Counter steering

Harry hits the nail on the head, you just can't say it any better. if you "pushed in the other direction" wouldn't that be pulling?

Really it's weight transfer

Pushing the opposite direction you want to turn is simply an emphasis on weight transfer. There's no pulling on the opposite side. Pushing down with your leg and foot will accomplish the same thing - again weight transfer. Weight transfer not only side to side but forward too. If you try "counter steering" leaning back it's a lot harder than when you lean forward and "counter steer." The center of gravity (CG) is moved slightly foward with more emphasis on the front wheel vs the rear wheel. That's why standing up in GS riding is so important. And no, when standing up the CG is not lowered but raised. But weight transfer for steering is greatly enhanced for side to side and forward which equals steering.

nakwakto00 said:

Pushing the opposite direction you want to turn is simply an emphasis on weight transfer. There's no pulling on the opposite side. Pushing down with your leg and foot will accomplish the same thing - again weight transfer. Weight transfer not only side to side but forward too. If you try "counter steering" leaning back it's a lot harder than when you lean forward and "counter steer." The center of gravity (CG) is moved slightly foward with more emphasis on the front wheel vs the rear wheel. That's why standing up in GS riding is so important. And no, when standing up the CG is not lowered but raised. But weight transfer for steering is greatly enhanced for side to side and forward which equals steering.

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You are seriously misguided if you think you can you steer your bike with your feet (try it with the cruise control on and your hands off the bars) . As stated earlier, Keith Code has built a bike to prove you wrong. Look at the difference in body position between a sport bike rider and someone riding a super motard, one guy hanging off inside the turn and the other guy practically standing up. Weight transfer has nothing to do with making the bike turn.

sedanman said:

Weight transfer has nothing to do with making the bike turn.

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Hmm? Misguided eh? Why not read the "Ask A Pro" article in the April 2015 BMW ON Magazine, pages 88-89. Specifically, "By moving your body to the opposite side of the bike, the majority of your weight will be on the outside footpeg." Oh well you have your way and I have mine. All I can say is that it surely works for me. Happy trails!

sedanman said:

You are seriously misguided if you think you can you steer your bike with your feet (try it with the cruise control on and your hands off the bars) . As stated earlier, Keith Code has built a bike to prove you wrong. Look at the difference in body position between a sport bike rider and someone riding a super motard, one guy hanging off inside the turn and the other guy practically standing up. Weight transfer has nothing to do with making the bike turn.

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OK - I am going to jump into this quagmire. First off, Keith Code's "No BS" bike was a skillfully articulated scam. It was built specifically to imply that the manner of body steering then being taught by Reg Pridmore was not true and was done so specifically to discredit Pridmore's CLASS school which was in competition with Code's school. That specific bike, with its specific steering geometry would not change direction even slightly. Good show. Fooled lots of moto-journalists including two or three I respect. It wouldn't have fooled skilled desertn riders for more than a few moments though.

Some bikes can be steered with weight and balance and some can't. It depends on the steering geometry. Many light weight dirt bikes can easily be steered with weight and balance just like you all did as kids on bicycles - designed precisely that way to minimize front tire push in loose stuff like sand and loose gravel. That is one reason folks stand on pegs and shift weight - to initiate a turn in loose stuff.

Ask the gurus at any good off-road riding school and they will explain it quite readily. And it doesn't agree with the "No BS Bike" BS.

That is not to imply that countersteering isn't how motorcycles turn because countersteering simply is. It isn't an option. That initial shift in the contact patch can be started with a push on the bars or with some bikes, with a lean of the bike.

I rode for several years without knowing about counter-steering. I was doing it but didn't know it. Then I read an article in Rider magazine (in the 70's) about counter-steering and after that my turns in the curves were precise rather than being all over the road.

nakwakto00 said:

Hmm? Misguided eh? Why not read the "Ask A Pro" article in the April 2015 BMW ON Magazine, pages 88-89. Specifically, "By moving your body to the opposite side of the bike, the majority of your weight will be on the outside footpeg." Oh well you have your way and I have mine. All I can say is that it surely works for me. Happy trails!

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Lee Parks is talking there about a U-turn at walking speed. Different physics. Too slow to be a counter steering situation.

If l set the cruise control on my RT or the wife's GS and take my hands off the bars I CAN make the bike stay on track of change lanes S L O W L Y by shifting my weight. NOTHING has such a direct and immediate effect on the the direction of ANY motorcycle as direct input to the handlebar. In a contest between weight bias and handlebar input, handlebar input wins everytime.

I have spoken directly to Lee Parks. He has even ridden my wife's GS. He and l are the same page about countersteering.

learned counter steering in the early 70's

The first time I heard of it the method suggested was to pull on the handlebar opposite the direction you want to go. Talk about counter intuitive. But unless your arms are very long in relationship to the handlebars, you are actually doing just that after initiating the turn with a push.

sedanman said:

If l set the cruise control on my RT or the wife's GS and take my hands off the bars I CAN make the bike stay on track of change lanes S L O W L Y by shifting my weight. NOTHING has such a direct and immediate effect on the the direction of ANY motorcycle as direct input to the handlebar. In a contest between weight bias and handlebar input, handlebar input wins everytime.

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I agree 100%. But that doesn't mean you can't initiate a turn with weight and lean. And I'll add the caveat that here in the desert that quick direct input to the bars can dump you in the sand.

The street and the desert are two different animals for sure. The point l want to stress it this, if you find yourself in a situation where you absolutely must change the path of travel of your motorcycle instantly such as a motorist turning left in front of you, then countersteering has the best chance of saving your life.

I've also been thinking about what was said of the "no bs" bike being a farce and l disagree. It may have had its geometry alterered to make body steering impossible BUT countersteering STILL works!

sedanman said:

I've also been thinking about what was said of the "no bs" bike being a farce and l disagree. It may have had its geometry alterered to make body steering impossible BUT countersteering STILL works!

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Of course. Go back and read my post #7. The "No BS" BS bike wasn't about steering at all really. It was a crude attempt to discredit a competitor and was the point I lost all respect for Mr. Code and his business ethics.

IMHO counter steering is bollocks. Sure it works- but so does heaving the bike in the direction you want to go. Which is more natural? Definitely not pushing the handlebar one way to go the other. Start taking time to think about that and you're already too late. Forget about it, just do it.

jamesevans said:

IMHO counter steering is bollocks. Sure it works- but so does heaving the bike in the direction you want to go. Which is more natural? Definitely not pushing the handlebar one way to go the other. Start taking time to think about that and you're already too late. Forget about it, just do it.

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Well there is some clear thinking. Train yourself to counter steer and you'll be amazed at how quickly you can make an emergency maneuver. Now back to our regularly scheduled meeting of the Flat Earth Society.

There's NO thought required! Push left to turn left and push right to go right. lt couldn't be easier or more natural. When you "heave the bike " you ARE countersteering. You are just unaware of the forces you are applying to the bars. You will be a safer rider as soon as you open your mind to the possibility that the earth is round.

jamesevans said:

IMHO counter steering is bollocks. Sure it works- but so does heaving the bike in the direction you want to go. Which is more natural? Definitely not pushing the handlebar one way to go the other. Start taking time to think about that and you're already too late. Forget about it, just do it.

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April Fools was last week.

Harry

How does one "heave" a large bike?Has to be some input somewhere

We had a club rider who always leaned away from turns..it was scary to watch...also watched as he missed a turn and ended up in the cedar trees.
We discussed counter steering...he said it didn't work for him

jamesevans said:

IMHO counter steering is bollocks. Sure it works- but so does heaving the bike in the direction you want to go. Which is more natural? Definitely not pushing the handlebar one way to go the other. Start taking time to think about that and you're already too late. Forget about it, just do it.

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I drive a K1600, and a HD Ultra-Classic before it. There is absolutely NO way you can "Heave" 900lbs of motorcycle one way or another, short of standing on the seat with a bike pole through the bike for leverage, and even then it is still just (in my case) 190lbs.

Meanwhile, I counter-steer. My bikes all lean low and scrape if I let them at any speed, try that while 'heaving' those big guys.