1992 K75S -- wont start after police tow. no green neutral TT nor gear indicator

98lee said:

Steering head lock is separate from ignition switch on K75.

Click to expand...

I guess I wasn't clear. I know from my Bricklet the steering lock is separate from the ignition switch, but a guy on the clock per tow may not know and doesn't care.

I've re-pode'd lots of stuff in my career. I try the flathead first and let the next guy figure out the mess I made. I actually try to break stuff so I can get to the ignition switch. A hammer works too.

If it was me, I'd be looking at any damage to the ignition lock, try the key a bunch of times and then spend some quality time making sure the ignition switch was not a problem.

Three months sitting in the cold..................I've seen many a good battery take a vacation over night and they aren't coming back.

just an update. still no luck on getting her started. battery is on charger now. i checked the steering lock and the ignition switches, both seem good/clean/smooth (ie. no screwdriver jammed in). I tried to get my head up under the fairing to look for disconnected wires but didn't see anything obvious.

on the bright side - i was slightly afraid to take out the toolbox/komputer holder because it was full of a disconnected alarm system and a big wad of wires, i didn't want to un-attach the wrong wire, but when i lifted the box out and saw that none of the wires were connected to anything, was a great relief, i pried the alarm box out (it was epoxy'd on there or something), and scrubbed out a decade of grease and grime from the box. the PO wasn't as meticulous as i am about dangling wires and stuff not working.

also, since i kinda doubt that the dead battery is the culprit (due to no green neutral light and no gear indicator) i have been scrounging around looking for an honest moto tow guy and an alternative to the bmw dealer (can i say that?) here in manhattan, think i might have found both. that which doesn't kill you etc.

wish i was able to partake of the first weekend of spring riding but i'm probably on the sidelines for this weekend.

Easy to find neutral, just try moving the bike and gently moving the shift lever.
OM

yeah i can tell the transmission is working, I can shift into neutral spin the back wheel, shift into gear feel in gear, pull in clutch easy spin again etc.

i'm just saying the no neutral tell tale and no gear indicator seems to point to a bad switch/electrical connection vs. just a low/dead battery. hoping i'm wrong tho.

The absent neutral light and the blank gear indicator have the same cause (most probably either the connector to the cluster, or the TGPI) but that cause doesn't rule out the battery.

If you follow power through the starting circuits on the K75 wiring diagram, it flows like this:

Battery -> Ignition switch -> Kill switch -> Fuse 1 -> Clutch switch & instrument cluster (i.e. neutral light) -> Start button -> Starter relay

So a no-crank condition is due to a fault somewhere on that path, excluding weird things that aren't likely happening here.

Edit: In other words, the absent neutral light and gear indicator do indicate a problem, but that problem is not sufficient to prevent you from starting. Something else along the pathway above has to be broken.

I note that this could all be as simple as Fuse 1 being blown or loose. The bike will run like that (without brake lights), but won't start. So if the fuse blew or came loose during the ride home, that would cause the observed failure.

Just had a chance to check the schematic.

Your problem is a blown fuse. The top one. 7.5 amp. Standard automotive fuse available anywhere (even 7-11).

The fuses are on the left side under the battery cover under a 1"x 3" clear (probably yellowed by now) plastic cover. Cover comes off by pinching the two sides together and pull.

Pulled that fuse on my bike and get the same symptoms you have. Hopefully whatever popped it has cleared.


Hopefully a cheap easy fix!

PS:
I wrote this almost an hour ago but then had to help the wife repot a plant and take out the garbage. By the time I hit send, James had beat me to it. Looks like you might be riding on the first day of spring after all!

you guys are amazing. looks like it was indeed the fuse.

haven't started it yet but after swapping out positions on two of the fuses, the green neutral light and the gear indicator are both back, and i briefly pressed starter it turns over. raining now but hopefully will get a break in a bit and i will start it up.

thank you for your help!!

