The ONLY way to See the Alps...

pffog · Dec 19, 2016

I did ride an RT for a couple days, many moons ago. This is what the boxer should sound like when hustling along in the twisty stuff. Sorry for the quality, but state of the art video was much different back than.

Be advised, I was playing catch up, and the bikes I catch at the end were Rob, and another well known rider from California, that has a reputation for chasing down and embarrassing sport bikes in the canyons on his GS, that he fits a 17" front on to run sticky rubber.

Mr Elliott can probably vouch for Rob's swiftness when riding with like minded and skillful riders.

RBEmerson · Dec 19, 2016

pffog said:
And with Rob, this can be a 2 week lesson, not a 1/2 day. He obviously can't always go 1 on 1 as there are other clients, but if you are willing and eager to learn, he will make the time to help you. As I said before, he has taken a passenger on his bike for a day or two so a rider could get comfortable solo first, I saw him skip a lunch to take a struggling rider out to practice, even put him on the back of his bike to show him how to approach and navigate tight hairpins.

To clear up any ambiguity, I didn't ask for a 1on1 clinic, it was volunteered, and it met my needs quite well.

As far as "in your face" Rob is straight forward, but I look at it as more truthful. He takes it personally if you don't have a great time, some things are out of his control, but making sure a rider is competent enough and know what they are getting into (The best riding in the world, IMHO) is one thing he can control. One rider can ruin the experience for every other rider, and he works hard to make sure people have the right mindset and attitude. A crash can ruin the euphoria of such a trip, even if it was not you. That is why you "Apply" to tour, not just sign up. There is no, sure send me your $$, good luck, have fun as he is part of every tour.

He is also probably going to have a conversation with you before accepting your application for the reason above as well as others. We have all meet a "Donny Downer" that is not happy about anything, and wants everyone around them to be just as miserable, and although you can do your own thing during the day, the nightly dinner is a time that it is hard to avoid such people, and one bad apple can effect the tone of the tour. Legend has it he sent a "Donny downer" home several years ago and refunded his $$, after he had several conversations about the guys attitude, to no success. His reasoning, to the shocked client, was that he was happy to refund HIS $$, because if he didn't, he would feel obliged to refund all the other clients on tour, because their trip was ruined by him. You can do that when you are the owner, not some hired guide. Also some people just don't like twisty roads, but want to "see Europe", not a wise choice to do a MC tour. I have a friend who meet a group of riders on the Blue Ridge Pky. last year that were complaining that that road sucked, and was too much work. Can you imagine them in the Alps? Their heads would explode! Not a good client for a tour.

As I said before, I have meet 10 or more people on Beach tours, that did previous tours with others including Edelweiss, and every one of them said there is no going back to the others, that the Beach tour was superior in many ways.

You've touched some points that shouldn't be overlooked.

Whether the discussion of turns and bikes verges on confrontational or not is for focus groups to decide. I'm relating my reaction; in trying to decide who to do the July trip with, BMCA, as I said earlier, lost me on that style. There it is. "You only get one chance to make a good impression." I voted with my wallet. And, yes, I regret my decision to go with Edelweiss. There that is, too.

I didn't see any operator who asked for a riding CV (curriculum vitae or resume). We've done some sailing charters, and even third tier operators ask for a sailing CV. And make it clear that it's a very good idea for a newbie to take a captain/instructor along for a day or two. I continue to wonder why there isn't at least some degree of, for want of a better term, screening. If a tour operator takes on someone who doesn't have the needed skills, at the least the rider will probably be negative about the experience. At the worst, heirs and assigns may well be asking hard questions about how Uncle Henry came to be returned in a box. In short, screening is a way for the operator to limit exposure to adverse results.

From my Edelweiss experience and particularly from a MSF school operator with three Edelweiss trips: I think I mentioned the couple who hadn't been on two wheels in five years; she demanded he stop dropping her and get a Can-Am. And I may have mentioned the H-D couple who got soaked on day 1 of their tour and bailed. I don't know exactly what the Edelweiss pre-tour, one day introduction to the Alps course contained, but I know the instructor said he had doubts about a couple of the participants. All of this argues strongly for that CV check. And still has me wondering why Edelweiss didn't intervene in some manner.

