Wouldn't it be cool if BMW…

Wouldn't it be cool if BMW made a 650 modeled after the R 1200 GS.

An exact replica of the R 1200 GS Wethead but a 650. Lighter, maybe a little less tall, slightly less wide. Make the torque curve and the horsepower similar to the F 700 GS. But make the performance like the R 1200 GS wet head. And by exact replica, I mean all of the electronic goodies. An R 1200 GS baby brother.

I would be all over picking one of those puppies up!

I know where you are coming from and I'd just about wet myself for an R800GS (I'd kill the F800 line, return the F series to singles). The problem I believe, even if it's a 600 series, is there's isn't enough cost difference between manufacturing a 1200 boxer and a smaller boxer to have enough retail price difference between the two. I can't image a large sales volumes of a small boxer if you could have a larger for 1-2 grand more.

Maybe if we see the R1200 go to a 1300 or 1400, but even then, I don't think the margin would be there to price the bike where they would have to for the NA market.

My first BMW was an R850R which had plenty of power and ran much smoother than the 1100GS I traded up to after a couple years. It suffered what you are talking about in that there was very little difference in cost between the 850R and the 1100R so they only made it for a couple years.

BMW wrestled with the same issue in the 80s and 90s: the production cost of the K75 bikes was almost as high as that of the K100 machines, but the market - judging the motor displacement as determinative of value - would only pay a little more for the 4-cylinder bikes.

Why kill the 800 twin? I like the motor better than the boxer for an adventure bike, and it isn't a bad highway cruiser either, just add a tooth to the front sprocket. Plus I average over 50 mpg flogging the crap out of it in 2nd and 3rd gears in the Smokies, and have pushed 70mpg at a less spirited pace. Add 5K plus miles on a set of tires (boxer only gave me about 2K /set) and I am a happy camper.


Loved the motor from my first ride on an ST back in '07.

dbrick said:

BMW wrestled with the same issue in the 80s and 90s: the production cost of the K75 bikes was almost as high as that of the K100 machines, but the market - judging the motor displacement as determinative of value - would only pay a little more for the 4-cylinder bikes.

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The triple was smooth, the four wasn't.............

nelliott said:

Wouldn't it be cool if BMW made a 650 modeled after the R 1200 GS.

An exact replica of the R 1200 GS Wethead but a 650. Lighter, maybe a little less tall, slightly less wide. Make the torque curve and the horsepower similar to the F 700 GS. But make the performance like the R 1200 GS wet head. And by exact replica, I mean all of the electronic goodies. An R 1200 GS baby brother.

I would be all over picking one of those puppies up!

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I have a 650 single and love it. It can go down the highway just fine (Prudhoe - Key West) and can do singletrack not acting like a jeep. Something I think the people on the GS1200WC may have to work a little at. If the mothership would put a bigger tank and some electronics on the 650 I would be over the moon.

Buutttt -what your talking about is completely different. I have an 850R (160K) and I would love to see a mid sized shaft drive GS Boxer Adventure that got better mileage than my Cruze Diesel. Something scoring an everyday 65 mpg with a 400 mile range so we don't get range anxiety looking for out of the way places like Pender Harbour, B.C..

And if they made something like that Neil, you would not be "picking one of those puppies up".

You would be standing in line.

Wayne Koppa
Life 71,449

I would much rather see an 800RT.

nelliott said:

Wouldn't it be cool if BMW made a 650 modeled after the R 1200 GS.

An exact replica of the R 1200 GS Wethead but a 650. Lighter, maybe a little less tall, slightly less wide. Make the torque curve and the horsepower similar to the F 700 GS. But make the performance like the R 1200 GS wet head. And by exact replica, I mean all of the electronic goodies. An R 1200 GS baby brother.

I would be all over picking one of those puppies up!

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How much less would an R650 GS weigh compared to an R1200GS.... 40-75 pounds maximum? How much does 40-75 pounds of metal and plastic cost $100? Because that's all the savings there'd be at at the manufacturing level. Would you be willing to pay within $300-even $500 the cost of a R1200 for an R650? It's not raw material cost, the big cost in motorcycles is in the designing, R&D, tooling, testing, compliance, distribution and warranty, etc.

milo said:

Would you be willing to pay within $300-even $500 the cost of a R1200 for an R650?

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Yes

That's why the R850 approach didn't work well cost-wise, but if you're really designing the bike as a 650 then you don't have to build the rest of it like it's a 1200. You don't need a drivetrain that will survive 120HP for instance, and the chassis can be lighter because it's carrying a lighter drivetrain. But that takes design time and different tooling, and BMW has made it pretty clear for ten years now that they don't want to take the boxer in this direction. They are pursuing horsepower because that's how they see the market.

milo said:

How much less would an R650 GS weigh compared to an R1200GS.... 40-75 pounds maximum? How much does 40-75 pounds of metal and plastic cost $100? Because that's all the savings there'd be at at the manufacturing level. Would you be willing to pay within $300-even $500 the cost of a R1200 for an R650? It's not raw material cost, the big cost in motorcycles is in the designing, R&D, tooling, testing, compliance, distribution and warranty, etc.

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AntonLargiader said:

That's why the R850 approach didn't work well cost-wise, but if you're really designing the bike as a 650 then you don't have to build the rest of it like it's a 1200. You don't need a drivetrain that will survive 120HP for instance, and the chassis can be lighter because it's carrying a lighter drivetrain. But that takes design time and different tooling, and BMW has made it pretty clear for ten years now that they don't want to take the boxer in this direction. They are pursuing horsepower because that's how they see the market.

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A smaller displacement only version of the boxer isn't going to spur sales and will not as a result be economically viable to the mothership or the market if the only thing that is different is the displacement. As much as I love my 850R it did not set any sales records that I knew of.

A successful smaller GS has to offer features the big bike doesn't. The first would be markedly higher MPG and subsequently range. The second would be longer service intervals and the third would be (part of the service issue but a separate consideration for most) a tubeless tire design that gets us past the mileages most of us are seeing. I am willing to trade horsepower for mileage and tire life and service inspections.

Cycle News this week http://magazine.cyclenews.com/i/553925-cycle-news-2015-issue-32-august-11 (electronic subscriptions are free) makes mention of UK Ricardo Motorcycles doing the design of the K1600 and K1300. Surely they have someone out there that can do the engine part of this. If not BMW in house or Ricardo - someone else. Someone from BMW Motorrad teased they had a diesel in the works a few years ago.

A mid sized world adventure bike with exceptional mileage that we don't have to lay a wrench on for 15k could be pretty ugly and I would still buy it.

Just sayin

Wayne Koppa
Life 71,449

wkoppa said:

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A mid sized world adventure bike with exceptional mileage that we don't have to lay a wrench on for 15k could be pretty ugly and I would still buy it.
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You just described the F650GS both single and twin, the F700GS and the F800GS! Not sure what you are looking for, you want a WIDER heavier version?

Little known fact the F700GS has a HIGHER payload capacity than the R1200GS or GS ADV, in fact the highest payload of any BMW, incl the RT and GLT models!

What do you have against the F series? My bet is that there have been more F650GS thumpers ridden on world adventures than the boxers, since the F bikes inception.

I like my Thumper - It could be better.

"What do you have against the F series? My bet is that there have been more F650GS thumpers ridden on world adventures than the boxers, since the F bikes inception."

No - I like my thumper - but it could be a lot better.

I am no "world adventurer" but I rode from Michigan to Prudhoe Bay to Key West to Michigan last year in 20 days on my G650GS. According to my valve inspect requirements I should have done two service visits during the 13,170 mile trip. I think Yamaha and Ducati have models out there with much longer valve inspect periods. I think BMW engineers and their manufacturing requirements should be able to do the same.

Fuel capacity on the G650Gs is dismal. I like to stop but not necessarily at gas stations. Up north of here you start spending a significant amount of anxiety trying to stay out of trouble by filling up early. Riding to the AIMExpo and back last year had something like 21 fuel stops. I have a fix for that but on something characterized as an adventure bike there should have a better fuel capacity option.

Riding solo, I think this is the best bike for me in the BMW line. I can cruise all day at 80 mph and its nimble enough to take into the woods. Runs fine on low octane and chain and sprockets go about 20k. Coming out of Prudhoe last year it rained and I was making great time and having fun. I would of loved to be riding with a couple people on the bigger two GS alternatives to see if it made much of a difference being on the smaller of the three.

This bike has the capability to do it all with a little bit of work here and there. It may be a mute point as that I don't know how long the platform is going to be in the line-up.

So - No I don't have anything against the thumpers - I think they are generally underrated and under appreciated.

Wayne Koppa
71,449 Life
DRZ 250, R100RS, R850R, G650GS

pffog said:

You just described the F650GS both single and twin, the F700GS and the F800GS! Not sure what you are looking for, you want a WIDER heavier version?

Little known fact the F700GS has a HIGHER payload capacity than the R1200GS or GS ADV, in fact the highest payload of any BMW, incl the RT and GLT models!

What do you have against the F series? My bet is that there have been more F650GS thumpers ridden on world adventures than the boxers, since the F bikes inception.

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Interesting stats.

milo said:

Would you be willing to pay within $300-even $500 the cost of a R1200 for an R650?

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I echo Paul's response "YES!"

I love the boxer motor. A 650 boxer with a good torque curve, good horsepower, good gas mileage, better tire mileage, and lighter, in my opinion, would fill a very nice niche market.

I just finished a tour this morning of the BMW motorrad plant in Berlin. A fantastic tour. And yes I will be writing BMW about the idea expressed above.

I am sure the F 700s are nice bikes as well as the G650, however I love the look and feel of the boxer.

I also would be tempted to upgrade from my 700GS for a boxer engine. I've never owned a boxer, and due to the size and weight of current offerings, probably never will, but sure would like to! I've just ordered a camel for my 700, but sure would appreciate more range with a small boxer if it were available!

As far as the "feel of the boxer" goes, I find the water cooled boxers to feel a lot like the F800 motors (at least, compared to the older boxers).

That said, the F800GS isn't the smaller adventure tourer some people want because of the height, the tube-type tires and the weak rear subframe. The engine, though, doesn't tend to be among the complaints I hear.

An updated R80GS?

Thanks Anton for mentioning tube tires as being an issue. Its an advantage to go tubeless over a lot of miles. I was speaking to a K1200 rider with a KLR last night and I remarked that having the mag wheel option on my little GS was a plus to me. One of the disadvantages of the 800ADV was going back to tubes.

Height is also a factor. I am a little undertall but have 50 years (or one year 50 times) of experience picking places to stop where there is a slight depression on the ground where I want to put my foot. Newer riders are less fortunate.

The valve adjustment on the G650GS is a process and everyone is spoiled after doing a valve clearance check on a boxer.

The mothership seems to have this interest in looking back with the R9T.

An updated R80GS with a big tank option, electronic updates, tubeless tires, reasonable saddle height, a bike ready for exploring the world.

Just sayin

Wayne Koppa
71,449 Life

updated R80

I am afraid Harley Davidson is alone in being able to add $10000 for an additional 7 cubic inches. I for one would be just happy if BMW put a 6 gallon tank on a GS. I know the GSA holds 9 gallons +- some.