"

  2. #17
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    My dear beemerdood -

    Your commentary is getting a tad sarcastic and accusatory, but that's OK with me - thick skin. If we can't examine this phenomenon with objectivity, best we not discuss it at all.

    As Paul somewhat enthusiastically pointed out, I 'detest' lane splitting, though that's a bit too strongly worded - more like, I don't really consider it a 'safety option,' so much as simply a long-practiced convenience in your state.

    No need for us to go round and round on this - your passion for this practice is evident, so I'll not disturb your feelings on this issue.

    As I certainly do not wish you to lose sleep over the absence of an epic apology, I officially apologize for confusing guidelines with actual statutory requirements. If you wish to continue insulting my "experience and expertise," you are welcome to do so. After all, I am unaware of your credentials.


    Ride safe and often in your state!
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
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  3. #18
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    As always, this topic often ( sometimes always)brings diametrically opposed stances.

    Lets respect the difference of opinions and not go down the personal feelings rabbit hole .

    I have done it, not done it, wished I could do it and shook my head for some who practice it with no others safety in mind.
    It works where it works and a necessity in the toolbox of many riders where it is practiced. I move on.
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  4. #19
    FUKENGRUVEN SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    A proposed lane splitting law for Montana died in committee in the legislature for the second year in a row. Having a lane splitting law in Montana makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.
    Kevin Huddy
    Tm Pterodactyl MT Outpost

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    My dear beemerdood -

    Your commentary is getting a tad sarcastic
    You write, "My dear beemerdood" – and you say that I'm "getting a tad sarcastic?" LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    and accusatory,
    "[A]ccusatory?" You made a mistake. I caught it and called you on it. Then you claim that you had "corrected" it before I had a chance to post my reply. But in fact, you had neither corrected it, nor had you even admitted the error.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    but that's OK with me - thick skin. If we can't examine this phonemnum with objectivity, best we not discuss it at all.
    But we are "discuss[ing] it." And it does not seem, especially with your admission that you dislike lane sharing, that you are being objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    As Paul somewhat enthusiastically pointed out, I 'detest' lane splitting, though that's a bit too strongly worded - more like, I don't really consider it a 'safety option,' so much as simply a long-practiced convenience in your state.
    Traffic laws are based in safety of the traveling public. A good part of that involves keeping traffic moving, a matter of, as you say, "convenience." Rumors are that back in the day, when all motorcycles were air cooled, that lane sharing was permitted because it kept them moving so they did not overheat. But I've never seen that rumor confirmed. There have been several safety studies that show that lane sharing keeps traffic moving, and is safer for motorcyclists, but there have been some saying that there is no difference regarding safety. There may be some showing the reverse of the first one, I can't keep up.

    It seems obvious that that it does move traffic along, since the bikes aren't taking up space in traffic. I've seen both rear end collisions and bikers who have gone down while lane sharing. I had a good friend killed while lane sharing, but he was one of those who rode much too fast while passing traffic, and another one purposefully taken down (only slightly injured) by a driver who didn't think he should be riding past him in the same lane. I've seen several serious injuries from riders who were rear ended, while sitting in traffic. Generally the rear end collisions I've seen, resulted in far more serious injuries than from lane sharing. It's my opinion, formed through over 50 years of riding, and many years of accident investigation, that lane sharing, especially when done within the guidelines suggested by the CHP, (or close to them) is safer for the motorcyclist than taking up space in traffic. It's been my experience that the accidents that occur during lane sharing are less traumatic than the rear end collisions that occur while sitting in traffic.

    It seems to me that since lane sharing is only lawful in CA that those from other states are talking more theory than practice, since they have little or no experience with it. And so I tend to rely more on information from people who have actually seen and done it, as well as my own experience with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    No need for us to go round and round on this - your passion for this practice is evident, so I'll not disturb your feelings on this issue.
    You haven't "disturb[ed my] feelings on this issue." But your passing along of bad info is troublesome. I think that people rely on LE to have the best information on the law, and you obviously did not live up to that. When caught, instead of simply admitting your error, you tried to make me look like the bad guy, with a snide remark that I was "late to the party."

