Thoughts on BMW

This is a link to an independent BMW service shop. I've never been there, never met the owner and do not have a recommendation to make concerning the shop or its services. The owner does, however, make some strongly felt observations about BMW on the home page of the business website. I do not have the background knowledge to make a judgement about the historical observations about different BMW models and their issues, but I thought his observations in general were thought provoking. I also think that comments about the veracity of the owners observations by the more knowledgable and experienced members on this site will also be interesting.

http://www.affordablebeemerservices.com/bmwthoughts/

I agree with many of Chris' criticisms about BMW's QC issues and design choices. He may well be correct about the much-bigger car side's bean counters pushing the bike side into unwarranted and false economies.

Still, I'm struck by the volume - he reads loud. His isn't a balanced presentation about BMW, as there's no mention of anything interesting or appealing about BMWs. I don't ride 'em because of their reputation, or because of their dependability or repairability ('tho I did in the past), but because I continue to like how they feel.

Other vastly-experienced BMW mechanics whom I've met, or corresponded with, or read, present in a calmer and more balanced manner, demonstrating they know why we ride these bikes. I'm much more comfortable with those folks, and have more confidence in them.

Is this the same "Chris" that post a ton of stuff on Youtube?

I've never watched his videos, but I used to do business with Chris and he was a good guy and, like the name says, affordable.

dbrick said:

I agree with many of Chris' criticisms about BMW's QC issues and design choices. He may well be correct about the much-bigger car side's bean counters pushing the bike side into unwarranted and false economies.

Still, I'm struck by the volume - he reads loud. His isn't a balanced presentation about BMW, as there's no mention of anything interesting or appealing about BMWs. I don't ride 'em because of their reputation, or because of their dependability or repairability ('tho I did in the past), but because I continue to like how they feel.

Other vastly-experienced BMW mechanics whom I've met, or corresponded with, or read, present in a calmer and more balanced manner, demonstrating they know why we ride these bikes. I'm much more comfortable with those folks, and have more confidence in them.

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I'm in the same mindset as Dave is here. I'm reading some things I don't think are exactly on the level. For example, his extreme comments regarding the FD photo he shows that burnt. I'm fine with him posting that photo, but it would be a little more honest of him to have posted the actual context regarding that photo. This is absolutely not a typical FD failure - nor was the rider just bumming down the highway oblivious to a problem in his rear end.

My opinion is, he makes some reasonable conclusions that are not exactly in BMW's favor when it comes to QC - We all know that. However, the value in what he says is going to depend on the readers ability to pick and chose between accurate information and BS blather.

I also take note that he doesn't work on machines newer than 2004. I appreciate they may not be in his field of expertise - but I also note that the motorcycles he is most critical of, are those not in his field of expertise.

Does this mean that if I agree with what the OP has to say, that I am finding fault with my decision making as far as my conspicuous consumerism decisions???? Form follows function design and engineering is what made the BMW motorcycle marque so distinguished and honored among those who value reliability over what is fashionable, priced above what the masses can afford, and conforms to "elite" status.

It is amusing that all agree with what the OP has to say about quality and how the car side is driving design and profitability; but find fault with the OP and question his credibility. Sitting back and watching I find that the same old formula of bashing the large truth to the advantage of those in the "know" continues in not only the "club" but the vehicle that drives this organization.................God bless......Dennis

DennisDarrow said:

Sitting back and watching I find that the same old formula of bashing the large truth to the advantage of those in the "know" continues in not only the "club" but the vehicle that drives this organization.....Dennis

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What is amusing Dennis is that you choose to be a part of, and participate in, a group for which you evidently have such low regard. You are in danger of being judged by the company you keep. Are your occassional derogatory references to the those "in the know" or the "elitists" because you truely hold members of this imaginary Star Chamber like group in low regard, or because you never got an invitation? Sanctimony wears thin very quickly.

