Dead R1100RS - Troubleshooting Tips?

23217 said:

This is pretty much what most of us expected. Now, you have to make a decision of what you are going to replace...

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Mr. 23217,

First of all, thank you for doing so much leg-work on my behalf regarding parts & pricing! Truly above and beyond!

Now, what am I going to replace? Yikes! Really good question! I do intend to keep the bike, so do I just replace everything "just because"? I guess if the bike had a zillion miles on it, the decision would be more clear. But 54k doesn't seem like high mileage, right? So, I've resigned myself to pulling off both heads and sending them to someone (perhaps Anton) and trusting their discretion on what needs to be done.

Rings? Having never done it, it seems a bit daunting. But after taking my RT transmission apart, I suppose I'm up for anything.

23217 said:

I would see if the carbon canister is still connected...

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Yes, it is... I've performed a canisterectomy on my RT and will do the same with the RS... (after she's doctored up...)

23217 said:

The next issue you need to address is the cam chain tensioner....

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Thanks for bringing this to my attention. When I first heard of the upgraded tensioner, it just sounded like a nice thing to do to quiet a bit of rattle at start-up. But the more I read up on it, it sounds like it can become pretty catastrophic! I looked at my GS and RS and they both have the original 17mm bolt head (as opposed to the upgrade 15mm). Rubber Chicken Racing makes an Oilhead kit, and I bought two of them just last week! Thanks!

The real question is where did the excess carbon come from. If you can determine the reason for the carbon build up, you can make a better decision on the rings. If you can't, then you should probably replace the rings. You don't want to have the problem occur again. Replacing the rings isn't very hard. You would need to hone the cylinders. Again, not that hard.

Anton does good work, so he would be a good choice.

As for the canister, you don't have to remove it. Just remove the hose that flows into the engine. The idea is that the gas is suppose to evaporate and flow into the engine. In theory it is a good idea, but if something goes wrong it can cause a lot of problems. The downside to removing the canister is that the gas vapor can make your garage smell if it is really hot. If too much gas gets into the canister, the carbon and gas will flow into the engine. I have also seen people put a filter on the hose (before it flows into the throttle bodies. The filter is there to catch any carbon that might flow out of the canister. I don't know how well the filter works, since I haven't tried it. You might also want to check the vent tube in the tank for a hole. I also found that water from rain gets under the cap and drains into the canister. Make sure the gasket around the gas cap is good and has not fallen off. If you are not sure, open the gas cap after it has rained, and see if there is any water near the channel for the drain.

bwanajames said:

Mr. 23217,

First of all, thank you for doing so much leg-work on my behalf regarding parts & pricing! Truly above and beyond!

Now, what am I going to replace? Yikes! Really good question! I do intend to keep the bike, so do I just replace everything "just because"? I guess if the bike had a zillion miles on it, the decision would be more clear. But 54k doesn't seem like high mileage, right? So, I've resigned myself to pulling off both heads and sending them to someone (perhaps Anton) and trusting their discretion on what needs to be done.

Rings? Having never done it, it seems a bit daunting. But after taking my RT transmission apart, I suppose I'm up for anything.



Yes, it is... I've performed a canisterectomy on my RT and will do the same with the RS... (after she's doctored up...)



Thanks for bringing this to my attention. When I first heard of the upgraded tensioner, it just sounded like a nice thing to do to quiet a bit of rattle at start-up. But the more I read up on it, it sounds like it can become pretty catastrophic! I looked at my GS and RS and they both have the original 17mm bolt head (as opposed to the upgrade 15mm). Rubber Chicken Racing makes an Oilhead kit, and I bought two of them just last week! Thanks!

View attachment 45122

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Prices have come down at the dealer for this part. I just checked the fiche and the left and right side oilhead tensioner replacements are both under $30 at MaxBMW now so paying $83 for one is awfully expensive.