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    As I certainly do not wish you to lose sleep over the absence of an apology,
    Yeah, no sarcasm there. LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    I officially apologize for confusing guidelines with actual statutory requirements.
    Thanks. I think that any mistaken information that you may have conveyed, has now been corrected.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    If you wish to continue insulting my "experience and expertise," you are welcome to do so. After all, I am unaware of your credentials.
    I'm pretty sure that I didn't "insult [your] experience and expertise." I'm pretty sure that the only reference I made to it was that it was difficult to understand how someone with your education, training and experience could get an easily referenced law so wrong.

    As to my credentials – I'm a 30 year retired police Sgt. who worked for two LE agencies in the Los Angeles, CA area. I worked patrol as Reserve, an officer, an FTO (Field Training Officer, a K−9 handler, and as a Sergeant. I worked SWAT, Traffic, Detectives, Personnel, on a SIT (Shooting Investigation Team), Vice, Narcotics, I've been the Rangemaster for the department and the department K−9 trainer. I'm a court recognized expert on the use of force, several weapons and weapons systems and K−9's. I now train people to train their dogs, teach the defensive use of firearms for a prominent company, and do consultant, work on the use of force and the training, use and deployment of K−9's.

    But my credentials really have little to do with this exchange, I only provided this information so you'd have some idea of who you were talking with.

    You made the error regarding the law, and I pointed it out. Anyone who was familiar with the new law in CA could have done that. Now you've admitted it and apologized for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    A proposed lane splitting law for Montana died in committee in the legislature for the second year in a row. Having a lane splitting law in Montana makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.
    While there are not the kind of traffic jams on the freeway in Montana that one finds regularly in Los Angeles or other large, densely populated cities, there are many instances where filtering up to the front of traffic at a light, a special kind of lane sharing, could occur. These cars are stopped, it's not possible for them to change lanes (usually) and so filtering is much safer than doing it when traffic is moving, as lane sharing is usually thought of. I think such a law in any state, is a good idea. It would allow bikes, most of which accelerate faster than most cars to get out in front of them, so there would be less chance of a car lane changing into them. And it would free up traffic since there's one less vehicle in the line at the light. It's been done in much of Europe for ages.

    These forums have many first–person stories about getting rear–ended while stopped at the end of a line of cars at a traffic signal. Allowing filtering would mean that the bike wasn't hanging out at the end of such a line, and would all but eliminate such accidents.

  7. #22
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    A proposed lane splitting law for Montana died in committee in the legislature for the second year in a row. Having a lane splitting law in Montana makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.
    Loved your analogy!

    As we are in the throes of winter here in the Midwest, I have several screen doors currently going unused - could UPS them to you overnight if such a law does pass?!
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
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  8. #23
    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    A proposed lane splitting law for Montana died in committee in the legislature for the second year in a row. Having a lane splitting law in Montana makes about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.
    I think this years offering in the legislature in TX will also fade away. It would take years before folks got it like they do in CA as just trying to maintain a lane is a challenge for many in the big cities .Just do not see it happening from years of sharing space in Houston,Austin and San Antonio...and passing thru DFW on many occasions.

    Filtering to the front at signals or road construction stoppage would be nice...for one or two bikes at a time. Having had flagmen and women signal us to the front in western states is often a grateful treat as you pass the line of RV's and quickly lose them in the rearview.

    Watching the circus in Malibu every rush to the next light last spring was quite entertaining.I was on my double wide GSA that trip and just watched.On my K12S, I played well.
    What I would not enjoy, would be a group of 30 cruisers who all split to the front when you know only about five of them will clear the traffic before everyone is back to speed. In TX, that is who keeps showing up at the capitol supporting the bills...same group that despises helmet usage

    Have no LE experience ,behind the badge anyways , but have stayed in a Holiday Inn a few times
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    FUKENGRUVEN SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    I was born in Monterey, CA and have lived there and down south. The downside to lane splitting is having to live where lane splitting is needed.
    Kevin Huddy
    Tm Pterodactyl MT Outpost

  10. #25
    Registered User greenwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    I think this years offering in the legislature in TX will also fade away. It would take years before folks got it like they do in CA as just trying to maintain a lane is a challenge for many in the big cities .Just do not see it happening from years of sharing space in Houston,Austin and San Antonio...and passing thru DFW on many occasions.

    Filtering to the front at signals or road construction stoppage would be nice...for one or two bikes at a time. Having had flagmen and women signal us to the front in western states is often a grateful treat as you pass the line of RV's and quickly lose them in the rearview.

