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Thread: Harley-Davidson has an expensive emissions problem of its own

  1. #1
    Back in the saddle again mikegalbicka's Avatar
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    Harley-Davidson has an expensive emissions problem of its own

    From Cnet/RoadShow
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/h...tag=CAD590a51e

    "Loud pipes may save lives, but the motorcycles that run them might be causing damage in other ways, and I'm not talking about eardrums. Harley-Davidson is currently facing a $12 million fine after selling aftermarket tuning devices that turn its motorcycles into tiny little Volkswagen diesels (as far as the environment is concerned).

    H-D ended up in this mess because it was selling "super tuners," which allow owners to tweak various engine parameters, just like ECU tunes for cars. Trouble is, these super tuners can allow motorcycles to surpass EPA pollution limits, and when you run afoul of the federal government, especially in this post-Dieselgate industry, it's basically asking for trouble."

    Is this anything the Mothership needs to worry about?

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    Registered User AKsuited's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    Is this anything the Mothership needs to worry about?
    No. The tuners and mix adjusters for BMW bikes are all aftermarket, with BMW not selling any of them.

    Harry

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    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikegalbicka View Post
    From Cnet/RoadShow
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/h...tag=CAD590a51e

    "Loud pipes may save lives, but the motorcycles that run them might be causing damage in other ways, and I'm not talking about eardrums. Harley-Davidson is currently facing a $12 million fine after selling aftermarket tuning devices that turn its motorcycles into tiny little Volkswagen diesels (as far as the environment is concerned).

    H-D ended up in this mess because it was selling "super tuners," which allow owners to tweak various engine parameters, just like ECU tunes for cars. Trouble is, these super tuners can allow motorcycles to surpass EPA pollution limits, and when you run afoul of the federal government, especially in this post-Dieselgate industry, it's basically asking for trouble."

    Is this anything the Mothership needs to worry about?
    1) "Super" tuners and straight pipes = Rich mixtures and minimal back pressure

    Is there anything else we could do to insure burnt valves
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    Still Wondering mika's Avatar
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    Harley-Davidson, EPA reach settlement
    MILWAUKEE, Aug. 18, 2016 /PRNewswire/ -- Harley-Davidson, Inc. (NYSE:HOG) has reached a settlement with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding the sale of one aftermarket tuning product used to calibrate motorcycles intended for off-road and closed-course competition. As part of the settlement agreement, the company will no longer sell its competition-only tuner in the U.S. The c
    Harley-Davidson News Release /

  5. #5
    Registered User AntonLargiader's Avatar
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    Pocket change.

    The only meaningful thing here is that they can't sell their polluting accessories any more. That's probably all that bothers them.
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    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntonLargiader View Post
    Pocket change.

    The only meaningful thing here is that they can't sell their polluting accessories any more. That's probably all that bothers them.
    The dealers have plenty of aftermarket straight pipes to sell and there's that burn-out pit in the rear of the parking lot to boost tire sales. Spend $20K plus, then trash the bike to show off. What aspect of stupid isn't in this package?
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    A bozo on the bus deilenberger's Avatar
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    In reading a bit more about this - HD is claiming that they're innocent as far as selling the crappola - that everyone really bought it for racing use. What they can't talk away is when the dealerships installed the stuff, on bikes that obviously weren't being used for racing. As Anton said - what they're probably most unhappy about is a revenue stream drying up that way..
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    Registered User SeabeckS's Avatar
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    One night exiting a restaurant, noticed a couple of deputies chatting in the parking lot just after finishing their mid shift meal. As I neared them, a couple of straight piped Hogs peeled out of the parking lot about 200 yards away and cranked it on. Pretty obvious the deputies were PO'd, but realized by the time they got in their patrol cars there would be little chance of catching the idjits. As I walked by, I remarked, "all that noise from 22 horsepower!" High fives ensued.
    Bill Johnston

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    High fives Good one

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    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeabeckS View Post
    One night exiting a restaurant, noticed a couple of deputies chatting in the parking lot just after finishing their mid shift meal. As I neared them, a couple of straight piped Hogs peeled out of the parking lot about 200 yards away and cranked it on. Pretty obvious the deputies were PO'd, but realized by the time they got in their patrol cars there would be little chance of catching the idjits. As I walked by, I remarked, "all that noise from 22 horsepower!" High fives ensued.
    They really couldn't charge them any ways. Onsite sound pressure level (SPL) measurements are problematic and hard to support in court. Then you have the AMA lending support to these offenders because they're now being targeted/harassed. Just like the defense of future organ donors and their right to ride without a helmet.