Prices have come down at the dealer for this part. I just checked the fiche and the left and right side oilhead tensioner replacements are both under $30 at MaxBMW now so paying $83 for one is awfully expensive

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That's odd...because the listing of prices I had above came from MaxBMW. So, I just checked the prices again, and they are still the same:

10 11 31 7 688 629 CYLINDER F CHAIN TENSIONER, LEFT 0.15 1 $28.93
15 11 31 7 656 922 PISTON LEFT 0.04 1 $57.70
12 07 11 9 963 308 GASKET RING - A18X22-CU 1 $0.87

Off the thread again..............

The cam chain tensioner didn't cause the burnt valve.

Somewhere I read that the heads are being rebuilt using the original valve stem seals??? Good luck with that.

C'mon, it's a three cut seat and a single cut face. As long as you have margin, new stem seals, any machine shop that knows what they are doing can provide a decent product.

As to the problem, carbon, I think when I go to the seminar on NA fuel quality in three weeks, I will get a big confirmation that we have crappy fuel and we can thank the granola munchers for that.

happy wanderer said:

Prices have come down at the dealer for this part. I just checked the fiche and the left and right side oilhead tensioner replacements are both under $30 at MaxBMW now so paying $83 for one is awfully expensive.

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Ya need this piece too: 11 31 7 656 922 PISTON LEFT @ $57.70

Fuel history

Bwanajames:

Great thread! Sorry for your issues, but it's been a good education for the rest of us.

Figuring out the source of the carbon buildup could be beneficial to the rest of us, too. Just out of curiosity, can you shed any light on your fuel usage history.....i.e. brand and grade that you use most of the time? Do you normally use a fuel with Techron blend? Do you run a Techron (or similar) treatment on occasion just to blow out the carbon?

Thanks,

The motors that consume oil on the high end of the spec. have a higher carbon buildup.
Oilheads use oil, some a lot more than others.

GSAddict said:

Ya need this piece too: 11 31 7 656 922 PISTON LEFT @ $57.70

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Well that would explain it! I was just looking at the housing and forgot about the piston inside. So together just over $80. I must be getting senile. Could have sworn when I changed mine out a couple years ago it was one piece for the new one.

The motors that consume oil on the high end of the spec. have a higher carbon buildup.
Oilheads use oil, some a lot more than others.

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The BMW manual considers (page 11.13) that 1.41pints per 500 miles as the limit. What level of oil consumption would concern you for carbon build on a machine that is broken-in?

23217 said:

The BMW manual considers (page 11.13) that 1.41pints per 500 miles as the limit. What level of oil consumption would concern you for carbon build on a machine that is broken-in?

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Up here we do in metric. BMW says 1L per 1000km which is ridiculous. You prolly be able do a bank job with that kind of smokescreen
Anything over 250ml per 1000km highway IMO is too much.
Short hops and warmup cycles, city traffic will increase oil use.
Mine goes as low as 110ml per 1000 highway.
YRMV

Note to mention: New oil burns off less than older oil that is getting close to oil change time.

GSAddict said:

Up here we do in metric. BMW says 1L per 1000km which is ridiculous. You prolly be able do a bank job with that kind of smokescreen
Anything over 250ml per 1000km highway IMO is too much.
Short hops and warmup cycles, city traffic will increase oil use.
Mine goes as low as 110ml per 1000 highway.
YRMV

Note to mention: New oil burns off less than older oil that is getting close to oil change time.

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1l/1000KM is almost a universal standard for oil consumption by a great many manufacturers in Canada. I agree, that is a bit on the much side but not bank job worthy, more mosquito fogging worthy.

The more I read about fuel quality, the less I am convinced carbon build up is caused by lubricating oil volatility. Keep in mind, I am fully entrenched in diesel emissions controls right now and we have big problems and oil burning isn't the cause.

When I get some hard data on fuel in a few weeks, I will pass it on and sound way smarter than I really am.