Sorry it took so long, but I didn't get near my schematics until this afternoon.

You can thank us by having a nice ride this weekend!


Makes that MOA membership look pretty worthwhile, eh?

super glad to be part of the MOA.

this morning i went down and was so glad when the bike started right up.

unfortunately the fuse blew again after about 10 mins, roughly exactly the same time as it happened before.

so we figured out the what but not the why.

also this time i noticed that all the instruments dont work (i.e. speedo, tach, neutral light, gear indicator) guess it makes sense.

anwyay, a fellow moto buddy here at work has an extra fuse to get me home, but now i have to figure out what is making it short out after a few mins. at least i don't have to pay for a tow.

I'll go through the schematic when I get back to my shop in a couple hours to give you a list of the possible things that are shorting.

If you could post a picture of the loose wire you found, maybe that would help.

In the mean time, go get a bunch of the 7.5 amp fuses. You'll probably go through several during the troubleshooting process and you need to carry several spares of both sizes in your tool tray anyway.

The two most likely candidates are:

heated grips (if you have them). Could have got shorted out by how they tied down your bike or the torn wire (though should be 2 conductors inside the wire). Would only show up if heated grip switch is ON. If off, fuse would not blow.


More likely:

The alarm system! From your previous post, it sounds like it was not properly unplugged from the main wiring harness. If the wires were just cut or torn, the hot lead is still plugged into the harness and is probably grounding out. The plug is a 5 conductor plug, so if the alarm does not have a 5 conductor plug at the end of the wires, it is not correctly disconnected and is probably the problem.

Awaiting your observations.

mr fulton you are the internet moto whisperer!!

the short seems to be in the heated grips.

I made sure the switch was in off (middle) position this morning and I made it all the way to work with full instruments.

how can i look for the short in the grips?

First thing to do is post pictures of the loose wire you found by the front of the bike (or you can email them to me: just click on the blue 98lee at the upper left corner of any of my posts. One of the four choices that comes up will be send email).

Also, after you have gotten SEVERAL new fuses, while you're at home, try with grips on high to make sure the wire is still shorting out (might take some movement of the handlebars to get to the right spot for the wire to ground out). Then, after it blows, replace the fuse and try to put the bars in the same position with the grips off.

If it is indeed the grips, the fix will require removing the tank. A quick fix MIGHT be to find the offending broken wire and tape them up. It's real possible that the broken wire you found is really one of the TWO conductor wires that go to one of the grips. The quick fix would be to cut the outer black sheath back enough to expose the two (very small) insulated wires. Then cut each wire back to it's individual insulation, then tape each end so that the two wires do not short to each other. Then try again with the grips on high. If it doesn't blow, you will still have one grip that will work.

If it still blows, the wire end you taped will be the one that goes into the hanlde bars instead of the othe half that brings the power from under the tank. You will need to find that wire or do the job right and remove the tank.

Did you ever find the 5 conductor plug on the alarm wires?

Awaiting feedback. ( We'll get you there eventually!)

here's a pic of the 'offending' wire. it comes from under the gas tank, kind of on the left side. its silver strands wire, and it looks like it was attached somewhere due to how 'clean' the bare end looks.

(forgive the coat of dirt on my bike, haven't got her cleaned up yet since she got out of jail)

That wire looks pretty small and looks like a single conductor. I can't think of anything in that area that would match it. (alarm maybe) Try taking a razor knife and slitting it length wise to see if there is really two tiny wires inside. If there is, we need to know what color each wire's insulation is.

If it is indeed only one set of stranded wires inside the black insulation, we need to see if it is the source of the short (key and kill switch on, touch end of wire to fork triple clamps, see if it sparks or if the fuse blows.

Here are the wires for the heated grips that come out from under the tank. The one on the left comes from the switch on the dash and goes under the tank. The outside of the sheath is about 3/16".