    Watching the circus in Malibu every rush to the next light last spring was quite entertaining.I was on my double wide GSA that trip and just watched.On my K12S, I played well.
    What I would not enjoy, would be a group of 30 cruisers who all split to the front when you know only about five of them will clear the traffic before everyone is back to speed. In TX, that is who keeps showing up at the capitol supporting the bills...same group that despises helmet usage

    Have no LE experience ,behind the badge anyways , but have stayed in a Holiday Inn a few times

    That last line ("have no LE experience, behind the badge anyways, ...") cracked me up. LOL

    Good post. I too have been 'prioritized' by flaggers while on I-70 in Colorado - nice to 'go to the head of the class' on a bike when you have an entire wagon train of Winnebago's. But scary to hand that baton to each and every rider I've observed. Proper skills and responsible riding are not universal concepts.

    As for "No LE experience,,,", relax. Most top-shelf authorities in motorcycle traffic safety (i.e. I spoke face-to-face with Lee Parks Friday in Chicago at the IMS) are not law enforcement, and not every person who carried a badge is a motorcycle traffic expert.
    Kevin Greenwald - MSF Lead RiderCoach # 121656 (BRC,SBRC,IS,IME,SMARTrainer)
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  11. #26
    FUKENGRUVEN SURVIVOR akbeemer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    .......Filtering to the front at signals or road construction stoppage would be nice...for one or two bikes at a time. Having had flagmen and women signal us to the front in western states is often a grateful treat as you pass the line of RV's and quickly lose them in the rearview.
    On our first ride from AK to the states Annie had less than 1000 miles of riding experience. She preferred to be last in line when going through the numerous, lengthy and muddy construction zones, because she didn't want to be pushed along by a semi in a slimy stretch of road. At most stops the flag person would signal for us to come forward and we would wave them off and pull to the side to allow the other traffic to go by. At one construction zone, however, the woman with the flag was determined that we were to come to the front. After we waved her off, she persisted in calling us to the front and eventually walked back to us and demanded that we move to the front. She told us we were violating her legal order and that the RCMP would ticket us. Her demands had zero impact on Annie and we stayed put. The flagger became apoplectic with rage, but eventually had to go back to her station because the pilot car was waiting. It probably did not help that I took a picture of her wildly gesticulating at Annie. I sometimes wonder if there is an active BOLO for us in the Yukon.
    Kevin Huddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    I think this years offering in the legislature in TX will also fade away. It would take years before folks got it like they do in CA
    Passing such a new law in states where lane sharing is not legal should involve a great deal of education of the driving public. PSA's on TV and radio, billboards (both print and electronic), printed signs, print articles, mailings included with DMV registration renewals, etc., need to be done. A search on YouTube will show that there is no shortage of self appointed enforcers of 'no lane sharing' laws, sometimes causing serious injury to motorcyclists. Heck, sometimes they crowd bikers who are passing legally in their own lanes!

    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    as just trying to maintain a lane is a challenge for many in the big cities .
    Lane sharing, like riding quickly in the twisties, is not for everyone. "Legal" does not mean 'mandatory.'

    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    Just do not see it happening from years of sharing space in Houston,Austin and San Antonio...and passing thru DFW on many occasions.
    I predict that, now that CA has passed the law, others will follow. It will probably take several years and several tries at passing the legislation, before people get used to the idea and educated to the fact that it speeds their arrival as well as that of the biker.