GSAddict said:

Anything over 250ml per 1000km highway IMO is too much.
Short hops and warmup cycles, city traffic will increase oil use.
Mine goes as low as 110ml per 1000 highway.
YRMV

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I just completed a 4,032 km trip which included 50/50 highway and back roads with the rpm in the 3500-4500 range (usually). Used about 400cc of oil. Bike now has 69k km on it and its running the best its ever run.

One Sword Sharpens Another...

piperjim said:

Bwanajames:

Great thread! Sorry for your issues, but it's been a good education for the rest of us.

Figuring out the source of the carbon buildup could be beneficial to the rest of us, too. Just out of curiosity, can you shed any light on your fuel usage history.....i.e. brand and grade that you use most of the time? Do you normally use a fuel with Techron blend? Do you run a Techron (or similar) treatment on occasion just to blow out the carbon?

Thanks,

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Piperjim,
No apologies necessary! This dark cloud of mechanical mishap can have a silver lining if new concepts come to light. Speaking of learning something... Some of you may be familiar with Chris Harris of Affordable Beemer Services in New Hampshire. He's created a number of very helpful Youtube videos, so I asked him who he trusted with reconditioning heads. Below is his response, which is interesting from several angles:

Hi Jim,

Consider having the fuel injectors serviced. The chipped valve likely due to a lean condition. I would send the heads to Peter Bombar: http://www.bombarsbeemers.com/Pages/default.aspx

Good luck.

Regards,

Chris R. Harris
Team Monkey Productions LLC

#1: Ok, first Peter Bombar. On my flight back from North Carolina this afternoon, by sheer coincidence I just happened to have the May 2014 issue on BMW Owners News with me and noticed the Dealer Profile section - highlighting none other than... Peter Bombar! Of particular interest was the statement: "...and a modern machine shop that is the only BMW independent service shop which includes a Serdi 1.1 seat and guide machine, allowing us to repair and rebuild cylinder heads with racing standard precision."

Hmm... Sounds like the right guy, huh? So, now that I'm back from my travels, I'll box up the heads and shoot them off to Mr. Bombar.

#2: Lean condition? The reports I've read so far, all have a common theme: at the time of break-down, all were engaged in a "hold-on-to-your-hat" high rpm run. In my Shade Tree imagination, I could visualize the mechanical act of higher than normal piston cycling triggering the shedding of carbon bits which would - on their way out - become wedged under an exhaust valve and shear a chunk from it. An instantaneous act if you will.
But the lean condition seems like erosion that would take place over time. Which would mean a gradual loss of valve material followed by a slow but steady reduction of sealing/compression/power. But mine, and everybody else I've read about, had their bike running great one minute and dead the next.

Hmm... Just trying to make sense of the "lean condition" suggestion...

Fuel Usage History: During my ownership, (39k - 54k) I've always run premium. But when it comes to brand, my fill-ups have largely been based on convenience - though I do try to avoid the Brand-X El Cheapo stations. Here lately, I've been making a point to fuel-up at Shell, as I've been told (right or wrong) that they infuse their mix with less ethanol than the competition.

Techron Additives? Historically, I've not used additives to limit carbon build-up. But recent events are rapidly changing my opinion on that strategy.

It never hurts to have the injectors cleaned and tested. However, the lean condition comment may or may not be correct. Exhaust temperature reaches a peak at an AFR of lambda=1 (14.7:1 for gasoline), leaner than this and the exhaust gas gets cooler. 14.7:1 is the ratio your bike runs most of the time but is the average of the two cylinders. If one injector isn't working so well, that cylinder may be leaner. In carbureted days, that meant the mixture leaned from 13.2:1 toward 14.7:1, the exhaust gas got hotter. Today, with the engine normally running at 14.7:1 a leaner cylinder has a cooler exhaust gas as the cylinder leans out.

In town, lots of starts, I use some oil. probably close to 1/2 liter per 1000 miles. Take a trip, and it goes down a couple of OZ the first day, as condensation and evaporated fuel burn off. Then none. Start the trip with new oil, and no consumption. On a 3K trip I used no oil. 95 K.

