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Thread: Stuck Fillster Head Alternator Head Screw Screw

  1. #1
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Stuck Fillister Head Alternator Head Screw

    Good afternoon,

    Just in from the shop and have taken everything apart in the timing and alternator chest. The Fillster Head Screw part # 12 31 8 002 348 which comes part way and that is as far as it wants to go. I don't want to start forcing it out for fear of damaging something internally. Is there something I am missing in removing this, as I have the Jacking Screw ready to go in to remove the rotor.
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    Last edited by b25bsaboy; 12-16-2013 at 03:10 PM.
    Rick MacPherson
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  2. #2
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by b25bsaboy View Post
    Good afternoon,

    Just in from the shop and have taken everything apart in the timing and alternator chest. The Fillster Head Screw part # 12 31 8 002 348 which comes part way and that is as far as it wants to go. I don't want to start forcing it out for fear of damaging something internally. Is there something I am missing in removing this, as I have the Jacking Screw ready to go in to remove the rotor.
    Just went back into the shop, had two mouthfuls of coffe and wondered out loud, in that maybe it screws all the way out. Sure enough it is now out and the rotor is free.

    Guess there are some days, you wonder why you even get out of bed!
    Rick MacPherson
    Success is Not a Destination, But a Journey.
    Accredited Motorcycle Appraiser
    1968 BSA Starfire, 73 R75/5 SWB, 2008 Honda GL-1800 Lehman Trike

  3. #3
    Liaison 20774's Avatar
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    Rick -

    I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that the bolt has turned out past the threads in the nose of the crank and has entered the internal threads of the rotor itself. I don't have a good visual right now...someone on the Airheads site had a real great "cartoon" of this operation. But if the bolt has gone far enough, the only thing holding the rotor on is the compression of the taper fit. If you had a way of getting it pushed off, you could then deal with the backside of the rotor and hopefully fix things. You could force some penetrant down the shaft of the bolt...that should get to the threads on the outboard side...maybe soak enough to help out. You might want to protect the rotor from flying off on its own. I might put my hands on the rotor and see if a little wiggling action might free it up...I wouldn't go at it very hard, though.

    If someone had a rotor bolt out of their bike, they could measure the grip length and you could use that to see where the threads were in relation to the crank nose and the end of the rotor.

    Edit...never mind...all's well!!
    Kurt -- Forum Liaison ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
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  4. #4
    Registered User kwb210's Avatar
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    Anything else we can do for you!
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  5. #5
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwb210 View Post
    Anything else we can do for you!
    Have patience towards a newby!
    Rick MacPherson
    Success is Not a Destination, But a Journey.
    Accredited Motorcycle Appraiser
    1968 BSA Starfire, 73 R75/5 SWB, 2008 Honda GL-1800 Lehman Trike

  6. #6
    Registered User lmo1131's Avatar
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    Rick, not to put too fine of an academic point on it ( I could have said "spin" but that would have been a pun too ), but the "screw" in your post is, or appears to be what is left of a Phillips fillister head screw. Kind of hard to tell for certain.

    Virtually all of the online microfiche identify #12 as a fillister head, but it isn't... "fillister" denotes the shape of the head; cylindrical with a slight dome on top. Phillips is of course the type of recess, as does Slot (fillister head screws can be either).





    Phillips Fillister head


    If the screw in your engine actually is a Philiips Fillister head screw it should be replaced with a socket head cap screw (aka Allen head) for two reasons: 1) it can not be properly torqued to design specs with a Phillips recess, and 2) with the spark plugs removed, the crank shaft can be easily rotated (to set valves and timing) using a standard Allen wrench found in the tool roll.

    Socket Head Cap Screw


    To remove the rotor you would want use a jacking bolt; either buy, or modify, a socket head Allen bolt as shown below.

    EDIT - the image of the Northwood tool I posted yesterday didn't fly this morning, don't know what's up with that. But here's the same thing, basically, with an alternate method as well.



    Source: need you ask.... http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/tools.htm
    Last edited by lmo1131; 12-16-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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  7. #7
    Liaison 20774's Avatar
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    Lew -

    It looks like an Allen head bolt that has been beat up a bit.
    Kurt -- Forum Liaison ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  8. #8
    A fully threaded capscrew at that location will beget trouble. I wouldn't use anything there other than an OEM fastener. The OEM fastener has threads for a while at the tip end, then a smaller diameter smooth shank, then the head. As noted by the problem in the original post, the threads screw first through the rotor, and then the fastener slides a ways and engages the threads in the crankshaft. If the fastener is threaded full length it will interfere with obtaining the proper clamping force on the taper on the shaft since threads will be engaged in both the rotor body and the shaft.
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  9. #9
    Registered User krpntr's Avatar
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    The exact same thing happened to me the first time I ventured into the internals on my bike. But that was a time in the distant past before the internet. After frantically searching for information, thinking I striped the bolt, I lost about an hour of work time scratching my head before I proceeded to continue turning the "striped" bolt figuring I might catch enough thread to back out the bolt and, whatever I broke, I could somehow fix. When the bolt came out it was like a fog lifted, the sun was out and the birds were singing sweet songs of spring when I saw what was going on. To get the rotor off, I took a $.50 1 1/2" X 1/4" hardened concrete nail I had laying about and cut it to about an inch long, cleaned off the burrs, shoved it into the hole and re-inserted the original bolt and screwed it in till the part came off. That nail travels in the tool kit.