    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    What I would not enjoy, would be a group of 30 cruisers who all split to the front when you know only about five of them will clear the traffic before everyone is back to speed.
    In my 50+ years of riding and driving, virtually all of it done in CA, where lane sharing has been legal for my entire riding history, I've never once seen anything like this happen. People who ride in groups that large just don't lane share, even in very slow traffic. While it's permitted by law, ride leaders just don't do it. Filtering to the front in traffic stopped at a light, is usually done by solo riders or very small groups. Such fears, as this one, usually come from those who ride where lane sharing is not legal, so they have no experience with it, only theory and fears that have no basis in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    In TX, that is who keeps showing up at the capitol supporting the bills...same group that despises helmet usage
    Not all who oppose helmet laws "despise helmet usage." In my case, I think that it should be an individual choice, not one forced on riders by the government. I think that the less government intrusion on our lives, the better off we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by henzilla View Post
    Have no LE experience ,behind the badge anyways , but have stayed in a Holiday Inn a few times
    Wearing a badge does not imbue the carrier with any special knowledge of motorcycle traffic laws. But usually, it makes one pay attention to detail and to the responsibility to the public to make accurate statements about the law. Saying that "tips and guidelines" are "law" is a disservice to the public and a failure of those responsibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    Good post. I too have been 'prioritized' by flaggers while on I-70 in Colorado – nice to 'go to the head of the class' on a bike when you have an entire wagon train of Winnebago's.
    How do you reconcile this statement while seeming to be intent on denying it to others on an every–day basis? Replace "wagon train of Winnebago's" with 'slow moving vehicles stuck in traffic (or at a traffic signal)' and you have the same situation as lane sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    But scary to hand that baton to each and every rider I've observed. Proper skills and responsible riding are not universal concepts.
    As I've written, lane sharing, like riding twisty roads quickly, is not for everyone. Yet, there is no limitation based on time in the saddle or rider skill, that keeps any biker off those roads. Interesting double standard you seem to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    As for "No LE experience,,,", relax. Most top-shelf authorities in motorcycle traffic safety (i.e. I spoke face-to-face with Lee Parks Friday in Chicago at the IMS) are not law enforcement,
    Coincidentally, I too spoke to Lee "face to face" when the IMS show was in Los Angeles (actually Long Beach). He took over teaching the BRC (Basic Rider's Course) in CA when the MSF did not want input on the classes from the CHP. MSF left CA. Lee Parks took it over. The material the CHP wanted in the classes, is in them. Lee will probably be one of those consulted as to the details of the new lane sharing law here.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenwald View Post
    and not every person who carried a badge is a motorcycle traffic expert.
    It doesn’t take "a motorcycle traffic expert" to do a bit of research and find out what a law says. Having ridden for 50+ years where lane sharing is legal, coupled with 30 years of LE, seeing and taking many traffic accident reports, does give me a bit of knowledge on that topic. Your motorcycle credentials are quite impressive, but your lack of experience in riding where lane sharing is legal cuts a wide swath in it. It's a bit like being a math major but never studying geometry. Your opinion on this is just theory.

    But change is difficult and I understand why some are having problems with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by akbeemer View Post
    I sometimes wonder if there is an active BOLO for us in the Yukon.
    Remember, ask for your attorney and don't make any statement until he's there. I think in Canada you're allowed a blindfold at the firing squad.

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    not so retired henzilla's Avatar
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    I'm not going to quote quotes as I mentioned this topic has been ying-yanged to the proverbial beating of a dead horse many times.

    My riding started in Houston, have travelled thru and played in heavy traffic across the lower 48 and realized how different drivers and riders are in every state. Had many drivers open doors, move over and self police the fast lane enough to get that as well.
    Have family in SoCal, been there enough times to understand the dynamics. Have many cruiser friends who do envision their chance to do what I stated in my filtering scenario...and witnessed a very large group doing just that on the PCH passing thru Malibu thru at least four signals so I'll believe some think it's cool to do that.

    The self driving car dynamic is fairly valid at this point and not everything that rolls in CA drives legislation elsewhere...Recreational pot just doesn't seem to be headed our way anytime soon from the rants of our current folks in charge

    Having been keeping up with most of the TX bill filings and chit chat for many years, I can assure you I understand the politics of motorcycle and bicycle related reasons and arguments. Freedom of choice sometimes needs a little help because the "It won't happen to me " are exactly who it happens to. For some reason, seat belts come to mind here

    I wore helmets, not worn helmets, worn helmets because of the back and forth of the laws years ago...now I am older and wiser and will ride accordingly. I wore a jean vest and hung with a different crowd in my twenties...I have heard it all.

    And on skill levels and experience, some folks do what peer pressure drives them to do and they should learn how their bikes and their brain reacts to traffic, twisty roads, and high speed traveling amongst bigger vehicles before jumping in full bore. Watching inexperienced riders denying countersteering in a curve and straddling the double yellow as they make a five point turn attempt is just friggin scary ...but it doesn't stop them as you mentioned.

    I was trying to lighten the tone with my Holiday Inn quip...as these threads go personal way too often and needing to put my moderator hat on and take me away from a chance to ride makes me sad to say the least.
    It's OK we disagree and share opinions...trying to herd or correct the rest of us is futile in spite of perceived good intentions

    Headed out for a long Airhead ride today...be cool
    Steve Henson
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    It's not the breaths you take, but the moments that take your breath away-D.Dillon/G. Strait

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