I agree that BMW is selling me stuff I don't want or need. I don't need anti-lock brakes, on-board computer, cruise control, ESA, traction control, CanBus electrics, or anything that I cannot repair (I said repair, not replace). I currently own a 2011 R1200 GS with 54,000 trouble free miles so far.......This will be the last BMW I will ever purchase unless they come out with a model that resembles the new KLR. Simple, inexpensive, and does just what I want a bike to do. I ride low and slow on backroads enjoying the views and people I meet on the road. I've learned to put the smart phone away, mostly use a map (I do have an inexpensive GPS), taken the SENA out of my helmet, and don't care about anything anymore that pulls my attention from enjoying what I ride a motorbike for. I previously owned a 1990 R100 GSPD and kick myself everytime I remember selling it. I went through a stage riding Hondas (VTR1000, RC30) Ducati's (2012 748 and 2010 1198 Corse) after the GSPD. I came back to BMW in July of 2011 with a new GS. It has been a great ride so far......But if it starts to display signs of built in obsolescence then it will be gone and replaced with a KLR or something similar. I don't care about 125 horsepower and the like. I know BMW can make a bike that meets EPA requirements with enough power without all the electrons flowing. Geez I know I sound like an old fart but please let me enjoy riding again.

Cheers, Tim

akbeemer said:

What is amusing Dennis is that you choose to be a part of, and participate in, a group for which you evidently have such low regard. You are in danger of being judged by the company you keep. Are your occassional derogatory references to the those "in the know" or the "elitists" because you truely hold members of this imaginary Star Chamber like group in low regard, or because you never got an invitation? Sanctimony wears thin very quickly.

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Way off base there Kevin. YOUR take on what I may be saying can and obviously is, twisted to how YOU want to read it. Not my problem and surely not to inflame nor flame. Just noting on how things change as do those who consume them. This club, society, and the design and manufacture of consumer goods is just a reflection on changing times and values. Taking this stuff on a personal basis is NOT a finger pointed at YOU. Sorry if it seems to have hit a sensitive place in yours or other's psyche.............

But, truly do wonder WHAT has happened to our beloved Marque. ONCE, one KNEW one could head out, travel X distance and KNOW that the least of your problems was going to be the machine you had chosen to take you there. There was no hesitation to head out to the wilds of back country Colorado, Utah, Mexico, N. Africa, or wherever. Yes, you realized that many thought your machine looked old fashioned and out of date. Most anything was faster in the curves or straights. That was NOT the point nor concern..........Those days as well as the folks who went that route are pretty much over. NOW?????............Yes, if one reads..READS what the OP is saying and look at the information he forwards, one is left thinking and wondering the WHY and HOW of what people are thinking and using the money to buy.

So........yes, it is disappointing in the fact that not only the machines that fostered the knowledge that one could head out to parts unknown and get back in one piece; but pretty much that mindset or the values of those folks who lived those times. They have pretty much vanished and it truly is a shame. So, yes, to reflect upon those times and now; obviously causes some to question values.......OBVIOUSLY to NOT be part of WHAT is NOW brings a challenge to some that look in the mirror and do NOT see what they want too..........God bless........Dennis

I am going to hypothesize here that BMW just might be learning something about innovation for innovation's sake. The debacle which is the "do not ride" and "do not sell" the new RT bikes coupled with the we "might have a fix by September", etc ought to be instructive.

Because the suspension system is so complex there is no immediate fix and BMW has had to scramble with deals to keep folks less than totally unhappy. I have not followed the details - our newest bike is a 2007.

I hope BMW will conclude that for some things at least, simple is better. I do like lots of new technology. Fuel injection and ABS come to mind. Dynamic computer linked front and rear suspension on a street bike seems a lot like over kill.

One more comment before I get off the soapbox. I would suggest folks closely look at the timing of BMW's QC issues compared to the timing of the unification of East and West Germanies, and the dramatically changing German labor force. Also consider the employment requirements imposed during unification and you might find a quality control bad guy bigger than "the car guys". If ever a BMW motorcycle was designed by the car guys it was the original classic K bikes - K100 and K75, and they didn't turn out too bad now, did they.

PGlaves said:

I would suggest folks closely look at the timing of BMW's QC issues compared to the timing of the unification of East and West Germanies, and the dramatically changing German labor force. Also consider the employment requirements imposed during unification and you might find a quality control bad guy bigger than "the car guys".

