• Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password.

    If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?

  • Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.

    The Election forum is here: Election Forum

Removing Hot or Cold Nuts?

Darryl Cainey

Sir Darby
Now that I have your attention!

My (New to me) 1993 R100GS was extremely well looked after with 2 owners and only 14,700 miles.
I was wondering if the exhaust nuts have ever been loosened at all, seeing no evidence of anti-seize compound.

I have the proper BMW Nut Removal Tool and am well aware of the perils involved and when to stop turning.

My question is: Is it better to undo the nuts when they are hot or cold.

Would Thermal expansion for aluminum on aluminum come into effect?.

Thanks
 
Darryl -

Interesting issue. I suppose if you could heat the nuts without heating the header port, you might get some advantage. But the finned nut will dissipate the heat quickly. I'd say try some penetrant, heat the nut, then let it cool....that will suck in the penetrant. Try that a few times. Might help. But as you know, better safe than sorry and cut the exhaust nuts off.
 
My 2 cents worth.

In my experience in a machine shop, never heat up aluminum on aluminum unless you can guarantee that the nut (in this case) will heat hotter than the head. Heat will tend to soften aluminum in this situation probably making alum on alum gaulding MORE likely, not less.


We had some success if we would use dry ice on the inner item (hoping to shrink it) and mild, well distributed heat on the external part.

My recent experience with my own R100. It appeared to me that the exhaust nuts hadn't been off in years, if ever. I took my nut removal tool and tried to rotate one of the nuts without any heat (did use penetrant) with no luck. I did not use any force other than my turning which yielded the whole bike starting to tip. I stopped, and wanted to think about it some more (weeks).

The next time, I tried, I did a slight heating of the fins only so that some heat would dissipate into the nut, but hopefully NO heat would get to the head. Then I used my wrench (about 1 foot long handle) and lightly tapped with a pretty heavy rubber mallet. I had instant success. I have heard that the danger after getting nut first to move, is that if you keep moving, that is when the gauld will start. So, I lightly reapplied heat (using Bernzomatic) and the nut rotated freely. Added a little more penetrant and rotated nut by hand back and forth as I went to try to distribute penetrant into threads as much as I could.

No problems - nut further rotated by hand and absolutely zero gaulding.

Embolden, I did the exact same process to the right side. Had perfect results!

May not work for you, but two things I would advise: Never force nut - even after getting it to move a little. just keep working it. If it won't go further - cut it off as recommenced by others. Cheaper to purchase a new or used nut than to ruin threads on head. Second, Use heat carefully, never concentrate too much in one place, and try to keep inside item cool by not getting heat on it, if possible, or using cooling methods if possible (regular ice or dry ice, or liquid nitrogen - keep your fingers out of it as it will freeze them in moments). Remember heat rises, so apply heat more from below than from above.

It is easier to do situations where aluminum is over steel or iron (like a steel screw/bolt screwed into aluminum). Aluminum expands much faster than steel and therefore heating both is less critical as aluminum will expand a lot and steel will only expand a little (relatively)
 
Last edited:
Pretty much as described, use a propane type torch to heat the nut at the base of the fins, all around. It doesn't have to get really hot, but very warm. It should come off. If not, I'd likely leave it alone and cut it off when the day comes you have to do that.

Make sure to use COPPER anti-seize, not the gray colored stuff. It is harder to find. I had to order mine from Amazon.
 
Pretty much as described, use a propane type torch to heat the nut at the base of the fins, all around. It doesn't have to get really hot, but very warm. It should come off. If not, I'd likely leave it alone and cut it off when the day comes you have to do that.

Make sure to use COPPER anti-seize, not the gray colored stuff. It is harder to find. I had to order mine from Amazon.

Copper is available from NAPA, and I think McMaster Carr & Grainger and many other places. Likely to be at truck repair shops/stores.
 
Why, I have been using the gray stuff for more the 25 years?

Personally, I have not understood the infatuation with the copper stuff, because if one removes the nuts regularly if not to just "re-lube" with the aluminum anti-sieze they will still work and can be removed properly.

I use a little other method in addition. I take a few drops of Marvel Mystery oil or the like to make sure that every thread on both items is lubricated so that the anti-sieze doesn't stay in one spot. Anti sieze needs to be distributed on every thread, the oil helps.

It is true, however, that the copper is designed to be for "high heat" situations like exhaust nuts. At Rubbermaid the injection machines would get extremely hot so copper is all they used.

I think the "copper-only" notion was pushed by Chris Harris (with lots of foul language) because he doesn't like the silver type. But I think silver works fine (as attested to here) if one doesn't go another 25 years before re-application of anti-sieze.
 
