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Thread: Stumped - r1150r won't start

  1. #46
    Registered User jeff.ferguson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71243 View Post
    A few years back, I put risers on my R1150 as well. Same thing No start. Double checked my work....I had unplugged the clutch wire @ the switch inside the plastic cover...and did-not-know it. Just standing there it looked fine, but pulled back the cover and it was obvious.... Plugged it back together....all was well.,,,

    Check that and everything involved in the riser install.
    This I can try.....except not sure what the clutch has to do with starting if the bike is in neutral.

  2. #47
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    From everything you say it would have to be the kill switch wiring. If the kill switch is OK you should get pump prime when you turn ignition on. Furthermore, you should get pump prime every time you turn the kill switch off and back on. Without starting the bike ignition on when you put it in first gear and back to neutral you should get pump prime.
    I even believe first gear (or any gear), clutch engaged, side stand up you should get pump prime. That is before even getting into the starter circuit. And since the starter doesn't run either that should be the only possible scenario.

    Put the wiring back together like it was before.
    If you take starter cover of (one bolt, 4mm alan I think, but you have outside jump post so two bolts, the other one is T30 i think) and jump terminal 50, without disconnecting it (little black wire) to main positive terminal big 13mm nut right next to it, your jump post is attached to it. (paperclip, tweezers, needle nose pliers, you should get crank (regardless of anything else so be careful, if the bike is in gear ...off it goes , make sure it is in neutral for this test). This would prove that your battery and stater are OK. This only as a confidence building exercise since I would bet heavily against being battery or starter (very heavily). Let me know when you are there, you don't even have to put that tank back on for this one.
    Keep us posted
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  3. #48
    Registered User jeff.ferguson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cele0001 View Post
    From everything you say it would have to be the kill switch wiring. If the kill switch is OK you should get pump prime when you turn ignition on. Furthermore, you should get pump prime every time you turn the kill switch off and back on. Without starting the bike ignition on when you put it in first gear and back to neutral you should get pump prime.
    I even believe first gear (or any gear), clutch engaged, side stand up you should get pump prime. That is before even getting into the starter circuit. And since the starter doesn't run either that should be the only possible scenario.

    Put the wiring back together like it was before.
    If you take starter cover of (one bolt, 4mm alan I think, but you have outside jump post so two bolts, the other one is T30 i think) and jump terminal 50, without disconnecting it (little black wire) to main positive terminal big 13mm nut right next to it, your jump post is attached to it. (paperclip, tweezers, needle nose pliers, you should get crank (regardless of anything else so be careful, if the bike is in gear ...off it goes , make sure it is in neutral for this test). This would prove that your battery and stater are OK. This only as a confidence building exercise since I would bet heavily against being battery or starter (very heavily). Let me know when you are there, you don't even have to put that tank back on for this one.
    Keep us posted
    Ok - I followed your steps and the starter cranked and turned over, so that eliminates the starter and the battery as problems. Any suggestions on what next?
    Last edited by jeff.ferguson; 03-10-2014 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #49
    Registered User jeff.ferguson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71243 View Post
    A few years back, I put risers on my R1150 as well. Same thing No start. Double checked my work....I had unplugged the clutch wire @ the switch inside the plastic cover...and did-not-know it. Just standing there it looked fine, but pulled back the cover and it was obvious.... Plugged it back together....all was well.,,,

    Check that and everything involved in the riser install.
    I'm not sure what switch you are referring to. Are you talking the switch you have to access underneath the clutch lever housing - the one that clicks when the clutch lever is pulled in? If so, I tried that and it didn't seem to be loose. Did you have to take apart the switch?

  5. #50
    MOA #24991 Pauls1150's Avatar
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    Chiming In

    about diodes...

    I have never seen any BMW schematic that shows any diode as a Zener - which is what would be required to "clamp" (or shunt) a voltage. (Maybe an older airhead regulator? Triumph & BSA used them with typical Lucas reliability.)
    Once a voltage is high enough to turn a diode "On" (threshold voltage; anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 volts in the "forward" direction), it is conducting until it burns out. If the voltage is high enough to cause conduction in the reverse direction, the diode is now probably damaged.

    If an item (capacitor, inductor, whatever) is "charged" up to 12 volts, and then discharged, the potential discharge is twice the source voltage, or 24 volts. However, since the resistance of whatever is being protected or discharged into is typically low, the current will be extremely high for a short time. I have seen on one-shot storage scopes where the spike actually does go higher - but that is of extremely short duration, though still enough to cause damage to other solid-state electronics.

    The starter relay is merely a remote-control switch, in that it permits a low-current circuit, and thereby smaller wiring & physical switches, to in turn energize a very high-current circuit. It is that high current that is then routed to the starter motor. The starter will draw over 100 amperes if anything causes it to bog down (just my W.A.G.; I'm certain I've seen the actual draw posted in here), and its internal copper wiring will have to live with that for the life of the unit.

    ADDENDUM: There may be confusion as to just which diodes we are referring to here. Note that the "anti-kickback" diode is INSIDE the starter relay, connected in parallel with the coil (like in Mike's picture below), and is not shown on many schematics. Without that, yes the little primary coil (relay energizer) would put out a spike that could damage other electronics (the computer). The other diodes shown in Doug R's excellent renderings are "steering" diodes for the computer's "Shall I let this bike start?" logic. These have zero bearing on any voltage control or damping.
    Last edited by Pauls1150; 03-11-2014 at 12:34 AM.