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I suggested in an earlier thread that reunification was playing a role in BMW's OC issues. It was taken as humor, but I know the chaos that reunification brought to Germany. I've lived there for six years and have friends who still do. There was a general struggle to keep excellence from devolving into mediocrity in many aspects of German life.

brewmeister said:

The newer bikes do make maintenance much more difficult for a ordinary garage weekend mechanic that I admit to.

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Normal scheduled maintenance is no harder on a modern bike compared to an airhead. Easier, actually, as there is less to do and it is done less often. If there is a down side it is that some may neglect a good inspection of the state of the bike. The real difference between the airhead and the current bikes is that you are comfortable with the airhead and the issues that are common to that series. If you wanted to you could get just as comfortable with the new bikes. You don't want to. That's fine.

I like working on my '13 as well as I like working on the '66. The '66 needs maintenance 5 times more often than the '13. That may be why I ride the '13 5 times as much. Both bikes provided me an excuse to buy new tools.

Oh, if only the past would return. Not sure I understand the problems with newer BMW's. I began riding BMW's in 2001 at the age of 65. I've had 13 of them now and have ridden over 325k miles of which 99% was solo and not on the interstate highways. Included are 49 states and 19 countries in Europe.
I do all my own service. I have had 1 leaky rear shock on my '09 12 GS. Were the old ones really that much better or are some of you youngsters just living in the past?

PGlaves said:

I would suggest folks closely look at the timing of BMW's QC issues compared to the timing of the unification of East and West Germanies, and the dramatically changing German labor force. Also consider the employment requirements imposed during unification and you might find a quality control bad guy bigger than "the car guys". If ever a BMW motorcycle was designed by the car guys it was the original classic K bikes - K100 and K75, and they didn't turn out too bad now, did they.

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If the totality of the BMW product was produced at the Spandau factory, I would agree with you. However, many/most of the components are sourced from vendors worldwide. From that perspective, it's hard to draw a strong correlation between unification and the QC issues. IMHO, the QC issues arise from a management decision to maximize profit by farkle growth.

I started riding BMW's in 82. I still have all three of the BMW's that I have owned which I bought new. I can tell you most of the repairs that were done on them. The 82 R100RT had three problems that were common for that year. My bike had all three of the problems. I stripped a clutch spline somewhere between 5-6 k miles, had an alternator rotor fail, and had a shifter spring break. The clutch spline was suppose to have been a bad batch of shafts, the alternator rotor was also a bad batch, and the shifter spring was upgraded to a heavier spring. The bike now has over 109K on it and none of those problems have ever repeated. All of these happened within the first 50k miles under warranty. The 82's were the first to have 36 month unlimited mileage warranties if I remember correctly. My 91 K100LT has been my most reliable. It stripped a driveshaft spline at around 50k. This was due to a lack of maintenance. I was unaware that it was suppose to be lubed and was not properly informed by Bob's BMW when I took it in for maintenance about such. I was having Bob's due my maintenance for me at that time. I do all my maintenance and most repairs myself now. My 04 R1150RT with 146k miles has only been to the dealer at 600 mile and 18k miles. It has had two stick coil failures, don't remember mileage. It had its first rear drive failure at 80k. I removed the drive myself and took it to Bob's. Their rebuild job lasted about 5k and it failed again. That rebuilt drive failed again at 120k.

From my point of view the newer (up to 04) BMW's haven't been all that much more unreliable. I just wish I could trust the rear drive more on my 04.

marchyman said:

Normal scheduled maintenance is no harder on a modern bike compared to an airhead. Easier, actually, as there is less to do and it is done less often. If there is a down side it is that some may neglect a good inspection of the state of the bike. The real difference between the airhead and the current bikes is that you are comfortable with the airhead and the issues that are common to that series. If you wanted to you could get just as comfortable with the new bikes. You don't want to. That's fine.

I like working on my '13 as well as I like working on the '66. The '66 needs maintenance 5 times more often than the '13. That may be why I ride the '13 5 times as much. Both bikes provided me an excuse to buy new tools.

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Well said. Great perspective regarding old and new.

