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Had To Lay'er Down

The only argument for "laying the bike down" and sliding instead of trying to come to a regular braked stop is avoiding an impact for the rider and flying through the air.

That argument remains weak, and having an "on purpose" must be considered a "last choice" option.
The problem is that there continues to be the mythology of the value of being able to "lay 'er down" as a primary accident "avoidance" technique.
 
Okay, so maybe this guy really did have to lay'er down.....

[video]http://www.streetfire.net/video/motorcycle-rider-slides-under-truck_2280316.htm[/video]
 
That argument remains weak, and having an "on purpose" must be considered a "last choice" option.
The problem is that there continues to be the mythology of the value of being able to "lay 'er down" as a primary accident "avoidance" technique.

Yep - Choosing to "lay'er down" is committing to the "accident" (crash), not avoiding it at all. The only thing it may do is allow you to choose which crash you are going to have.
 
Okay, so maybe this guy really did have to lay'er down.....

[video]http://www.streetfire.net/video/motorcycle-rider-slides-under-truck_2280316.htm[/video]

Or if he was watching cross traffic more than trying to beat the light, maybe it could have been avoided. Goofy intersection with a lot going on, but it looked like he could have seen that the truck was entering the intersection. If things had bounced a little differently, he could have been run over.

A couple years back a guy who I'd ridden with off road a couple times lost his life in a similar incident with a car. It pulled out in front of him and he hit the pavement. I'm not sure if he hit the rear brake or front brake, tucked the front end with a handful or slid the rear around intentionally, but the end result was him going under the back tire and being crushed.
 
and having an "on purpose" must be considered a "last choice" option.
.

That was exactly my point. The choice between running head-on into an obstacle or "sliding" towards or into it. I had low-sides on the track and I tell you, I did not slide far. My bike always slid away from me and I was on my feet before the thing came a stop!
 
Okay, so maybe this guy really did have to lay'er down.....

[video]http://www.streetfire.net/video/motorcycle-rider-slides-under-truck_2280316.htm[/video]

1. Is that a cop car to the rider's left?
2. Is that traffic light red?

Leads me to believe the rider was perhaps travelling at a high rate of speed and possibly in a chase situation. I wasn't there so I don't know for certain. Just weighing the facts, ma'am. Just the facts. :D
 
That was exactly my point. The choice between running head-on into an obstacle or "sliding" towards or into it. I had low-sides on the track and I tell you, I did not slide far. My bike always slid away from me and I was on my feet before the thing came a stop!

Well, let's go back to the issue at hand to determine if that makes sense.
First, we need to talk about street riding, not track riding, which are two at least somewhat different things.
What stops a bike faster? Sliding, or ABS brakes?
What causes greater stopping resistance, metal and plastic on the side of the bike, or the wheels and tires and brake pads?
Because, if we end up running into something, we want to do so a a lower speed, right? Rather than a higher speed, right?
So what gives us the most ability to reduce that speed?
dc
 
Rubber has better traction the metal.

Another way of saying this is that rubber has a higher coefficient of friction.

Here's another point for the "lay 'er down crowd:"

The coefficient of sliding friction is lower than the static coefficient of friction. You can stop quicker on a tire that is not locked up than on a tire that is, because you are using the higher coefficient of friction, the static coefficient of friction.

This is why in drag racing, when a racer "goes up in smoke," he spun the tires, and went from static to sliding coefficient of friction, and lost the race.

Harry
 
Well, let's go back to the issue at hand to determine if that makes sense.
First, we need to talk about street riding, not track riding, which are two at least somewhat different things.
What stops a bike faster? Sliding, or ABS brakes?
What causes greater stopping resistance, metal and plastic on the side of the bike, or the wheels and tires and brake pads?
Because, if we end up running into something, we want to do so a a lower speed, right? Rather than a higher speed, right?
So what gives us the most ability to reduce that speed?
dc

It doesn't have anything to do with track vs street.
The issue is, in an unavoidable accident and impact, you need to separate yourself from the bike. If you hang on to your handlebars and wait what will happen, whether your ABS brakes are going to stop you or not, you may be in serious trouble.
I used the track example only to illustrate that your body may come to a safe stop away and before your bike. You do learn this on the track, however.
 