  6. #51
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    starter_jump.jpg

    Starter should spin

    bike in neutral. It will spark but not a lot
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  7. #52
    Registered User jeff.ferguson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cele0001 View Post
    starter_jump.jpg

    bike in neutral. It will spark but not a lot
    Yepper - that worked, the starter turned over.

  8. #53
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff.ferguson View Post
    Yepper - that worked, the starter turned over.
    So now we know it is not the starter and not the battery.
    And you got to wake yourself up a little
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  9. #54
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff.ferguson View Post
    Ok - I followed your steps and the starter cranked and turned over, so that eliminates the starter and the battery as problems. Any suggestions on what next?
    Now we are here.


    kill_switch.jpg

    Sorry for the picture. Maybe you can download and enlarge.

    There are four wires in this connector I am assuming it is under the tank somewhere, follow the wiring.
    This is the kill switch. If you find the connector jumper two terminals in the harness pin 9 jumpered to pin 2. That should give you your kill switch "delete"
    Other people are welcome to comment if they have intimate knowledge about where this connector is.
    I want to be unique, just like everybody else.

  10. #55
    Pauls,

    While cele and Jeff are closing in on the problem, here is how a regular diode clamps reverse voltage on a relay coil.
    It prevents spikes from damaging relay drive components.
    My diagram shows a switch, and the diode is not necessary, but if the relay was driven with a transistor, the spikes would damage it.

    Mike Marr
    1978 Yamaha XS750 (Needs rings), 1996 BMW R1100RS, 2004 Honda CRF230F

  11. #56
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    This should help you locate and know what it looks like

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-99-03-12...-/271369122244


    I will give you about 15minutes to look and understand what we are trying to do. Other people please if you have easier way you are more than welcome.
    I want to be unique, just like everybody else.

  12. #57
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls1150 View Post
    about diodes...

    I have never seen any BMW schematic that shows any diode as a Zener - which is what would be required to "clamp" (or shunt) a voltage. (Maybe an older airhead regulator? Triumph & BSA used them with typical Lucas reliability.)
    Once a voltage is high enough to turn a diode "On" (threshold voltage; anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 volts in the "forward" direction), it is conducting until it burns out. If the voltage is high enough to cause conduction in the reverse direction, the diode is now probably damaged.

    If an item (capacitor, inductor, whatever) is "charged" up to 12 volts, and then discharged, the potential discharge is twice the source voltage, or 24 volts. However, since the resistance of whatever is being protected or discharged into is typically low, the current will be extremely high for a short time. I have seen on one-shot storage scopes where the spike actually does go higher - but that is of extremely short duration, though still enough to cause damage to other solid-state electronics.

    The starter relay is merely a remote-control switch, in that it permits a low-current circuit, and thereby smaller wiring & physical switches, to in turn energize a very high-current circuit. It is that high current that is then routed to the starter motor. The starter will draw over 100 amperes if anything causes it to bog down (just my W.A.G.; I'm certain I've seen the actual draw posted in here), and its internal copper wiring will have to live with that for the life of the unit.

    It's not a zener, it is a blocking diode in the starter circuit
    It is located in the fuse box underneath the fuses in a small white plastic package with 1/4" fastons on it.
    Check out the schematic and you will see it. Its worth checking for function.

    61 31 1 375 475 DIODE, NATURAL COLOR
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    '
    Ufda happens..........

    Need your R11xx Hall sensor rewired? PM me.

  13. #58
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    I have to leave for a little. Family things
    I want to be unique, just like everybody else.

  14. #59
    Instigator cele0001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    It's not a zener, it is a blocking diode in the starter circuit
    It is located in the fuse box underneath the fuses in a small white plastic package with 1/4" fastons on it.
    Check out the schematic and you will see it. Its worth checking for function.

    61 31 1 375 475 DIODE, NATURAL COLOR
    This is also flyback or kickback diode designed to isolate solenoid kickback. It should be somewhere on the circuit 50 wire going to the solenoid (or in parallel with it). I think even with it disconnected the circuit will work just be "unprotected". But in this case we are not getting to it since the starter relay is not clicking.
    I want to be unique, just like everybody else.

  15. #60
    Day Dreaming ... happy wanderer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorradmike View Post
    Pauls,

    While cele and Jeff are closing in on the problem, here is how a regular diode clamps reverse voltage on a relay coil.
    It prevents spikes from damaging relay drive components.
    My diagram shows a switch, and the diode is not necessary, but if the relay was driven with a transistor, the spikes would damage it.

    What Mike has drawn here always confused students back in electronics class. It looks backwards because the cathode is facing the "wrong" way for current to flow. In the industry we call them reverse voltage protection diodes or clamping diodes. When you energize a coil (like the one in the starter relay) a magnetic field is created and when you remove the voltage that energizes the coil a very large voltage spike often occurs as the field collapses. These voltages can be extremely high and will damage other components in the circuit. If allowed to flow back through the circuit bad things are going to happen to devices that will not tolerate these high voltages.

    The diode in this case provides reverse voltage protection of the voltage spikes from the relay coil.
    MJM - BeeCeeBeemers Motorcycle Club Vancouver B.C.
    '81 R80G/S, '82 R100RS, '00 R1100RT

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