You ride at night a lot? Give much thought to deer strikes?

rangerreece · Feb 12, 2015

Forensic investigation of this obituary

"He was 55, and had been on his way from a safety conference in California to Pittsburgh for his mother's 85th birthday, said his sister, Marcia Grodsky."

"...died Saturday on his bike in Fort Stockton, Texas, after being hit by a deer."

"Grodsky also wrote travel pieces for the magazine. He was doing one at the time of his death about buying a used motorcycle on eBay on the West Coast and riding it across the country to sell at the other end of his trip. It was a 1997 Kawasaki police bike," said Ms. Puglisi. "He was excited because it was unusual."

I re-read (and posted statements above) from the article as something about the article kept lingering in the back of my mind. In addition to the proficiency and recency requirements the army puts on it's aviators, army leadership also utilizes a very specific crew rest policy defined at each unit's level, proper rest is considered that important. Analyzing the disjointed article with few facts mentioned, (i.e. The deer strike time of day is missing, it may have occurred in the day or night, or paramount to the investigation the number of hours ridden/awake prior to the deer strike) I believe that the cause of the accident, or at least a major contributing factor was fatigue. If that is in fact the case in this instance, the message or "take away" might well be less about deer strikes and more about how accute or chronic fatigue can compromise even the safest, most talented motorcycle riders.

akbeemer · Feb 12, 2015

rangerreece said:
"He was 55, and had been on his way from a safety conference in California to Pittsburgh for his mother's 85th birthday, said his sister, Marcia Grodsky."

"...died Saturday on his bike in Fort Stockton, Texas, after being hit by a deer."

"Grodsky also wrote travel pieces for the magazine. He was doing one at the time of his death about buying a used motorcycle on eBay on the West Coast and riding it across the country to sell at the other end of his trip. It was a 1997 Kawasaki police bike," said Ms. Puglisi. "He was excited because it was unusual."

I re-read (and posted statements above) from the article as something about the article kept lingering in the back of my mind. In addition to the proficiency and recency requirements the army puts on it's aviators, army leadership also utilizes a very specific crew rest policy defined at each unit's level, proper rest is considered that important. Analyzing the disjointed article with few facts mentioned, (i.e. The deer strike time of day is missing, it may have occurred in the day or night, or paramount to the investigation the number of hours ridden/awake prior to the deer strike) I believe that the cause of the accident, or at least a major contributing factor was fatigue. If that is in fact the case in this instance, the message or "take away" might well be less about deer strikes and more about how accute or chronic fatigue can compromise even the safest, most talented motorcycle riders.

Pure supposition. Let it rest.

rangerreece · Feb 12, 2015

akbeemer said:
Pure supposition. Let it rest.

You are correct Kevin, speculation on my part, maybe not pure speculation; I was hoping that my quotes pulled from the article would indicate some relevance to my supposition. I consider pure speculation offensive and presumptuous, and try to avoid engaging in that activity.

I do believe that fatigue, like deer strikes, is a major issue with safety in our community, but unlike deer strikes, fatigue seems to be a taboo subject, I think maybe because it conflicts with the IBA culture very prevelant in the BMW motorrad community. If my posts regarding proven safety practices, regardless of the forum subject matter that facilitates the discussion, saves one life or hopefully more, than it was worth my time. Will I ever know that my diatribe here on the forums prevents riders from dying, no; these are the intangibles unproven but no less worthy of my time. Respectfully, from one ranger to another, regarding opportunities to push safety practices on a thread I would prefer to not "let it rest".

RLTW

BCKRider · Feb 13, 2015

rangerreece said:
"He was 55, and had been on his way from a safety conference in California to Pittsburgh for his mother's 85th birthday, said his sister, Marcia Grodsky."

"...died Saturday on his bike in Fort Stockton, Texas, after being hit by a deer."

"Grodsky also wrote travel pieces for the magazine. He was doing one at the time of his death about buying a used motorcycle on eBay on the West Coast and riding it across the country to sell at the other end of his trip. It was a 1997 Kawasaki police bike," said Ms. Puglisi. "He was excited because it was unusual."

I re-read (and posted statements above) from the article as something about the article kept lingering in the back of my mind. In addition to the proficiency and recency requirements the army puts on it's aviators, army leadership also utilizes a very specific crew rest policy defined at each unit's level, proper rest is considered that important. Analyzing the disjointed article with few facts mentioned, (i.e. The deer strike time of day is missing, it may have occurred in the day or night, or paramount to the investigation the number of hours ridden/awake prior to the deer strike) I believe that the cause of the accident, or at least a major contributing factor was fatigue. If that is in fact the case in this instance, the message or "take away" might well be less about deer strikes and more about how accute or chronic fatigue can compromise even the safest, most talented motorcycle riders.

Kevin, Lawrence Grodsky was known as "Mr. Safety," though this last crash was certainly not his first. I think he would be glad that people are still discussing that crash and possibly learning something from it. I only know Larry through his book, "Stayin' Safe, which is a very entertaining and informative read which I would recommend.

From the introduction to that book I can answer one of rangerreece's questions: "In April 2006 Larry was on his way home to Pittsburgh from California after attending the International Motorcycle Safety Conference there when, at night on an arrow-straight rural highway in Texas, a deer collided with his motorcycle and he was thrown from the bike. He died at the scene."

So, was fatigue a factor? Always a possibility when riding at night. Did this new-to-him motorcycle have extra lighting which might have given him the chance to see the deer and brake? Probably not. If he was not fatigued and had great lighting, would he have avoided the crash? Not for certain.

I think "safe" riding is all about recognizing risk, then doing what you have to to reduce the risk to your personal comfort level. Sometimes that is not enough. But it usually works.

henzilla · Feb 14, 2015

Accidents are so random and no two are exactly the same. There is a root cause and many possible causal factors at play. No amount of training or repetition will take away the factors not in ones control.

The death of Amanda Richardson, Liam Neesons late wife, from a minor ski fall and world champion driver Michael Schumachers ski accident show that it can happen to anyone anytime. Dale Earnhart was at the top of the sport and a minor crash that typically drivers walk away from had a deadly outcome.

John Ryan's death shook us all as well... well known LD Rider on a routine daylight ride...how the h did that happen?

A second or two , a different speed, a different contact spot could alter outcomes...Unfortunately, either way. Some folks have many miles behind them with no incidents, others always have a story. With any activity comes a risk, hopefully recognized and prepared for.

I don't think talking fatigue is taboo, yes, there are a lot of LD riders and a lot of fabled stories. The seasoned riders know how to manage that factor, most of us think we can and fail miserably...or get a lesson in personal limits that we can work on.

I know many here ride like the rest is trying to kill you...I think that takes a bit of the fun out of the ride. I know when I need to have my spidey senses on full, and when I can dial it back. Still get reminded at times that I am human.

Kristopher · Feb 14, 2015

bluehole said:
Generally speaking, if I am riding an interstate or well traveled highway, I feel more secure than riding a lightly traveled rural road. I know deer can still be present. It seems like the chance is a deer strike is not as great on the interstate. I am not saying it is completely safe...just that the type of road and environment (rural/urban) can be a factor in how safe I feel.

You have to weigh your options in your own mind and it of course all comes down to your own personal choice on how you feel. I think if you hit one at highway speed you don't have much of a chance at survival. For me it's usually

1.Highway through town on major highway a short stretch (well lit) then dark highway through woods, farm fields etc. 55mph to 80 mph.
2.Go through town and then travel on an old highway (two lane) well traveled but very dark woods, fields etc. Cagers might want to push you along so to speak at 45 mph to 55 mph.
3. Go through town and then hit very dark but less traveled roads at your own pace, 25 mph to 35 mph, yes I'm going through a golf course and high probability zones but much slower.

I always choose number three, it makes me feel more safe. I try to usually choose number four which is be home on the deck with a cold one and my mandolin or banjo before it gets dark.

pglaves · Feb 14, 2015

I just drove (car) last night about 50 miles home on TX 118 south of Alpine in the dark. The notion that a brownish deer standing in waist high brownish grass beside a brownish bush was going to be immediately visible as I approached at 65 or 70 mph is laughable. Maybe if I added several auxilliary lights to the car like I have on the bikes but I still doubt it. Spotting deer while sitting stationary in the woods is one thing. Spotting them beside a hilly twisty road while traveling at highway speed is a different story. A neighbor just totalled her full size van about 8 miles down the road when she hit a burro last week.

AKsuited · Feb 14, 2015

rangerreece said:
I do believe that fatigue, like deer strikes, is a major issue with safety in our community, but unlike deer strikes, fatigue seems to be a taboo subject, I think maybe because it conflicts with the IBA culture very prevelant in the BMW motorrad community.

+1

Harry

Paul_F · Feb 14, 2015

At our local ABC Rally, at which I do a lot of organizing, I "creative camp", meaning that since I live so close to the camp grounds, I return home each night to sleep in my bed.

I always drive my van loaded with rally supplies for setup on the Friday. I used to always drive home Friday night and return with a bike and ride home late on the Saturday and Sunday evenings (I don't drink) and return on Monday morning with the van for packing up the club tent and other items.

A couple of years ago I had a talk with myself. Since I avoid riding in the dark when on trips, why was I riding home at night from this rally in deer infested country? For the last two years I drive on each trip to and from the rally with my "creative camping". Much safer for sure.

36654 · Feb 14, 2015

PGlaves said:
I just drove (car) last night about 50 miles home on TX 118 south of Alpine in the dark. The notion that a brownish deer standing in waist high brownish grass beside a brownish bush was going to be immediately visible as I approached at 65 or 70 mph is laughable. Maybe if I added several auxilliary lights to the car like I have on the bikes but I still doubt it. Spotting deer while sitting stationary in the woods is one thing. Spotting them beside a hilly twisty road while traveling at highway speed is a different story. A neighbor just totalled her full size van about 8 miles down the road when she hit a burro last week.

I hate to agree with you, but try as we may we can't control or beware of everything. Paraphasing the prayer ........"grant me the wisdom to accept those things I can't change, see or react to and modify my habits accordingly....."

It's not a matter of getting older, it's the beauty of gaining knowledge.....

pglaves · Feb 14, 2015

36654 said:
I hate agree with you, but try as we may we can't control or beware of everything. Paraphasing the prayer ........"grant me the wisdom to accept those things I can't change, see or react to and modify my habits accordingly....."

It's not a matter of getting older, it's beauty of gaining knowledge.....

Believe me, I have ridden more than my share at night. We used to go to 10, or 12, or up to 15 local rallies a year, ranging from 80 to 650 miles from home. For most we left Friday afternoon and arrived near midnight - in Missouri, Eastern Oklahoma, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona, Indiana, Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota etc. starting at home in Kansas. I have finished two Iron Butt Rallies and done a 49 state 10 day ride. Night riding: I have done it. I can do it. I prefer not to. And question the wisdom in deer infested country unless it is necessary.

wbrownell9 · Feb 14, 2015

henzilla said:
<snip> I know many here ride like the rest is trying to kill you...I think that takes a bit of the fun out of the ride. <snip>

Agree, plus I find it mentally exhausting to be hyper-alert for significant periods of time. Which gets back to the fatigue factor.

rangerreece · Feb 14, 2015

PGlaves said:
Believe me, I have ridden more than my share at night. We used to go to 10, or 12, or up to 15 local rallies a year, ranging from 80 to 650 miles from home. For most we left Friday afternoon and arrived near midnight - in Missouri, Eastern Oklahoma, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona, Indiana, Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota etc. starting at home in Kansas. I have finished two Iron Butt Rallies and done a 49 state 10 day ride. Night riding: I have done it. I can do it. I prefer not to. And question the wisdom in deer infested country unless it is necessary.

wbrownell9 said:
Agree, plus I find it mentally exhausting to be hyper-alert for significant periods of time. Which gets back to the fatigue factor.

Both really good points. I wish we cold get a wide audience of riders viewing this conversation. Very few riders have this kind of wealth of experience, and tapping into this kind of decision making and risk mitigation discussion is invaluable.

henzilla · Feb 15, 2015

We have a lot of State and County roads crossing creeks as many areas do. Instead of riding the ridges, we seem to follow the low spots with roads.

At night you have no idea how much water is over the road as flash flooding is common during any rain event. It can be raining upstream a few miles and these creeks go crazy quickly. Dark asphalt and water kinda blend.
So, on top of wildlife awareness, this causes us issues after sunset if it is or has been raining. I found some local ones the past few days, some still have water on them a week after the last rain. Watched a Mercedes plow through a foot deep one ahead of me around 30MPH on a downhill county crossing yesterday...then passed him shortly as he either stalled or was cleaning his shorts...steam was wafting from the front end!

The signage is being updated to bright yellow gauges the past few years, but a long way to go in every county.
There are many of these on the FM/RM/RR designated State Roads with speed limits 55-70.

Anyways, that's another reason to not ride around here after dark if possible.

36654 · Feb 15, 2015

henzilla said:
We have a lot of State and County roads crossing creeks as many areas do. Instead of riding the ridges, we seem to follow the low spots with roads.

At night you have no idea how much water is over the road as flash flooding is common during any rain event. It can be raining upstream a few miles and these creeks go crazy quickly. Dark asphalt and water kinda blend.
So, on top of wildlife awareness, this causes us issues after sunset if it is or has been raining. I found some local ones the past few days, some still have water on them a week after the last rain. Watched a Mercedes plow through a foot deep one ahead of me around 30MPH on a downhill county crossing yesterday...then passed him shortly as he either stalled or was cleaning his shorts...steam was wafting from the front end!

The signage is being updated to bright yellow gauges the past few years, but a long way to go in every county.
There are many of these on the FM/RM/RR designated State Roads with speed limits 55-70.

Anyways, that's another reason to not ride around here after dark if possible.

Now I understand how Texas can get a B- ASCE rating on bridges with a D rating on roads. Why build a road that's impassible when it rains? :brow

henzilla · Feb 16, 2015

A lot of these roads were ranch roads with not much heavy traffic. Through the years they were assimilated into the control of counties and state. There are a lot of dry creeks that only flow after a rain event which wouldn't need a bridge as the creek recedes quickly. Some have culverts, most do not.
Urban sprawl is bringing folks out here and they expect curb lined city streets ...and the mindless driving they were used to. Seeing the daily roadkill and car bits makes one wonder how many folks drove away, how many called 911.

The crossings on the State roads may be on a long list of projects, but only get attention when someone goes around a barricade and get washed downstream. The locals know to avoid them and stay off the roads at night. A few are open range as well, so large black cows often come out to the road at night as evidenced by the cow patties the next morning.

Before I moved out here, I regularly passed thru on way to pick up my kids and on occasion had to turn around due to several feet of water over a state road. There now is a bridge about 15 foot higher than the old low water crossing over the Blanco River.

Bud · Feb 16, 2015

Low water crossings are common in the Ozarks

It is appropriate for the area with low traffic and very high costs to build even a small bridge. With proper signage, there is adequate time to slow down or stop and assess the situation.

Makes a lot of economic sense in states with a lot of roads and limited resources.

And another reason to be cautious if you choose to ride at night.

BCKRider · Feb 20, 2015

PGlaves said:
Believe me, I have ridden more than my share at night. We used to go to 10, or 12, or up to 15 local rallies a year, ranging from 80 to 650 miles from home. For most we left Friday afternoon and arrived near midnight - in Missouri, Eastern Oklahoma, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona, Indiana, Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota etc. starting at home in Kansas. I have finished two Iron Butt Rallies and done a 49 state 10 day ride. Night riding: I have done it. I can do it. I prefer not to. And question the wisdom in deer infested country unless it is necessary.

Paul, when you were doing a lot of night riding (which I'm guessing was a decade or more in the past) you had two things on your side. First, there were one hell of a lot fewer deer. Hard to find anyplace in the US or Canada where there is not now a sizeable population of deer - though some areas are much worse than others. Remember when it was almost unheard of to see a deer during daylight hours and pretty uncommon even at night? Daylight crashes or near misses are now common. There are areas in eastern British Columbia (Cranbrook is the town my friend lived in) where virtually everybody had hit a deer (or an elk) at night. I rode these roads many times and never saw the animals - but I was riding in daylight - and no forest cover close to the roads.

The second consideration is that night vision decreases as we age. You are 70, I'm 68. Our eyes are slower to recover from oncoming headlights and probably not as good even without the problem of headlight glare to see as well as we did 10 or 20 years ago, even if our corrected vision is 20/20. I really don't like driving at night, and riding at night is no longer an option for me.

Never have driven or ridden across a flooded road, but where that is a possibility, certainly another good reason to not ride at night.

Rather doubt this info will ever reach the Iron Butt riders, or probably anybody but the senior citizens who read these threads.

pglaves · Feb 20, 2015

BCKRider said:
Paul, when you were doing a lot of night riding (which I'm guessing was a decade or more in the past) you had two things on your side. First, there were one hell of a lot fewer deer. Hard to find anyplace in the US or Canada where there is not now a sizeable population of deer - though some areas are much worse than others. Remember when it was almost unheard of to see a deer during daylight hours and pretty uncommon even at night? Daylight crashes or near misses are now common. There are areas in eastern British Columbia (Cranbrook is the town my friend lived in) where virtually everybody had hit a deer (or an elk) at night. I rode these roads many times and never saw the animals - but I was riding in daylight - and no forest cover close to the roads.

The second consideration is that night vision decreases as we age. You are 70, I'm 68. Our eyes are slower to recover from oncoming headlights and probably not as good even without the problem of headlight glare to see as well as we did 10 or 20 years ago, even if our corrected vision is 20/20. I really don't like driving at night, and riding at night is no longer an option for me.

Never have driven or ridden across a flooded road, but where that is a possibility, certainly another good reason to not ride at night.

Rather doubt this info will ever reach the Iron Butt riders, or probably anybody but the senior citizens who read these threads.

I agree. I am well aware that night vision degrades with age. So are most Iron Butt Riders. I frequently read of somebody planning a coast-to-coast (Jacksonville to San Diego) ride, scheming and conniving to go through the most deer infested area (which happens to be in West Texas) during daylight hours. Also, former Surgeon General of the Navy Don Arthur has written considerably about such things as fatigue, night vision, etc. specifically as it relates to long distance riding. Don once did a U.S. Four Corners ride in a bit over 4 days and is not a reckless person.

pauleknight · Feb 20, 2015

So a question.

I was unfortunate last year when riding thru Idaho and the Boise National Forest to hit a dirt road as I was trying to get to Chaillas ID.

I had to reroute (see image) and was on the road LATE after dark. AND of course a light rain started right after the sun went down

I tried keeping up with a few pickups that were ahead of me but they were going way to fast on a road that had NO street lights too late at night after a 14+ hour day saddle.

Beside keeping up with the pickups in front of me, I decided to ride slow, beep my horn, flash my brights, and fog lights as constantly as I could.

I made it through obviously but not after a two hours of very careful riding. I saw deer on the side of the road, in the grass and on the shoulder and in the road. I rode slow and steady and took my time, beeping and flashing the whole time...

Was I wise in beeping and flashing or what would the recommendation be?

You ride at night a lot? Give much thought to deer strikes?

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