Closed thread

lkchris · Feb 4, 2014

A lot of us aren't very good at this.

Sorry, but like most things, education and training are required.

A couple things ...

Nothing (zero, zip, nada) about simply being a motorcyclist makes you an expert on "freedom" in a political science context.

The concept "if you don't like it, don't read it" is inane and about as indicative of lack of education as it gets. Life is about effect, and little about intent. Are ya gonna use a racial epithet in the wrong situation and tell those sensitive to that that if they don't like it don't listen? Sorry, but you're mistaken if you think you're "free" to say anything you want. Always and anywhere. You've got more learning to go.

It's just motorcycles here is the best approach.

akbeemer · Feb 4, 2014

lkchris said:
It's just motorcycles here is the best approach.

And oil; don't forget oil.

BCKRider · Feb 5, 2014

lkchris said:
A lot of us aren't very good at this.

Sorry, but like most things, education and training are required.

A couple things ...

Nothing (zero, zip, nada) about simply being a motorcyclist makes you an expert on "freedom" in a political science context.

The concept "if you don't like it, don't read it" is inane and about as indicative of lack of education as it gets. Life is about effect, and little about intent. Are ya gonna use a racial epithet in the wrong situation and tell those sensitive to that that if they don't like it don't listen? Sorry, but you're mistaken if you think you're "free" to say anything you want. Always and anywhere. You've got more learning to go.

It's just motorcycles here is the best approach.

I don't like to think I am a stupid person, but I just can't understand that post. Could ikchris perhaps clarify what he is trying to communicate?

SCBuckeye · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
Or said another way... If you don't like the Posting Guidelines...you don't come inside and ignore them. You go to where the rules match how and what you want to discuss.

Those "rules" you talk about weren't on the 10 commandment tablets of stone. They can be changed. I try to abide by them (in spite of the fact that some get by with preferential treatment), but sometimes one has to speak up.

The second problem is that the "rules" are interpreted by the mods, and certainly their interpretations are not without bias. Who saying what matters.

mika · Feb 5, 2014

jimmylee said:
Those "rules" you talk about weren't on the 10 commandment tablets of stone. They can be changed. I try to abide by them (in spite of the fact that some get by with preferential treatment), but sometimes one has to speak up.

The second problem is that the "rules" are interpreted by the mods, and certainly their interpretations are not without bias. Who saying what matters.

mika said:
The moderators are the ones that must read the posts. They are the ones that can not choose to ignore a thread. They are the ones that must make the judgment call of what actions to take when a member flags a post as maybe over the top.

These the POSTING GUIDELINES they have been given to work with.
What in the guidelines would you change?
Why and to what end?
How would you word the change?
How would you enforce the change?

Throwing stones while having a bit of a rant or trying to build a community?

:lurk

98lee · Feb 5, 2014

jimmylee said:
Those "rules" you talk about weren't on the 10 commandment tablets of stone. They can be changed. I try to abide by them (in spite of the fact that some get by with preferential treatment), but sometimes one has to speak up.

The second problem is that the "rules" are interpreted by the mods, and certainly their interpretations are not without bias. Who saying what matters.

This is addressed to EVERYONE:

PLEASE!
If you have an issue: FOLLOW THE GUIDELINES (Have you REALLY read them?) http://forums.bmwmoa.org/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_postingguidelines

In Part:

I. User Conduct and Posting Policy

Concerns and Complaints

Moderator actions are final, and moderators are not to be harassed either publicly or via PM. If you feel that you have been treated unfairly by a moderator, then your course of action is to bring the issue to the attention of the Forum Liaison at liaison@bmwmoa.org. It will help to have a complete explanation of your thoughts with links to specific threads and posts, so that the liaison can get an understanding of your side of the issue.

If you see a posting that you feel is inappropriate and want to bring it to the moderation team's attention, please do not try to do this by posting in the thread. Instead, at the bottom left of every posting is a blue exclamation mark . Click on this button and write a short statement indicating the problem you perceive with the post. The button is also available in the private message (PM) system, and you can report unwanted PMs to the moderators, too. The moderation team will receive and review your report. Please have some patience, as the moderators are volunteers and it may take a while before they have an opportunity to check it out.

Your issues should be taken up with the FORUM LIASON NOT continually posted on the forum. (Has anyone actually contacted him???)