DennisDarrow said:

Does this mean that if I agree with what the OP has to say, that I am finding fault with my decision making as far as my conspicuous consumerism decisions???? Form follows function design and engineering is what made the BMW motorcycle marque so distinguished and honored among those who value reliability over what is fashionable, priced above what the masses can afford, and conforms to "elite" status.

It is amusing that all agree with what the OP has to say about quality and how the car side is driving design and profitability; but find fault with the OP and question his credibility. Sitting back and watching I find that the same old formula of bashing the large truth to the advantage of those in the "know" continues in not only the "club" but the vehicle that drives this organization.................God bless......Dennis

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Tread carefully Dennis - you're tilting at a pretty big windmill here.

The MOA is a unique and overall friendly organization - you can easily get that 'warm and fuzzy' feeling by attending our national rallies, the booth at the IMS or some of the other larger regional events. I encourage you to do so.

But the Forum is a much different entity. While no member is forced to belong (less than 6% do) and a person can exit at will, many of us linger nevertheless in order to temper the sometimes runaway enthusiasm for the marque, no matter what its sins.

But individuals like Chris (referenced in the OP) and others who in any way threaten the sanctity of BMW are neither warmly nor objectively received by the 'collective.' Resistance is futile.

PGlaves said:

I am going to hypothesize here that BMW just might be learning something about innovation for innovation's sake. The debacle which is the "do not ride" and "do not sell" the new RT bikes coupled with the we "might have a fix by September", etc ought to be instructive.

Because the suspension system is so complex there is no immediate fix and BMW has had to scramble with deals to keep folks less than totally unhappy. I have not followed the details - our newest bike is a 2007.

I hope BMW will conclude that for some things at least, simple is better. I do like lots of new technology. Fuel injection and ABS come to mind. Dynamic computer linked front and rear suspension on a street bike seems a lot like over kill.

One more comment before I get off the soapbox. I would suggest folks closely look at the timing of BMW's QC issues compared to the timing of the unification of East and West Germanies, and the dramatically changing German labor force. Also consider the employment requirements imposed during unification and you might find a quality control bad guy bigger than "the car guys". If ever a BMW motorcycle was designed by the car guys it was the original classic K bikes - K100 and K75, and they didn't turn out too bad now, did they.

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I read Chris's BMW rant & generally agree with most of it but not all as well detailed by others. Sounds like stuff a greasy guy would say.
As to PG's comments on labor and after reading a bit (just now) about German labor after reunification I see that one of the major changes was that women , who had formerly been a large % of the workers, had left the workforce.
It's a women thing! BMW's were better when the girls made them?
As to "Dennis and his sanctimonious behavior", I'm still in recovery mode from being called out over a "who makes the best gas can" discussion...

Something I genuinely appreciate about BMW's is many of the other folks that ride them.

As evidenced by this thread, there are a lot of very knowledgeable, sensible folks that own these bikes. Most issues are well known, no matter the year, and I have never experienced a lack of information or helpful people wiling to help out. The bikes will never be perfect, and most of us probably have an idea of what we think the perfect bike is and wish that BMW would produce it.

From airheads to my most modern BMW (which is a hexhead) I have never lacked information or helpful people to help resolve issues. Snowbum spent countless hours via email helping me sort out some frustrating airhead electrical problems. Other than warranty work I don't really expect much from BMW. Like most consumers I try to do my research and make an informed decision. I don't knock others for their decisions or reasoning.

To me the biggest intangible that isn't written about in road tests and doesn't appear on spec sheets is the amazing group of other BMW riders. My ownership experience has been greatly enhanced by a large number of great folks that freely share knowledge and advice.

It's too bad what has transpired with the 2014 R1200RTW. It does illustrate that making a product more complex with the ESA suspension gizmo may not make for a better product. It violates the KISS principle. As others have mentioned, many of us could and would do just fine without fancy ESA systems. But the new RT illustrates another point, that BMW has grudgingly acknowledged that having to pull a bike completely apart to do spline lubes is a PITA for the consumer, it raises maintenance costs, and that splines are a vulnerability that can result in very costly repairs. Some argue that a dry clutch keeps the oil cleaner, but I think BMW has moved towards keeping maintenance costs down and improved reliability by switching to the industry standard, the wet clutch.

Harry