    OK, my rant is done.......
    Cave contents: 16 R12RS, 13 Toyota Tacoma, 03 Simplicity Legacy, 97 Stihl FS75, Dewalt DW625 & SawStop PCS175
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    Registered User Hodadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    They really couldn't charge them any ways.
    OK, my rant is done.......
    Not so. They can be charged with exhibition of speed, which in Commiefornia is a bookable misdemeanor.
    They can be cited for excessive noise.
    They can be cited for illegal modifications to their EPA approved exhaust systems. etc etc.
    It's a big book with lots of pages.
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    (Who watches the watchers)

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    JohnWC
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    Why on earth would the police charge them for excess noise? Half of the police force is riding around on the same type of excessively loud bikes, dressed up as Outlaws, on their days off. They love those guys.

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    Registered User SeabeckS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    They really couldn't charge them any ways. Onsite sound pressure level (SPL) measurements are problematic and hard to support in court. Then you have the AMA lending support to these offenders because they're now being targeted/harassed. Just like the defense of future organ donors and their right to ride without a helmet.

    OK, my rant is done.......
    In Washington you can be cited for "excessive show of speed", just sayin'....

    And on another comment, I've had the pleasure of riding with many off duty officers over the years. All sorts of bikes, including Harley's, exactly zero with straight pipes. Common thread with most of these gents is they ride for pleasure...not to attract attention...lol

    Cheers!
    Bill Johnston

  14. #14
    Registered User 36654's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hodadd View Post
    Not so. They can be charged with exhibition of speed, which in Commiefornia is a bookable misdemeanor.
    They can be cited for excessive noise.
    They can be cited for illegal modifications to their EPA approved exhaust systems. etc etc.
    It's a big book with lots of pages.
    Other than speeding/reckless driving, have you ever seen some one arrested for these infractions?

    What is the CA specification for vehicle noise and what are allowable means to measure? I doubt that you can find a reputable acoustician that will vouch for roadside SPL measurements. That's why the law died in PA in the 1970's.

    Does the CA motor vehicle code specify an EPA muffler? What noise rating is stamped on any of your vehicles? I doubt that you can find a noise rating on any of the mufflers at your local NAPA store. The EPA/Forest Service standard on mufflers is a federal standard/guideline. I know in my state, that means nothing. Same thing went for helmets when we had a helmet law. So, any helmet met the standard, because the state standard was never created.
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    Registered User Hodadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36654 View Post
    Other than speeding/reckless driving, have you ever seen some one arrested for these infractions?

    What is the CA specification for vehicle noise and what are allowable means to measure? I doubt that you can find a reputable acoustician that will vouch for roadside SPL measurements. That's why the law died in PA in the 1970's.

    Does the CA motor vehicle code specify an EPA muffler? What noise rating is stamped on any of your vehicles? I doubt that you can find a noise rating on any of the mufflers at your local NAPA store. The EPA/Forest Service standard on mufflers is a federal standard/guideline. I know in my state, that means nothing. Same thing went for helmets when we had a helmet law. So, any helmet met the standard, because the state standard was never created.
    Q1: Yes. Exhibition of speed also includes wheelies on public roadways too. Not only is this bookable, it can also lead to the towing and impounding of your bike.

    In Commiefornia, it is illegal to modify a muffler to make it louder. There is no definitive test, it is subjective. So, yes, all of those loud pipes save lives are illegal under California law. And, to answer the unasked question, usually only the AdamHenry's are stopped and/or cited. It's called probable cause to stop. Once stopped, the officer can see what flows from there.

    Does the muffler have to be EPA approved? Yes, it does. It also has to be DOT approved co-jointly. If it meets both of those standards, then it is presumed to meet sound requirements, since noise levels are part of the certification process.

    Governor Schwarginhover signed a law just before leaving office that makes it illegal to put any exhaust system other than OEM on any vehicle made after 2012 (IIRC). Don't even get me started on that guy.......

    Many LEOs, depending on the jurisdiction, are issued decibel-meters (this is also for loud parties in jurisdictions that noise ordinances). Almost all of the rangers, state or federal in this state are issued said devices. The OHV parks are death on loud bikes and in some parks you have to start the bikes up and pass a sound test before they'll allow you to enter. I've read about this spreading to other states where the loud pipe crowd is omnipresent, but I don't have first hand knowledge of those states, just here.

    In this state, they rarely stop and cite the driver/rider, where they grab you is with the shop that does the installations. We have an agency called "The Bureau of Automotive Repair". They do many different things, but one of the things they do, is issue HUGE fines on garages that skirt smog laws, which include muffler modifications. (This part of the discussion can lead down a rabbit hole that is not for this forum.)

    You also raised the issue of helmet laws. In this state, it's easy, if it's DOT approved, you're good to go, if not, no go. Hence, the market opportunities in the sale of DOT stickers.

    Many, many cops are riders or x-riders, and most are careful to abide by the laws. Many do not, but most do, because not only can you get cited, but a citation can lead to negative consequences on the job, like getting fired. Cops are people too and they come in all flavors as well.

    Just remember, California is the land of fruits and nuts. The biggest problem is that this mindset is spreading like a cancer across the country.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal
    (Who watches the watchers)

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