  10. #10
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krpntr View Post
    The exact same thing happened to me the first time I ventured into the internals on my bike. But that was a time in the distant past before the internet. After frantically searching for information, thinking I striped the bolt, I lost about an hour of work time scratching my head before I proceeded to continue turning the "striped" bolt figuring I might catch enough thread to back out the bolt and, whatever I broke, I could somehow fix. When the bolt came out it was like a fog lifted, the sun was out and the birds were singing sweet songs of spring when I saw what was going on. To get the rotor off, I took a $.50 1 1/2" X 1/4" hardened concrete nail I had laying about and cut it to about an inch long, cleaned off the burrs, shoved it into the hole and re-inserted the original bolt and screwed it in till the part came off. That nail travels in the tool kit.
    Brilliant!
    Rick MacPherson
    Success is Not a Destination, But a Journey.
    Accredited Motorcycle Appraiser
    1968 BSA Starfire, 73 R75/5 SWB, 2008 Honda GL-1800 Lehman Trike

  11. #11
    Liaison 20774's Avatar
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    Just be sure that the shank you put in there is well hardened. If the piece bends under load, you won't be having a nice day. You can use a piece of an old drill bit cut down to size. For the garage maintenance, I bought something like what Lew showed from Cycleworks.
    Kurt -- Forum Liaison ---> Resources and Links Thread <---
    '78 R100/7 & '69 R69S & '52 R25/2
    mine-ineye-deatheah-pielayah-jooa-kalayus. oolah-minane-hay-meeriah-kal-oyus-algay-a-thaykin', buddy!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lmo1131 View Post
    Rick, not to put too fine of an academic point on it ( I could have said "spin" but that would have been a pun too ), but the "screw" in your post is, or appears to be what is left of a Phillips fillister head screw. Kind of hard to tell for certain.

    Virtually all of the online microfiche identify #12 as a fillister head, but it isn't... "fillister" denotes the shape of the head; cylindrical with a slight dome on top. Phillips is of course the type of recess, as does Slot (fillister head screws can be either).





    Phillips Fillister head


    If the screw in your engine actually is a Philiips Fillister head screw it should be replaced with a socket head cap screw (aka Allen head) for two reasons: 1) it can not be properly torqued to design specs with a Phillips recess, and 2) with the spark plugs removed, the crank shaft can be easily rotated (to set valves and timing) using a standard Allen wrench found in the tool roll.

    Socket Head Cap Screw


    To remove the rotor you would want use a jacking bolt; either buy, or modify, a socket head Allen bolt as shown below.

    Be sure if you do it yourself, by buying a bolt and grinding off the threads as shown, purchase a bolt that is a higher grade than soft as explained by Kurt. You don't want that end to mushroom or bend in the process. Most bolts in general, purchased at the hardware store are as soft as butter. Ask for harder bolts or a higher grade.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

  13. #13
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmo1131 View Post
    Rick, not to put too fine of an academic point on it ( I could have said "spin" but that would have been a pun too ), but the "screw" in your post is, or appears to be what is left of a Phillips fillister head screw. Kind of hard to tell for certain.

    Virtually all of the online microfiche identify #12 as a fillister head, but it isn't... "fillister" denotes the shape of the head; cylindrical with a slight dome on top. Phillips is of course the type of recess, as does Slot (fillister head screws can be either).





    Phillips Fillister head


    If the screw in your engine actually is a Philiips Fillister head screw it should be replaced with a socket head cap screw (aka Allen head) for two reasons: 1) it can not be properly torqued to design specs with a Phillips recess, and 2) with the spark plugs removed, the crank shaft can be easily rotated (to set valves and timing) using a standard Allen wrench found in the tool roll.

    Socket Head Cap Screw


    To remove the rotor you would want use a jacking bolt; either buy, or modify, a socket head Allen bolt as shown below.

    Morning Lew,

    Trust you had a good weekend and not covered in too much white stuff.

    Thank you for the lesson in English grammar, however according to the MAX BMW Web Site fiche the term is Item #07 12 31 8 002 348 FILLISTER-HEAD SCREW 0.04 1 $14.75ADD TO CART. I agree that it should be called an Socket Head Cap Screw/Hardened Steel, but I didn't write the parts description.
    Rick MacPherson
    Success is Not a Destination, But a Journey.
    Accredited Motorcycle Appraiser
    1968 BSA Starfire, 73 R75/5 SWB, 2008 Honda GL-1800 Lehman Trike

  14. #14
    Registered User b25bsaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmylee View Post
    Be sure if you do it yourself, by buying a bolt and grinding off the threads as shown, purchase a bolt that is a higher grade than soft as explained by Kurt. You don't want that end to mushroom or bend in the process. Most bolts in general, purchased at the hardware store are as soft as butter. Ask for harder bolts or a higher grade.
    JimmyLee, Totally agree and I will only buy OEM BMW Parts for this particular application.
    Rick MacPherson
    Success is Not a Destination, But a Journey.
    Accredited Motorcycle Appraiser
    1968 BSA Starfire, 73 R75/5 SWB, 2008 Honda GL-1800 Lehman Trike

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by b25bsaboy View Post
    JimmyLee, Totally agree and I will only buy OEM BMW Parts for this particular application.
    I also agree to use OEM on the assembly SHCS, but I was referring to the "jack" bolt being purchased locally.
    "The difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't change every time congress meets." - Will Rogers

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