One person's "Donny & Donna Downer" may well be someone else's idea of a good time. I had two encounters that ultimately brought me to effectively dropping out of the tour. AFAIK the people involved seemed otherwise reasonable people. They just couldn't handle getting lost and came unglued, with some ugly things being said and done. How does anyone filter for that?

As for the "we really think it's time you left" episode, that's a really, really tough call. I get the idea of dragging around the south end of a mule going north being a problem for everyone else. OTOH, even with the refunded BMCA fees, there's still the matter of the plane tickets, etc. bought in anticipation of the trip. That's very much being between a rock and a hard place.

P.S. You mentioned waiting a reply, I would send off another email, or better yet call them. They are usually pretty prompt in replying, possible your email got lost in the shuffle, or ended up in the dreaded spam folder, or just never made it through the tangle of electrons flowing through the internet.

Meh... at this point I'm trying to imitate a one-armed wallpaper hanger. I'll check on the email as time permits.

nelliott · Dec 19, 2016

RBEmerson said:
As for the "we really think it's time you left" episode, that's a really, really tough call. I get the idea of dragging around the south end of a mule going north being a problem for everyone else. OTOH, even with the refunded BMCA fees, there's still the matter of the plane tickets, etc. bought in anticipation of the trip. That's very much being between a rock and a hard place.

I purchased, before my first tour both Medical Insurance (which I always purchase for out of the country) and for the first time ever, Trip Cancellation Insurance (never bought that before) because the total up-front outlay was big and I didn't want to take the financial loss risk on the cost of the tour and plane tickets etc.

Day two; about 40 minutes from the hotel that evening, on that first tour, I was riding in the rain and there was a (after the fact observation) slick of cow **** mixed with rain in a hairpin in the high Alps. I was on a F700GS and going about 12 km/h. Well cow sh*t and water is like diesel oil, zero traction, the bike, and I, went down. The bike landed on my leg, I wasn't going fast enough to clear it. Bottom line, tour came to an end, broken ankle bone. Surgery in Europe, 10 days in the hospital. Covered by medical insurance. Now the tricky part. Once you are released from the hospital, you are deemed medically fit, from an insurance perspective. The only thing that paid my return flight home and taxis ($1,000 trip from Austria to Munich Airport) was the Trip Cancellation Insurance.

Trip cancelation Insurance was a relatively small $ expense against a financially huge loss. The insurance also covered 12 of the 14 days prorated cost of the tour cost. (I officially enjoyed two days of the tour).
The last minute, one way business class flight (economy class would have killed me) was $8,000 CDN.

Now I never leave home without BOTH insurances.

Rob sending you home would likely qualify for the trip cancellation insurance to kick-in, however, check with the insurance company on those nuances before you purchase.

nelliott · Dec 19, 2016

pffog said:
Mr Elliott can probably vouch for Rob's swiftness when riding with like minded and skillful riders.

Yes Rob raced, so he can ride extremely spirited AND stay in his lane the entire time, no lane crossing.

That video looks like Stelvio, nes pas?

pffog · Dec 20, 2016

nelliott said:
Yes Rob raced, so he can ride extremely spirited AND stay in his lane the entire time, no lane crossing.

That video looks like Stelvio, nes pas?

Wasn't Stelvio, it was somewhere between Trento and Arabba, if memory serves me.

pffog · Dec 20, 2016

RBEmerson said:
To clear up any ambiguity, I didn't ask for a 1on1 clinic, it was volunteered, and it met my needs quite well.

You've touched some points that shouldn't be overlooked.

Whether the discussion of turns and bikes verges on confrontational or not is for focus groups to decide. I'm relating my reaction; in trying to decide who to do the July trip with, BMCA, as I said earlier, lost me on that style. There it is. "You only get one chance to make a good impression." I voted with my wallet. And, yes, I regret my decision to go with Edelweiss. There that is, too.

I didn't see any operator who asked for a riding CV (curriculum vitae or resume). We've done some sailing charters, and even third tier operators ask for a sailing CV. And make it clear that it's a very good idea for a newbie to take a captain/instructor along for a day or two. I continue to wonder why there isn't at least some degree of, for want of a better term, screening. If a tour operator takes on someone who doesn't have the needed skills, at the least the rider will probably be negative about the experience. At the worst, heirs and assigns may well be asking hard questions about how Uncle Henry came to be returned in a box. In short, screening is a way for the operator to limit exposure to adverse results.