We have received NUMEROUS complaints about SEVERAL posters recently in this and the Philip Seymour Hoffman thread. If the tone and content don't change our next step according to the GUIDELINES is:

II. Suspension of Posting Privileges

We don't take suspending posting privileges lightly, but we are also serious about maintaining a friendly and fraternal atmosphere on the forum. If a user threatens that with violations of these posting guidelines, they may have their posting privileges suspended.

The forum software provides a facility called infractions. The basic idea is that moderators can issue an infraction against a user that violates the posting guidelines. Infractions build up points, and when the point total reaches certain levels, the user is automatically banned. The length of time a ban lasts depends on how many points the user has acquired. The points also expire after a while, so a user's point total will tend to return to zero.

You can view your own history and status by clicking on the User CP link at the top of every forum page. Only you and the moderators can see this information.

It is possible to become permanently banned from the forum when enough points are acquired in a short enough period. The user will remain banned until such a time as the BMW MOA Board of Directors, acting on a petition by the banned user for the probationary return of posting privileges, approves of the probationary lifting of the suspension.

The point totals that lead to banning, and the length of a ban, are subject to occasional revision. Currently, they are:

Point Total Length of Ban
10 Points 2 Days
13 Points 7 Days
16 Points 2 Weeks
18 Points 1 Month
20 Points 3 Months
25 Points Permanent
Moderators have complete freedom to assign points and their expiration length. Typically, they are assigned according to perceived severity of the infraction, between 2 and 5 points, lasting for 1-2 months. Users with a history of infractions or who egregiously violate the guidelines can receive a greater number of points with longer expiration times. All moderation actions are final, subject to review by the Forum Liaison.

PLEASE, EVERYONE, just take it down a notch or two. Resist the urge for tit for tat useless oneupsmanship and the moderators can and will back out of the picture.

:dance

71243 · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
Or said another way... If you don't like the Posting Guidelines...you don't come inside and ignore them. You go to where the rules match how and what you want to discuss.

And just how ? did I ignore the guidelines?. By not agreeing with you ? Having a different perspective on the issue than some others?

98lee · Feb 5, 2014

PLEASE. Give it a rest and read post #46 one more time.

If you have an issue with the guidelines (the whole point of this thread) take it up with the Forum Liason.

Thanks.

:dance

beemerdons · Feb 5, 2014

71243 said:
And just how ? did I ignore the guidelines?. By not agreeing with you ? Having a different perspective on the issue than some others?

+1, Gunny; just went back and read all Ron's comments, an obvious guideline violation is certainly not jumping off the page at me! jes' sayin' and nuff said!

71243 · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
PLEASE. Give it a rest and read post #46 one more time.

If you have an issue with the guidelines (the whole point of this thread) take it up with the Forum Liason.

Thanks.

OK, just read it. Show me where I ignored , whatever you seem to think I ignored ?

I have no issue with the guidelines , and stayed within them...

98lee · Feb 5, 2014

71243 said:
So by closing a thread you are saying that even though this is a paid membership , we as members cannot discuss what we choose to ? legal issues/topics,.. even in a civil manner?.

That is correct. Since you obviously disagree, your next step should be to take it up with the Forum Liason, NOT to continue argueing on this forum.

71243 said:
Or said another way...if you do not like the topic...you wait outside by not opening the thread & then complaining about what is being discussed....

That is not what the Guidelines say. If you disagree with the guidelines, talk to the Forum Liason.

:dance

greenwald · Feb 5, 2014

Jim C. / Ron / Don -

I respect your efforts to try and establish a level playing field on this Forum, but for now, I think that's an unrealistic goal.

While I too can read English, and therefore understand (not the same as 'agreeing') that firearms, abortion, politics, religion, etc. shall not be subjects of commentary, it's frustrating when certain personalities seem to enjoy immunity, even when characterizing my faith as "pollution."

That verbiage was brought to the attention of moderators and the response is a private matter between him and I, but it didn't leave me satisfied.

I think any further bantering here is counter-productive to solving these issues (civility, topics that are or should be tolerated, deviation from topics, moderation bias, etc.).

I hope to see Bob (Executive Director) this weekend at the IMS in Chicago for a face-to-face chat on how the Forum might be altered, managed and/or improved.