Right.
It has to do with what stops or slows you faster.
What stops or slows you faster?
(Hint: refer to some of the other posts here)
dc
 
I've taken a lot of track classes (Cornerspeed, Cornerspin, and Superbike). This topic came up every time. We were NEVER told to lay a bike down on purpose. We were, however, coached to separate from the bike ASAP IF we low sided. I low sided my RT and the weight of the bike on my leg was reason enough to push away.
 
It is all physics, Braking on good tires, dry pavement will yield 1G+ stopping force A bike sliding on its side AND a human sliding on the pavement about 0.3-0.4G, so While I am stopped in 120-140', from 60 mph, you and your sliding MC will be still traveling 30-45 mph. And to come to a stop, you are looking at over 300' (the entire length of a football field)


Seperation after the fact is a good idea, if you can pull it off, but things happen fast. Best is to avoid, practice braking, and know you and your bikes capability.
 
O.K., one final post on this: I never said you should lay the bike down and slide rather than brake. I am all for stopping the bike. The only thing I said was that there is only one argument for sliding, and this is when an impact cannot be avoided, you should let the bike go (lay it down) rather than hitting the obstacle while sitting on it. I also never said that track schools tell you to lay a bike down on purpose. They try to teach you to stay on it. But they tell you to separate from the bike, if you spill.
Now all you guys can keep repeating that sliding is bad and your ABS equipped bike will stop quicker when brakes are used than when sliding on the ground. I don't argue with this. Never did. Next time, when a minivan runs a red light and you are about to T-bone it at 55 mph, just sit on the bike and hit all the brakes as hard as you can!:clap
 
I've taken a lot of track classes (Cornerspeed, Cornerspin, and Superbike). This topic came up every time. We were NEVER told to lay a bike down on purpose. We were, however, coached to separate from the bike ASAP IF we low sided. I low sided my RT and the weight of the bike on my leg was reason enough to push away.

Precisely.

"Sliding" isn't 'old school' ............ it's 'no school!' :banghead
 
Next time, when a minivan runs a red light and you are about to T-bone it at 55 mph, just sit on the bike and hit all the brakes as hard as you can!:clap

You portray what appears to be a no win situation, but I'd still prefer to remain in a position where I can decrease the speed and alter the direction of the motorcycle in a controlled manner; no matter how slightly. In any case, hitting the van is not going to be made any better by sliding into it on my posterior and doing it in that manner is certainly far less dignified. Intentionally crashing the bike (laying'er down) takes some purposeful action by the rider and a discrete amount of time to take place. To my way of thinking the reaction and execution time required to intentionally crash the bike is better spent reducing the impact speed or altering the direction of the bike to perhaps avoid the impact. I suspect that just like any other riding skill laying the bike down correctly requires instruction and repetition; that could be costly and painful indeed. Practicing emergency braking and avoidance manuvers seems a bit more sensible. I do hope that neither of us gets into a position where we can prove or disprove our opinion on the issue.
 
Well, yeah.
I realized what he is talking about. In the car, a car pulls out in front of you, so you unlatch your seatbelt, open the door ... and bail!
Jump out, roll, and land on your feet.
I get it now, makes all the sense in the world, doesn't it?
That business of abs and stomp, stay, steer, is just nonsense.
Bail! Like the kids say.
And like they do in the airplanes.
dc
 
Apparently quite easily giving the number of times various bikes I've owned with ABS brakes have been on their side. :deal

That, by God, is a true statement! In my 40 years of riding I never put one on her side until I hooked up with my illustrious '04 top heavy linked brakes RT. See: Flea Market

Of course she shed her ABS system couple years ago and good riddance. :mad
 
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