From my Edelweiss experience and particularly from a MSF school operator with three Edelweiss trips: I think I mentioned the couple who hadn't been on two wheels in five years; she demanded he stop dropping her and get a Can-Am. And I may have mentioned the H-D couple who got soaked on day 1 of their tour and bailed. I don't know exactly what the Edelweiss pre-tour, one day introduction to the Alps course contained, but I know the instructor said he had doubts about a couple of the participants. All of this argues strongly for that CV check. And still has me wondering why Edelweiss didn't intervene in some manner.

One person's "Donny & Donna Downer" may well be someone else's idea of a good time. I had two encounters that ultimately brought me to effectively dropping out of the tour. AFAIK the people involved seemed otherwise reasonable people. They just couldn't handle getting lost and came unglued, with some ugly things being said and done. How does anyone filter for that?

As for the "we really think it's time you left" episode, that's a really, really tough call. I get the idea of dragging around the south end of a mule going north being a problem for everyone else. OTOH, even with the refunded BMCA fees, there's still the matter of the plane tickets, etc. bought in anticipation of the trip. That's very much being between a rock and a hard place.

Meh... at this point I'm trying to imitate a one-armed wallpaper hanger. I'll check on the email as time permits.

I think you are missing my point, which is Beach's try their best to make sure everyone on a tour gets what they need to have a great trip, be it help riding, navigating, communicating bike recommendations etc, and that need varies between almost every tour member. And as you sit back and observe the process unfold, it really is amazing at times that they make it work. Kind of like a great Chef, having to make a great personalized meal for 10 different people and not knowing the ingredients you would have to work with, until after the separate orders were taken.

Rob being the owner and on every tour, has the ability, expertise and power to make quick decisions and address issues on the spot. A hired guide does not. Your relate to sailing is a good analogy, and I will assume you have some experience and skill in that field. The advice Rob tries to impart is from 43 years of Beach's experience, and might be different from your ideas, but as you alluded he would be would be remiss to not share that advice with a potential client, and end up with an Uncle Henry situation. If you are a serious and skilled sailor, and a casual or in experienced sailor came along and insisted on doing something that was not wise, or the best choice, I am sure your advice might come off as smug to that person, when in reality you were actually trying to help and offer advice.

RBEmerson · Dec 20, 2016

Because I dive and also spend a lot of time going from the Chesapeake to the Bahamas and back, we back up our usual medical insurance with DAN (Divers Alert Network) insurance which can cover Europe, too. Being a diver is not a requirement. It's well worth investigating.

My situation is a little different in that even if a tour was blown out for some reason, I'd still be here, spending time with my in-laws. In that sense, the plane tickets are not an issue.

RBEmerson · Dec 20, 2016

Um, regarding instruction, I've taught at the college level and I've worked as a PSIA accredited ski instructor. I think I've developed a sense of what tone works with a variety of students.

RBEmerson · Dec 22, 2016

I've exchanged a couple of notes with Rob Beach (all comes to he who waits...). At this point I need to talk over the overall project (return to the Alps, without Edelweiss) with my wife. We need to sort out what she'll be doing for the two weeks of the tour (she refuses to ride... sigh...). And do I DIY or not. Which isn't knocking Beach's. It's not very likely I'll be reading the Alps again for a while (money, time needed for other things... the usual things). Which path will get me the most satisfaction for the buck.

As a side note, Rob is willing to send me out on a K1600 but... the early July tour happens during BMW Bike Days, when Rob has no access K1600's (they come direct from BMW, and BMW needs all of their demos for BMW Days). OTOH, late July gets into prime European vacation time. Which adds traffic everywhere (BTDT tore up the t-shirt). Early June is plausible but collides with prime growing season (not a farmer, just someone with too much ground and too much in the way of various plantings). Ah me... decisions, decisions...

nelliott · Dec 22, 2016

RBEmerson said:
I've exchanged a couple of notes with Rob Beach (all comes to he who waits...). At this point I need to talk over the overall project (return to the Alps, without Edelweiss) with my wife. We need to sort out what she'll be doing for the two weeks of the tour (she refuses to ride... sigh...). And do I DIY or not. Which isn't knocking Beach's. It's not very likely I'll be reading the Alps again for a while (money, time needed for other things... the usual things). Which path will get me the most satisfaction for the buck.

As a side note, Rob is willing to send me out on a K1600 but... the early July tour happens during BMW Bike Days, when Rob has no access K1600's (they come direct from BMW, and BMW needs all of their demos for BMW Days). OTOH, late July gets into prime European vacation time. Which adds traffic everywhere (BTDT tore up the t-shirt). Early June is plausible but collides with prime growing season (not a farmer, just someone with too much ground and too much in the way of various plantings). Ah me... decisions, decisions...

I did a late August early Sept tour, and because the roads we took were so, out of the way, they were not really busy at all. Perhaps an early June tour is the best for less people, but you may hit a pass or two that might not be open due to snow.
As soon as July hits, you are in tourist and European holiday season. so not sure you will be able to avoid some roads being busy.
Stelvio was the worst for me in terms of busy, the others were not very busy to downright having the road to one's self. Driving through cities, a different story...

I suggest your wife might enjoy two weeks in Italy, like a nice stay at a farmhouse, with some wheels and she may be all set (I LOVE Tuscany) This the website my wife and I use to find great places to stay in Italy

http://www.invitationtotuscany.com/?utm_source=Invitation%20to%20Tuscany%20List&utm_campaign=34f3ab6367-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_21&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_03ecf853e8-34f3ab6367-326334077

or perhaps a walking tour of Cornwall...http://www.westcornwallwalks.co.uk/walkingroutes.html

or....Paris, or Berlin, or London, or Edinburgh, Dublin, or Munich, or Luxembourg or or or...

RBEmerson · Dec 23, 2016

Late August - early September makes sense re: vacation traffic. Most kids have returned to school, for example. Weather will probably cooperate although early Sept. but can be uncooperative. Anyway, ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice.

Chris has made it clear she wants to go "someplace new" this summer. With at least her sister (and maybe brother) along, it won't be "perfidious Albion". Italy, and particularly Tuscany, could be an possibility. However, in the past, her family's schedule dictated early July. Ah well, lots of time between now and then...

RBEmerson · Dec 29, 2016

I've been thrashing with what to do about the trip. Looking at a similar thread on ADVRider, it turns out that shipping my bike, via Air Canada, will come in "under $2K". That's subject to the inevitable surprises and the state of the US and Canadian dollars ($1USD ~= $0.75CDN). Two major add-ons are 1) getting to and from Toronto to pack/unpack the bike, and 2) the cost of round trip YYZ-FRA relative to PHL-FRA with Lufthansa (or maybe AA, if they resume their direct flights). Figure $300 for the road trip (including gas, food, and a night Motel 6 each way). The air ticket difference remains a mystery for now. At the FRA end, life gets much easier. All that's left is to gas up (shipping requires a near-empty gas tank) and ride about an hour to my in-laws (no lodging cost, minimal gas costs).

From there, picking a conservative number, $125/day should cover staying at a pension (think sort of a B&B w/ breakfast thrown in), lunch and dinner, and gas. That comes out to $1750 for 14 days. Budget $2K and the total bill (less tickets) comes to around $4500 for a bike (mine) and accommodations, meals, and gas. By comparison, Beach's comes in "under $9K" for bike accommodations, breakfast, and dinner. Gas and lunch are not included. Being insanely conservative, that's a $4K delta. Or almost the trip again. The 14 days includes travel from the Frankfurt area to "somewhere near big mountains" (~6hrs on the autobahn system, longer if detouring through the Schwartzwald (Black Forest) or wandering around in Bavaria. So many places, so little time...

As to routing, the amount of information about touring the Alps, anywhere from "wide and pretty" to "scared the author witless and took two tries before a successful ride". The same applies to general locations, from the Pyrenees to the Dolomites and eastward. There are a number of guide books. The touring press over here is a serious drain on my wallet (4-5 titles, most monthly), and, of course, articles run from "have a nice picnic" to "bring your big boy pants, you're going to need 'em".

But wait, that's not all. My wife and I, if she's still talking to me, would probably spend about a week split on either side of the 14 days. Which means the bike would be east of the Atlantic for about three weeks. Woohoo.

So... go ahead, show me where I've missed the obvious.

patm · Dec 29, 2016

Don't forget insurance while the bike is in transit and on the road there. Also, there might be import fees or taxes.

RBEmerson · Dec 30, 2016

patm said:
Don't forget insurance while the bike is in transit and on the road there. Also, there might be import fees or taxes.

Air Canada manages the bike fees. It appears that EU rules don't require a ton of money unless the bike doesn't leave after X days. There's also a Dangerous Materials issue (battery, etc.) they handle.