Until then, I suggest a "stand-down" and let comments/responses bounce off thick skin. :banghead

osbornk · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
Or said another way... If you don't like the Posting Guidelines...you don't come inside and ignore them. You go to where the rules match how and what you want to discuss.

Some will and when renewal comes around.........

98lee · Feb 5, 2014

greenwald said:
While I too can read English, and therefore understand (not the same as 'agreeing') that firearms, abortion, politics, religion, etc. shall not be subjects of commentary, it's frustrating when certain personalities seem to enjoy immunity, even when characterizing my faith as "pollution."

Kevin,

Taking into account your previous employment, I would have expected accuracy to be high on your priorities.

In that interest, here is the complete quote:

There are a few thousand places on the internet where you all are free to preach or yell at each other regarding drugs, addiction, sexuality, politics, religion, guns, or whatever you want. But on this BMW motorcycle fourm this is all just pollution. Please go pollute someplace else.

The operative words here are: PREACH OR YELL REGARDING. That is what is POLLUTION. Since Forum discussions of drugs, sexuality, politics, religion, or guns generally end up with a lot of yelling and preaching they BECOME pollution.

The subject (or your religion) was NOT characterized as pollution, the inevitable preaching or yelling that would come of such a discussion is what was characterized as pollution. NO ONE ATTACKED YOUR RELIGION. That's EXACTLY what we as moderarors are trying our damndest to prevent by trying to keep to the guidelines.

71243 · Feb 5, 2014

greenwald said:
Jim C. / Ron / Don -

I respect your efforts to try and establish a level playing field on this Forum, but for now, I think that's an unrealistic goal.

While I too can read English, and therefore understand (not the same as 'agreeing') that firearms, abortion, politics, religion, etc. shall not be subjects of commentary, it's frustrating when certain personalities seem to enjoy immunity, even when characterizing my faith as "pollution."

That verbiage was brought to the attention of moderators and the response is a private matter between him and I, but it didn't leave me satisfied.

I think any further bantering here is counter-productive to solving these issues (civility, topics that are or should be tolerated, deviation from topics, moderation bias, etc.).

I hope to see Bob (Executive Director) this weekend at the IMS in Chicago for a face-to-face chat on how the Forum might be altered, managed and/or improved.

Until then, I suggest a "stand-down" and let comments/responses bounce off thick skin.

I have never displayed [thin] skin. And see nowhere that I went outside the guidelines. I only expressed my opinion on a current event. and that opinion differ's from that of some other members.

71243 · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
That is correct. Since you obviously disagree, your next step should be to take it up with the Forum Liason, NOT to continue argueing on this forum.

That is not what the Guidelines say. If you disagree with the guidelines, talk to the Forum Liason.

Common sense would tell [me] to not open a thread if I do like the subject. As opposed to opening it then telling another poster he/she has no right post it.

36654 · Feb 5, 2014

98lee said:
The subject (or your religion) was NOT characterized as pollution, the inevitable preaching or yelling that would come of such a discussion is what was characterized as pollution. NO ONE ATTACKED YOUR RELIGION. That's EXACTLY what we as moderarors are trying our damndest to prevent by trying to keep to the guidelines.

Lee,

You are fighting the good fight. I wish you well and find it humorous that they decided to take the issue to the executive director instead of the board.

Jon

lagator · Feb 5, 2014

greenwald said:
Jim C. / Ron / Don -

While I too can read English, and therefore understand (not the same as 'agreeing') that firearms, abortion, politics, religion, etc. shall not be subjects of commentary, it's frustrating when certain personalities seem to enjoy immunity, even when characterizing my faith as "pollution."

I think any further bantering here is counter-productive to solving these issues (civility, topics that are or should be tolerated, deviation from topics, moderation bias, etc.).

+ 100 Kevin

akbeemer · Feb 5, 2014

Some folks are an argument looking for a place to happen. Keep fighting the good fight mods.

Kristopher · Feb 5, 2014

I don't come to a motorcycle forum to hear people bickering about politics or anything like that. There is an off topic thread on another forum I belong to and it is simple enough to avoid and not go in that thread because it only irritates me. The moderators however do have to deal with it and constantly monitor it. I wouldn't want to deal with it. Gets old quick I'm sure. People can't seem to agree to disagree and then it get's ugly. I agree with akbeemer.

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