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Thread: Checking for spline wear 1999 R1100S

  1. #151
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    I think a clutch disk with an un-sprung hub is not the way to go with the flat twin BMW motor with its associated dry clutch. I came to this conclusion several years ago. You can theorize all day long about the forces at work that destroy input shaft splines but I really think a sprung clutch hub is the cure for the 1150. That and in the mean time avoid 6th gear unless you are traveling at a very high velocity.
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
    MOA # 50714

  2. #152
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    I think a clutch disk with an un-sprung hub is not the way to go with the flat twin BMW motor with its associated dry clutch. I came to this conclusion several years ago. You can theorize all day long about the forces at work that destroy input shaft splines but I really think a sprung clutch hub is the cure for the 1150. That and in the mean time avoid 6th gear unless you are traveling at a very high velocity.
    You are aware that the "springs" are on the input shaft inside the transmission right?
    The damping is done there.
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  3. #153
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    I think a clutch disk with an un-sprung hub is not the way to go with the flat twin BMW motor with its associated dry clutch. I came to this conclusion several years ago. You can theorize all day long about the forces at work that destroy input shaft splines but I really think a sprung clutch hub is the cure for the 1150. That and in the mean time avoid 6th gear unless you are traveling at a very high velocity.
    While it is true that there is more torque on the input shaft in 6th than in 5th, 6th is only about 20% of WOT, and the slower you're going, the lower the torque.

    If you really want to grind on the shaft use 1st, 2nd or 3rd at WOT through 4000-7000 rpm. although the engine doesn't seem so loaded, the input shaft is experiencing 100% torque and the shaft teeth are grinding at there highest rate.

  4. #154
    Registered User R100RTurbo's Avatar
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    Non Flat Clutch Plates

    Quote Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
    What does anyone think about the possibility of deformation of the metal web that connects the clutch hub to the friction plate under the following circumstances:

    --small centerline offset
    --non-flat clutch housing
    --full 70 lb.-ft. Torque load

    Below is a picture of one rb racing claims to have broken in a turbo. Seems like if you can break one you could bend it at lower loads.

    RB

    My suspicions lie with your thoughts above Roger, where distortion of both of the metal plates that surround the friction disc is a dark horse contender in the efforts to identifying spline wear. The inner plate (held in orbit by the 3 spring steel fingers) seems to dish away from the friction disk at center. The outer plate (bolts onto flywheel) can be noted as dishing away from the friction disk at its center also. This is not wear but heat warpage I'd suggest resulting from another shortfall to the design excellence of this rather "Rube Goldberg" clutch design. The top plate isn't stiff enough to remain flat being held by its outer bolt circle, the inner plate has a mechanical disadvantage of force against it from the disc spring riding against fulcrum surfaces pretty far out on its diameter. Given the thin, flexible nature of the friction disc "metal web", twisting forces that come to bear against the outer diameter (from being sandwiched between above distorted surfaces) might allow that plate to pucker and nudge the center splined hub into wobble. Add in potential engine to transmission runout, and the short spline engagement and you have a pretty good recipe for short life. Especially if a clutch disc is replaced on its own without a fastidious inspection of all components and replacement there of.
    This was discussed in another thread recently, but I wonder how many have put a straight edge on their plates to check during a clutch job (where parts are either tossed, or reused) ??

  5. #155
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    You are aware that the "springs" are on the input shaft inside the transmission right?
    The damping is done there.
    I think the springs on the input shaft are there to protect the drive gear on the shaft from damage caused by pulsing from the engine not to protect the input splines. In other words protection of the input shaft splines from engine power pulses and associated effects of rocking couple should be ahead of the input shaft splines not behind hence the spring loaded clutch disk. Roger, I understand that engine torque is higher at > RPM but because of transmission gearing effects (lower ratio in lower gears) I would think that there is less stress on input shaft splines at higher RPM. Place any manual transmission on your work bench and place it in 1st gear and by hand rotate the input shaft and note how easily it turns then place the tranny in a higher gear and see how easy (or not) it is to turn the input shaft. Try this with a slight load on the trans output to really appreciate the effect of gear ratios.

    As kind of a side note I defy anyone to perform smooth shifts consistently with the hydraulic clutch as found on the 1150 motorcycles. the nonexistent flywheel also doesn't help matters.
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
    MOA # 50714

  6. #156
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=jammess;914086
    As kind of a side note I defy anyone to perform smooth shifts consistently with the hydraulic clutch as found on the 1150 motorcycles. the nonexistent flywheel also doesn't help matters.[/QUOTE]

    I never have bad shifts, my transmission is butter smooth. Preloading the lever helps but is not mandatory.
    I do blip the throttle downshifting, really helps.
    No complaints in 254,000 km
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  7. #157
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    [QUOTE=R100RTurbo;914042
    This was discussed in another thread recently, but I wonder how many have put a straight edge on their plates to check during a clutch job (where parts are either tossed, or reused) ??[/QUOTE]

    Most used plates I have seen are not flat from od to id.
    I suggest replacement but have reused with no ill effects.
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  8. #158
    Jammess jammess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSAddict View Post
    I never have bad shifts, my transmission is butter smooth. Preloading the lever helps but is not mandatory.
    I do blip the throttle downshifting, really helps.
    No complaints in 254,000 km
    I've been trying to shift smoothly for 45K miles and I just can't seem to manage it unless I ride with the throttle position lever (choke) in the detent. Sometimes I get it right but only sometime. Other two beemers with cable operated clutches no problem. