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Thread: The ONLY way to See the Alps...

  1. #31
    Cowboyatheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    Dang. More and more, I'm kicking myself for not digging further into Beach instead of going with Edelweiss. The initial investigation gave me the impression Beach's was more "we know what's best for you" than appears to be the case. Sigh... done is done.

    Getting to Munich is no biggie. If I do the trip, I'd be heading there from near Frankfurt (about 5-6 hr drive). Anyway, lots can happen before I can pull the trigger...

    Thanks for all of the info!
    You are welcome. If I can help with any other questions let me know. I paid the extra to have a room by myself, way worth it!
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  2. #32
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post

    Edelweiss... at least for me, the group never really gelled. From what I've heard, and what I read in the pre-tour info, there were supposed to be some get acquainted events (including the group picnic that's supposed to be a hallmark of the Edelweiss experience). None of that happened. Everyone was left to sort themselves as best they could. .............................
    This is why I would never go with Edelweiss, Good company just not my cup of tea. What Neil said below is how it has worked on every Beach tour I have been on. New riders generally ride with Rob for a while to get comfortable, then feel confident enough to go off on their own, with all the info and the 2-6 routes every day, or the option to take your own route. The other advantage of Beach's, is there is generally over half of the riders on their 2nd, 6th or 20th tour, and many times others will develop a friendship that lasts the entire tour or beyond. I have a friend from Florida, who is 18 years my senior, that I meet at least once a year in the Smoky's to ride, meet him on tour in '07. He was looking for a little more spirited pace, and Rob Beach suggested he talk to me, we had a great time, even bagged 9 passes out of Arraba, after a heavy fog lifted at 2:30 PM, and were back by dark. He still talks about it to this day, and despite pushing 80 years old, still will out ride most riders in the twisties.

    Quote Originally Posted by nelliott View Post

    I did NOT ride with the group. Well, I did a couple of days, for a couple of hours, but I don't like the pace, nor working to keep with the group, nor the stops they took. Rob and Gretchen are totally good with riders heading off on their own, Beach's provides a GPS with various routes for each day, or you can create your own. However, Rob has great roads, all mapped out, so in my opinion, it was well worth listening to his talk the night before and choose a route based on his recommendation.

    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    I really, really wanted a K1600GT, which is available on some tours. But Edelweiss said "no way!"; I got a '15 R1200RT instead. And two late sign-ups got H-D baggers. Say what???
    As far as bike choice, Rob will get you an RT if you really want one, but 43 years of experience is worth listening to as well. Sounds like you did many of the big passes on your tour, Rob tends to avoid the main roads, for the roads less traveled. I have been on Roads on Beach tours that Global Rider refers to, the small out of the way, NO traffic, local roads that 90% of NA riders will never see. And on these passes, an RT is big. There is very little 60mph stuff on his routes. I ride hard and fast and average about 55kpm most days, It is wonderful and what keeps me going back.

    Another aspect is the likely hood that you will have a tip over is much higher than here, in the last 15 years I have had a parking lot tip over maybe 6-8 times, and all but one was in the Alps. It is not that it is dangerous, but you will be stopping to take pictures, eat, for cappuccino etc. numerous times a day, and many of the places you may stop are not nice level places (you are in the mountains after all) so the chances of a misplaced foot are far greater. With an RT and its painted and color matched everything, and the fact that they are BMW fleet bikes every scratch will cost you big $ for damages and a simple slip of the foot can be costly. That is one of the reasons Rob does not have any in his personal fleet. The same tip over with one of Robs bikes will be much cheaper, he will not charge you for a new saddlebag lid for a new scratch, as you likely are just adding to some that may already be there. They want you to go home with just a fond memory of your adventure, not a bill for damages.


    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    But I'm already planning a return to the Alps. This time I'll make my own arrangements.
    After a couple of tour with Beach, I also did my own thing a few times, one was $$ concerns, as we took our 3 boys with us, and my pocketbook was not up to paying for 5 bikes and 6 people with all the benefits the tour brings. And once because the wife had some business in Prague, which we stretched into a 16 day trip. But the wife and I keep going back with Beach's. There is value in the extra cost, so if you have the means give them a shot next time. I have meet at least a dozen people that were on their fist Beach tour after touring with Edelweiss and others, and every single one said they would never go back to anyone else for a MC tour. The fact that 60%-75% of the riders are repeat customers says a lot.

    Even looking at this thread, You were lukewarm about your experience, Nelliott and I had an entirely different take away, and can't wait for more.

    Happy travels!
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  3. #33
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nelliott View Post
    You are welcome. If I can help with any other questions let me know. I paid the extra to have a room by myself, way worth it!
    I had a single room, too. Bunking with a stranger isn't my first choice, Army days, summer camp, and ski club mountain house not withstanding. OTOH, given the hotel was spendy enough without the "hermit charge", my inclination now is to pull up my big boy pants, sing a round of the summer camp song "Turn out the light! Turn out the light, kiss your room mate good night, and turn out the light!", and live with it. And I think Beach's says that if you say you'll accept a roomie and one doesn't show up, no hermit fee. Wonder who I'd have to kill to get that prize. Bwa-hahahahaha!
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  4. #34
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pffog View Post
    This is why I would never go with Edelweiss, Good company just not my cup of tea. What Neil said below is how it has worked on every Beach tour I have been on. New riders generally ride with Rob for a while to get comfortable, then feel confident enough to go off on their own, with all the info and the 2-6 routes every day, or the option to take your own route. The other advantage of Beach's, is there is generally over half of the riders on their 2nd, 6th or 20th tour, and many times others will develop a friendship that lasts the entire tour or beyond. I have a friend from Florida, who is 18 years my senior, that I meet at least once a year in the Smoky's to ride, meet him on tour in '07. He was looking for a little more spirited pace, and Rob Beach suggested he talk to me, we had a great time, even bagged 9 passes out of Arraba, after a heavy fog lifted at 2:30 PM, and were back by dark. He still talks about it to this day, and despite pushing 80 years old, still will out ride most riders in the twisties.
    IMNSHO Edelweiss has over-expanded. Beach mentions that they resist over-expansion to avoid diluting their product. Makes sense to me. Now.

    I talked with someone who'd done the same Central Alps Tour a year or two before. Like you, he's still in touch with a couple of folks from the trip. The group dynamics is, of course, a gamble; my trip definitely came up snake-eyes.

    In retrospect, I wish I'd followed up on one of the DIY routes I pieced together. Oh well.

    As far as bike choice, Rob will get you an RT if you really want one, but 43 years of experience is worth listening to as well. Sounds like you did many of the big passes on your tour, Rob tends to avoid the main roads, for the roads less traveled. I have been on Roads on Beach tours that Global Rider refers to, the small out of the way, NO traffic, local roads that 90% of NA riders will never see. And on these passes, an RT is big. There is very little 60mph stuff on his routes. I ride hard and fast and average about 55kpm most days, It is wonderful and what keeps me going back.
    No RT for me! No way, no how. It wasn't handling - I was a little uncertain about that. I have a couple of near-Alpine routes available for testing. The demo RT did well with the turns and, by then, I'd figured out the "keep it above 3K" thing. Better still, it had that clutchless shift feature. I wish the Edelweiss bike had it, too.

    I did manage a garage drop for the dumbest of reasons. The group was stopped in a cluster while the guide scouted out a fave road (new house in the way - so much for that). I leaned over to get a catch on the pannier of the GS next to me and... oops! No damage done to anything but my pride. But...! Early on the first or second day, some poor soul (not me!) tipped over 5 bikes in the "barn".

    We covered a good mix of roads, including a couple of small-sized gravel stretches. I rode some of that standing. Meh. Ain't no biggie. As I said earlier, I just didn't feel as though I was horsing the bike around. Maybe it's because my K1200RS needs a bit of umph at low speeds; Be there, do that.

    Another aspect is the likely hood that you will have a tip over is much higher than here, in the last 15 years I have had a parking lot tip over maybe 6-8 times, and all but one was in the Alps. It is not that it is dangerous, but you will be stopping to take pictures, eat, for cappuccino etc. numerous times a day, and many of the places you may stop are not nice level places (you are in the mountains after all) so the chances of a misplaced foot are far greater. With an RT and its painted and color matched everything, and the fact that they are BMW fleet bikes every scratch will cost you big $ for damages and a simple slip of the foot can be costly. That is one of the reasons Rob does not have any in his personal fleet. The same tip over with one of Robs bikes will be much cheaper, he will not charge you for a new saddlebag lid for a new scratch, as you likely are just adding to some that may already be there. They want you to go home with just a fond memory of your adventure, not a bill for damages.
    See above re: garage drop. I'm a devout believer in "speed is life". I suppose encountering a stopped car in mid-turn could be dicey, but that would be true for anyone. I try hard to keep my head on a swivel and keep good SA going. So far, so good.

    My "we are thorough, we are proactive, we are insured" wife insisted on paying for zero deductible. I slept very well, thanks.

    After a couple of tour with Beach, I also did my own thing a few times, one was $$ concerns, as we took our 3 boys with us, and my pocketbook was not up to paying for 5 bikes and 6 people with all the benefits the tour brings. And once because the wife had some business in Prague, which we stretched into a 16 day trip. But the wife and I keep going back with Beach's. There is value in the extra cost, so if you have the means give them a shot next time. I have meet at least a dozen people that were on their fist Beach tour after touring with Edelweiss and others, and every single one said they would never go back to anyone else for a MC tour. The fact that 60%-75% of the riders are repeat customers says a lot.

    Even looking at this thread, You were lukewarm about your experience, Nelliott and I had an entirely different take away, and can't wait for more.

    Happy travels!
    More to come after breakfast.

    ADDED: Apparently there's some ambiguity about my comments about the trip. The riding experience was stimulating and added a great deal to my riding skill set. I have zero regrets about being where I was. My problems are with Edelweiss, and the tour aspect of the trip. I very much like the sound of Beach's tours. But... I am very done with high-star hotels. Most of the amenities (pool, etc.) are lost during the day. By the time I get back to the hotel, a shower is enough swimming and sauna. Limited menu Prix Fixe dinners... pass. There are viable alternatives without having to accept the local version of Motel 6.

    I still have more homework to do.
    Last edited by RBEmerson; 11-27-2016 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Update
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  5. #35
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    Dang. More and more, I'm kicking myself for not digging further into Beach instead of going with Edelweiss. The initial investigation gave me the impression Beach's was more "we know what's best for you" than appears to be the case. Sigh... done is done.
    ..........................!
    Got a chuckle out of this one as his philosophy is just the opposite. He does have 43 years of experience backing him so he will advise, but not dictate. These are from the Beach website, and I can tell you from experience, they are all true.

    "No 7 a.m. reveille nor 10 p.m. taps! No “this is the route for the day and we’ll meet for lunch at Homer’s restaurant at 12:15 sharp!” No regimentation! No “you must!” No “it has to be!” These are tours that are not group tours! Having pioneered Alpine mountain motorcycle touring, the Beachs know that individuals need rest and relaxation; the peace and serenity that come from getting away from organized entertainment and activities; time to be the explorer; time for peaceful reflection in a setting of great natural beauty and spectacular views.

    The Beachs stress the joy of individual exploration. By removing the obstacles and minimizing the problems, we provide an exceptional and memorable experience for the first time visitor as well as the experienced international tourer."


    Beach's on requiring group riding:
    "Absolutely not. Our function is to handle details, advise, suggest, but not herd. We do not like regimentation and do not impose it on tour members. Each tour member is free to choose his/her own daily riding companions, routing, and time schedule."

    I describe their set up as highly organized, yet as a rider you have complete autonomy.. It sounds counter intuitive, but they make it work flawlessly.

    As for bike selection, I too believe that smaller is better. On the trip I did myself, when my wife had business in Prague, we rode 2 up with all our luggage on an F700GS! And I passed many a solo rider in the mountains!

    Many people don't realize the F700GS has of the HIGHEST payload ratings in the BMW line! Add 55-60 miles per gallon when flogging it around the mountains saves $$ when using that expensive European fuel.
    2010 F800GS Full Ohlins package, '04 R1100S Replika
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  6. #36
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    It was the opening part of the home page that lost me. It came off as doctrinaire enough to encourage me to move on. Unfortunately for me, I saw Edelweiss with beer goggles. I now think they're over-extended and losing track of the important details. But thinking they were what most people remember from a few years (or more) back, I went with them. Done is done.

    We're going to go roundy round on bike choices. About the only types of BMW I haven't ridden are the S', LT's, and the 1200GS' (even had a chance to sample one of the bikes with the Earles fork front suspension). Most of this has been either loaners (tried a Triumph Thunderbird that way - never again!) or the occasional demos (typically 50-100 miles each, occasionally more). For example, I see the appeal of the F700GS. I had a lot of fun with it over the week I had it. It's just not my bike. Ride your own ride and all that.

    At the risk of repeating, or bragging on myself, I've spent enough time in Germany to understand much of the ins and outs of German life. On a really good day, my German is good enough that people think I'm from Holland, not an "Ami". (silly them) My wife (she's German) and I have some experience with many places where German is spoken. I want to be clear on this: I do not count myself as a local. All of that being said, my point is any Alps tour is, for me, not an "OMG! I'm in Europe and the Alps! OMG!" experience. It's the riding that's novel; the rest has some degree of familiarity or I can usually put it into context. And this means I come to tours or trips with a different perspective.

    But enough about me...
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    It was the opening part of the home page that lost me. It came off as doctrinaire enough to encourage me to move on. Unfortunately for me, I saw Edelweiss with beer goggles. I now think they're over-extended and losing track of the important details. But thinking they were what most people remember from a few years (or more) back, I went with them. Done is done.

    We're going to go roundy round on bike choices. About the only types of BMW I haven't ridden are the S', LT's, and the 1200GS' (even had a chance to sample one of the bikes with the Earles fork front suspension). Most of this has been either loaners (tried a Triumph Thunderbird that way - never again!) or the occasional demos (typically 50-100 miles each, occasionally more). For example, I see the appeal of the F700GS. I had a lot of fun with it over the week I had it. It's just not my bike. Ride your own ride and all that.

    At the risk of repeating, or bragging on myself, I've spent enough time in Germany to understand much of the ins and outs of German life. On a really good day, my German is good enough that people think I'm from Holland, not an "Ami". (silly them) My wife (she's German) and I have some experience with many places where German is spoken. I want to be clear on this: I do not count myself as a local. All of that being said, my point is any Alps tour is, for me, not an "OMG! I'm in Europe and the Alps! OMG!" experience. It's the riding that's novel; the rest has some degree of familiarity or I can usually put it into context. And this means I come to tours or trips with a different perspective.

    But enough about me...
    I think you should get the bike you want, and then tell us after your spend two weeks on tiny roads, going slow, extremely tight corners and passing trucks (coming by you head on) on a one lane road/track with no where to go.

    If you do it with a bike bike and love it, more power to you!
    Take some pictures and videos.

    The R1200GS was really nice, and I may even do the same bike again for my next tour, although I know the F700GS is more than one needs. and it certainly would be less tiring at the end of the day. But I am used to fully linked brakes, on a 1200 front end; my ride in Canada is a 2008 R1200RT.

    My wife is German, from Germany, and we go every two years on average, visit relatives and do some travelling. I still LOVE Europe. And, in my opinion, touring the Alps on a motorcycle is the absolute BEST WAY to do it!

    Let us know how you like it, and let Rob now we recommended them to you!

    I'm just pondering booking now for June 2018, to ensure I have a spot. (Can change the timing, but can't get in if it is full!)
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  8. #38
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    At the end of a week I knew the RT quite well. Keep the revs up, lean the bike over, and it went like it was on rails. At 10 mph as well as 80+. Head on a swivel, keep SA going, speed is life, lean out when slow, lean in when fast. I just happen to now not like boxers. There it is.

    I just went back over my GPS data from the trip, looking at the tracks as well as the speed/altitude graph, and summary. For the 900+ miles, the average speed was about 34 mph. The highest average was on "Stelvio day", which seems counter-intuitive. The average was boosted by the high speed run through the Engadin region. One rider claimed 230 km/hr (140+ mph) in places. I stuck with 130 km/hr (about 80), the Swiss national autobahn limit (open secondary roads are less). Swiss speeding fines can be horrendous. By that point I'd been nailed by a radar camera on Austrian A12 (autobahn), doing 10 km/hr over the posted limit. (Having no front plate, there's nothing to ID the bike) Considered me having a dose of speed religion.

    For anyone with Garmin's Basecamp and European maps, I'll be happy to make the track data available.

    Much to my annoyance, the people on the trip who had cameras never shared any video, save for one clip with a camera looking at forks, front wheel, and pavement - rushing wind for the soundtrack.

    I now have my camera. For the curious, see the following on my channel: https://youtu.be/aSHvorcMMZQ and https://youtu.be/xVDnobcWuRA Hardly great movie-making or riding. At least the music's not too bad. For anyone wanting to know about the Sena Prism camera, there they are. One comment: both videos were processed to get rid of the "fisheye" effect. The Prism, like most cameras, will deliver a noticeable fisheye at the 130 deg. setting. But I digress...
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  9. #39
    Cowboyatheart
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  10. #40
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    Great thanks!
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  11. #41
    Registered User gfspencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    Edelweiss... at least for me, the group never really gelled. From what I've heard, and what I read in the pre-tour info, there were supposed to be some get acquainted events (including the group picnic that's supposed to be a hallmark of the Edelweiss experience). None of that happened. Everyone was left to sort themselves as best they could.
    I've been on five Edelweiss tours. They were all different . . . but there was never a get acquainted event that I remember. On some of the tours some groups gelled. On some they didn't gell. I think it would be like that with any tour company. The one problem that I see with Edelweiss is that sometimes their groups are too big. I don't like to ride with 15 other bikes.
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  12. #42
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfspencer View Post
    I've been on five Edelweiss tours. They were all different . . . but there was never a get acquainted event that I remember. On some of the tours some groups gelled. On some they didn't gell. I think it would be like that with any tour company. The one problem that I see with Edelweiss is that sometimes their groups are too big. I don't like to ride with 15 other bikes.
    Sigh... I keep leaving out a detail. In the "last mailing before you leave" packet was a list of almost everybody's email addresses. I sent out an email broadcast, with an introduction, and a reminder to reply-all. There was a fair amount of chatter. I don't remember if it was because of the mailing or concurrent, someone put up a blog and, again, there was some activity. The Wordpress blog was something of a challenge to use - Wordpress was not a friend to anyone. Much of the group had at least a nodding acquaintance before the tour started. Which makes the lack of "gelling" somewhat more puzzling.

    One of Edelweiss' more or less fixed events is the group picnic. The guides dropped that. There was a group picture one day 1 and after that, nada. After riding - dinner, before riding - breakfast. Anything else was either waiting for the briefing or during stops.

    19 bikes in one tour was ...um... not a good idea. That's one of the big down-checks: Edelweiss should have managed the issue before the tour started.

    I'll point out that two people joined the tour about two weeks before the start date. They were the two Malaysian (not Indonesian - my error) riders. I guess they were added, after the close-out date, because of travel plans? Anyway, they brought the count to 19. Both rode HD's. I haven't a clue about most HD models - not Buells and not Sportsters, for sure, but with bags, cowhorn bars, and floorboards. One of the guys was scary fearless with his bike, the other wasn't as flashy but good NTL.
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  13. #43
    Registered User gfspencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBEmerson View Post
    Sigh... I keep leaving out a detail. In the "last mailing before you leave" packet was a list of almost everybody's email addresses. I sent out an email broadcast, with an introduction, and a reminder to reply-all. There was a fair amount of chatter. I don't remember if it was because of the mailing or concurrent, someone put up a blog and, again, there was some activity. The Wordpress blog was something of a challenge to use - Wordpress was not a friend to anyone. Much of the group had at least a nodding acquaintance before the tour started. Which makes the lack of "gelling" somewhat more puzzling.

    One of Edelweiss' more or less fixed events is the group picnic. The guides dropped that. There was a group picture one day 1 and after that, nada. After riding - dinner, before riding - breakfast. Anything else was either waiting for the briefing or during stops.

    19 bikes in one tour was ...um... not a good idea. That's one of the big down-checks: Edelweiss should have managed the issue before the tour started.

    I'll point out that two people joined the tour about two weeks before the start date. They were the two Malaysian (not Indonesian - my error) riders. I guess they were added, after the close-out date, because of travel plans? Anyway, they brought the count to 19. Both rode HD's. I haven't a clue about most HD models - not Buells and not Sportsters, for sure, but with bags, cowhorn bars, and floorboards. One of the guys was scary fearless with his bike, the other wasn't as flashy but good NTL.
    Sigh.... I'm not disagreeing with you but I am saying that almost every Edelweiss tour that I have ever been on was different. In other words, don't judge Edelweiss - or any other tour company - by one tour. I've had two great tours with them. Two were very good. One tour sucked. The tour that sucked had far too many people on it. Five of us decided to ride on our own. We made our own tour. We just arrived at the hotel at night for dinner.

    Yes, I always got the names of people who were going to be on the tour. On one tour I actually met with and rode with two of the participants before we got to Europe. On another tour the participants were all from Mexico. I did not meet with them or even correspond with them. No big deal.

    As far as the picnic goes . . . things happen. I missed a picnic on one of my tours. No big deal. A picnic is a picnic.
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  14. #44
    Kein Nasebohrer RBEmerson's Avatar
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    You only get one chance to make a good first impression; for me, they flunked.
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  15. #45
    Cowboyatheart
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    I agree with your, RBEmerson,sentiment entirely.

    And to add, someone can screw up and then totally recover, it is still a marred first experience, but they have to do that recovery to an extraordinary level in the moment in order to maintain credibility and make things right. Which obviously means, they have to understand and recognize that they have a problem to begin with. I am sure that many of you have experienced this screw up/recovery situation. If you reflect upon that, you will also agree that the recovery made things right.
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