I'll do an insurance review, but ,to date, our existing policies are usable here.

RBEmerson · Dec 30, 2016

I think the two big holes in my plan are insurance and breakdowns.

We self-insure when we rent a car here. Our insurer "blessed" this. I'll talk to our rep about covering the bike and a rental car (driven by my wife).

Breakdowns is the one area that's pretty much a gamble. I'll have the bike combed over in late May-early June. That includes brakes and tires, all "drain it and fill it" items, and a general checkout. That schedule gives time to scrub in any new brake pads or tires. And time to make sure nobody forgot a drain plug, etc. Beyond that... :dunno

I'll look at what AAA or ADAC (German AAA) offer.

Input?

pglaves · Dec 30, 2016

RBEmerson said:
I think the two big holes in my plan are insurance and breakdowns.

We self-insure when we rent a car here. Our insurer "blessed" this. I'll talk to our rep about covering the bike and a rental car (driven by my wife).

Breakdowns is the one area that's pretty much a gamble. I'll have the bike combed over in late May-early June. That includes brakes and tires, all "drain it and fill it" items, and a general checkout. That schedule gives time to scrub in any new brake pads or tires. And time to make sure nobody forgot a drain plug, etc. Beyond that... I'll look at what AAA or ADAC (German AAA) offer.

Input?

You pays your money and takes your chances. The odds-per-mile of a breakdown on foriegn soil are probably about the same as they are near home - taking into consideration the riding environment. It is just the consequences of the breakdown that can differ widely.

RBEmerson · Dec 30, 2016

Paul, you nailed the core of my concern. This particular bike ate its ABS modulator, sniveled incorrectly on being low on brake fluid in the rear brake circuit, and, most recently, sniveled incorrectly about the rear ABS sensor. I'd like to think I've gotten all of the incipient failures. I'd like to think the Easter Bunny makes house calls, too.

There is some hope for getting the equivalent of AAA protection but, in the main, ya pays yer money, etc. So, Paul, how much time have you both spent in the Alps? Care to tag along on a trip?

pglaves · Dec 30, 2016

RBEmerson said:
Paul, you nailed the core of my concern. This particular bike ate its ABS modulator, sniveled incorrectly on being low on brake fluid in the rear brake circuit, and, most recently, sniveled incorrectly about the rear ABS sensor. I'd like to think I've gotten all of the incipient failures. I'd like to think the Easter Bunny makes house calls, too.

There is some hope for getting the equivalent of AAA protection but, in the main, ya pays yer money, etc. So, Paul, how much time have you both spent in the Alps? Care to tag along on a trip?

My overseas experience is limited to a couple of days in Spain courtesy of BMW for the unveiling of the then new K1200R; two months in southern Africa with Ayers Adventures on three back-to-back tours, and a couple of weeks in New Zealand with Fred Rau, Ted Simon and Te Waipounamu Motorcycle Tours. I will add that nothing broke in Spain, our tour leader's 05 R1200GS died of an antenna ring failure so we towed it around for a couple of weeks while he rode an F650, and in New Zealand one bike had an electrical gremlin which was replaced by the tour company with a quick overnight delivery of a new bike.

RBEmerson · Dec 31, 2016

Encouraging.

Aside from the brake issues (new modulator - seal failure instead of the more common motor failure), the bike's well behaved. My guess is the rear brake issues are somewhat related (tinkering with one thing jeopardized the other).

Antenna ring failed? Part of a remote key system?

V. cool re: NZ trips!

nelliott · Dec 31, 2016

PGlaves said:
My overseas experience is limited to a couple of days in Spain courtesy of BMW for the unveiling of the then new K1200R; two months in southern Africa with Ayers Adventures on three back-to-back tours, and a couple of weeks in New Zealand with Fred Rau, Ted Simon and Te Waipounamu Motorcycle Tours. I will add that nothing broke in Spain, our tour leader's 05 R1200GS died of an antenna ring failure so we towed it around for a couple of weeks while he rode an F650, and in New Zealand one bike had an electrical gremlin which replaced by the tour company with a quick overnight delivery of a new bike.

Hi Paul,

So no self guided ship your own bikes tours. Why is that? (Genuine question given Voni and your background). I know why I take organized tours, curious as to your logic at that time, (or perhaps still?)

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