The one on the right comes from each grip (there is one pair for each grip) and runs through the handle bars and out through a hole in the center of the bars and under the tank. One inner wire is black and the other is brown. The outside sheath is a bit less than 5/32". If the wire was ripped loose, it might have streched to around 1/8" before it broke.

This is a good one, I like these. Maybe others not so much.

We might be looking at two different diagrams but mine leads back to the ignition switch. However, as I read it, past the ignitions switch, heated grips or the phantom alarm system would be in the mix.

Looking at a heated grip diagram, it's an NO and grounds are past the heaters. If the switch is off, no circuit. If the switch is bad and you created circuit, one element shorted to ground, the fuse should go the nano-second the ignitions switch is on.

I'm going to throw a wild one out there: Do the brake lights work?

brake lights work, been checking often due to electrical situation.

curious tho to ask, i think i am running with blown fuse in the 4th position to no noticeable effect. what is that circuit?

fuses have been surprisingly harder to come by in manhattan, but i'm hope to make auto parts store in brooklyn this afternoon for a sackful. probly ride out to floyd bennet field afterwards for parking lot practice, anyone been out there? its fun.

will finally get to wash the bike and do some tests with fuses to blow, but i strongly think the problem is in the grips.

i'm confident the alarm component i removed wasn't connected anywhere, but i know there is a bunch of fantom wiring and 'hacky' work in the wiring with disconnecting the alarm. viz. the PO told me the reason the ABS light blinking due to removal of alarm system (which i also think is not true, he wasn't very honest or forthcoming) and the 'receiving end' of the wire bunch i took out is hanging out the right side of the frame under the fairing. (i'll post a pic later)

besides the alarm red herring, based on the pics you showed, i'm getting starting to think the idea that the tow had anything to do with it is also not valid. lets say the bike was not locked up at all (my bad) the easiest way to tow it is to just wheel it away. would they even hook it anywhere and if they did is there a way the hooking up could cause current problem?

regarding the grips, the last time i rode the bike it was a snowstorm. talk about teaching moment, holy **** it was one of the most visceral life lessons i've ever gotten. it was also the first time i ever dropped the bike. everything was slippery and as i mounted the bike, i lost her and she dropped onto her sidecase and right side grip. 1st lesson was that i was able to pick up the moto from the ground unassisted (thought i could but wasn't sure, the adrenaline was helpful). then i drove it to work and learned how 'fun' it is to drive a motorcycle in traffic in an active snowstorm with ice and snow on the ground. never again. i am confident the heated grips were working during this drive.

so, maybe dropping it is a factor. sorry for leaving that out it just wasn't fresh and an unpleasant memory

i don't think the grips have been working at all since i picked it up, but i haven't been on it for long enough time to be sure about the drive home, its possible they were working and the issue happened as i perceive it to have happened right when i pulled up to park. however now that i see the pattern, i think i can reconstruct it to this: when i first saw the moto at the tow pound, i know the green neutral light was working at this moment because it gave me confidence to press the starter, which i did and the bike started right up like a champ. probly the heated grips were 'on' at this moment and the fuse blew right away. when i returned to the bike after 1 hour paying up and doing paperwork, i was too nervous due to them yelling at me it was taking too long to put on my gloves and etc. so i might not have noticed no neutral light in my rush to start up and roll out, and since i'm 'new careful' driver and i don't need the speedo in city traffic, its possible i didn't notice the whole ride home. i have the blinky red abs light, which also makes it harder for me to notice the new red light on (esp when focused on traffic and fresh on the bike after month away)

regardless getting it running sans tow is a godsend. thank you for all the clues and tips. if i can't find something 'obvious' when i'm cleaning it up today, i will probably go on a waiting list for a mechanic i found, though i have a feeling electrical work like this is the most PITA kinda thing for them to get involved in somehow.

I had the same issue with my 93 K1100LT. In my case the resistance wires for the low heat circuit of the grips fried. It is under the tank on the LH side. Sure glad the fuse blew instead of melting all the other wires under the tank.
Jeff