The copper simply works better in all applications, esp. high heat. I quit using the gray stuff about ten years ago on all applications. Copper works better, and it's only a bit more expensive. Use the best. I don't crack my exhaust nuts yearly. With the copper, I don't worry about it, but for one reason or another, it seems I remove nuts at least every five years for something.

This is the Chris Harris video mentioned. He does bad mouth Nickel anti seize at about 10:30. Watch the video, it will give you a lot of good advice and help if you need it. With heat, I've never had to cut off a nut. There may be controversy over the point of "is copper better than Nickel." But, since you are talking low cost difference, and no one argues silver is BETTER than Nickel, do yourself a favor and toss out the silver and buy some copper. You can't go wrong, and you might just go right. I for one would NEVER use silver on V8 engine head bolts, it's crap. It looks like concrete after time. Copper is always copper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXKC9Yxfug
 
I use the copper type as I found a full bottle while stopped at a signal one day and saw it laying in the debris field. I've had that bottle for about 7 yrs now and many applications. Thank you to somebody!

I don't think many folks think about regularly adding that step in bike maintenance...have seen some really knarly Oilhead studs at the header flange and nuts that do not come off "easily". If I see corrosion...I tread lightly...PB Blaster, heat...go have a cup of coffee and hold your mouth right.
I recently removed the collars on the /5 rescue...let those soak for a few days and didn't go crazy with the leverage that big fin wrench can provide.

I had to remove the headers on a Honda Valkyrie just to remove rear axle for a tire change...every one of the 12 nuts were rusted/corroded and had me ready for that sickening"snap" even after sitting with penetrant. They got slathered with anti-seize for sure even though I prob will never see that bike again...habit.
 
This made me think more about ex. nuts. I've never loosened or reapplied copper anti-seize to the nuts on my 2005 R12RT. But I guess that would not be a bad idea? I must say that without looking, I can't really even picture what they look like!
 
I've given this a great deal of thought but I cannot figure out how this will work on an airhead... motorcycle.
 

Attachments

  • m0FF-MjcUdKKlkfPJzahbzQ.jpg
    m0FF-MjcUdKKlkfPJzahbzQ.jpg
    8.3 KB · Views: 184
Well I looked at the R12RT, it does not have spin on nuts like the airheads, so I'm leaving it be.

no, they are plated cap nuts on our Oil & Hexheads. Still removed and coated them at 24K intervals. I had removed the headers the first time to Jet-Hot them so the anti-seize was a no brainer the first time.
 
In the last month I have acquired a 91 R100GS. I have been doing small maintenance, cleaning wheels, replacing wheel bearings, brakes, ect. ,until weather here breaks and the bike can be taken out and washed down properly. One of those priority items will be removing exhaust nuts. I am confused as to the opinions of correct type of anti-seize. It appears in the video, the opinion is, anything other than copper is "f$%#&*g crap". But having gone to http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/chemicalsetc.htm , I find information that advocates the use of Nickel paste. Can I get an explanation, other than what is spewed in the video, why copper is superior tho nickel.
 
In the last month I have acquired a 91 R100GS. I have been doing small maintenance, cleaning wheels, replacing wheel bearings, brakes, ect. ,until weather here breaks and the bike can be taken out and washed down properly. One of those priority items will be removing exhaust nuts. I am confused as to the opinions of correct type of anti-seize. It appears in the video, the opinion is, anything other than copper is "f$%#&*g crap". But having gone to http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/chemicalsetc.htm , I find information that advocates the use of Nickel paste. Can I get an explanation, other than what is spewed in the video, why copper is superior tho nickel.

Copper is definitely designed for hot temp. applications. At Rubbermaid, where I was a Purchasing agent and managed the parts department, we would ONLY use copper due to the fact that the machines ran extremely hot - especially at the injection end where the temps were like those that would be achieve on an motorcycle exhaust system.

However I have used the nickel for years with no problem, IMO Chris Harris is simply overblowing the situation. If you take those exhaust nuts off on a regular basis (once per year or once every two years, you would have no problem

I went to NAPA and bought a tube of the copper, so now I have both. I went and switched to copper on my exhaust nuts and other hot applications, but I still use the nickel everywhere else.

The copper tube will last you a lifetime, and only costs if I remember correctly around $7.00.
 
In looking at the Technical Data Sheets found at the Permatex site, the difference between the nickel anti-seize and the copper anti-seize seems to be only in the upper temperature of the "protection". The copper goes to 1800F whereas the nickel goes to 2400F. The TDSs suggest that the nickel be used when copper contamination is to be avoided (not really our problem) and the copper is good for electrical conductivity (definitely not our problem). They both suggest they're good for exhaust manifold and system bolts. The nickel indicates that it shouldn't be used with ferrous type connections, but aluminum is not mentioned.

So, it appears that they both do the same thing...nickel works up to a higher temperature. Why not use nickel! Higher is better right?? :laugh
 
Back
Top