Before you can start to determine the root cause or causes of your excessive carbon build up, we would need to know if there was abnormal carbon build up in one cylinder or both cylinders?

You can get carbon build up from oil or from incomplete combustion. But, in most cases it comes from oil. I am not buying that an improperly operating fuel injector as the most probable cause of the broken exhaust valve. There are millions of vehicles running down the road with clogged or damaged injectors. In those cases it usually make the engine run rough, and they don't end up with broken exhaust valves. That is not to say that you don't have a partially clogged or damaged injector. I usually add fuel injector cleaner approximately every 4-5k miles upon refueling.

Problems with incomplete combustion usually come from improper fuel introduction to the engine or from the spark plug. Engines like the ignition of the fuel to burn slowly. When it burns slowly, in burns more completely. And, thus provides more power and efficiency. It is also important to understand that internal combustion engines burn only about 30% of the fuel. this can vary by a little. 40% is about the max. When you hear your engine pinging, the fuel is exploding and not burning properly. This is undesirable and can cause some carbon build up. But, more likely it ends up burning the rest of the fuel in the headers. Higher octane fuel reduced the ability of the gas to burn, and this is better for engines. This is why you usually get better mileage with premium grade gasoline. Reduction of combustion can also come from leaking head gaskets, improperly operating spark plugs, or coils. The spark plug could be damaged, but you can't see it. Or the gap is set wrong. Also, Oilheads seems to have the gap widen over time, so resetting them might be warranted. I find that my gap goes from 0.032 to 0.040 over 12k miles. If you are using Iridium spark plugs (like the Autolite XP3923) then it is important to regap them. You can also have combustion problems with improperly operating injectors. You want the fuel to be broken into the smallest size as possible. the smaller the better. Improperly operating injectors would cause limited combustion, but the rest would burn in the headers. While poor fuel combustion can contribute to carbon build up, I don't think that is your problem.

Carbon Build Up

This is an interesting thread and useful help for the original "postie" towards repairing the valve train damage incountered.
I'm going to go out on a limb and mention my favourite solution towards any carbon build up potential (regardless of whether you're burning a bit too much oil, sporting a poor tune, or have really bad fuel etc. & of course known mechanical issues should be addressed)
"Water Injection"
Although many as myself have added it to enhance and protect from the wonders of forced induction, it also works some pretty good magic on a NA engine.
When utilized sparingly during loaded throttle states then on a NA engine, on top of cleansing of carbon, you can also run cheaper fuel, and advance ignition timing, and run leaner fuel ratios. Still, seems to be regarded like "the emporers new clothes" at times and most likely snake oil.
Don't take my word for it, there are some really good reads on the net (including Sir Harry Ricardo).

R100RTurbo said:

This is an interesting thread and useful help for the original "postie" towards repairing the valve train damage incountered.
I'm going to go out on a limb and mention my favourite solution towards any carbon build up potential (regardless of whether you're burning a bit too much oil, sporting a poor tune, or have really bad fuel etc. & of course known mechanical issues should be addressed)
"Water Injection"
Although many as myself have added it to enhance and protect from the wonders of forced induction, it also works some pretty good magic on a NA engine.
When utilized sparingly during loaded throttle states then on a NA engine, on top of cleansing of carbon, you can also run cheaper fuel, and advance ignition timing, and run leaner fuel ratios. Still, seems to be regarded like "the emporers new clothes" at times and most likely snake oil.
Don't take my word for it, there are some really good reads on the net (including Sir Harry Ricardo).

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Ever seen the piston on the leaking head gasket (coolant) on a wc engine? Clean as new!
Water injection has been used for many years

Could it be the Gas?

Only Master Yoda has even alluded to this, so I'll just throw it out in the open:

Might the valve damage have been caused by too much alcohol in the gas?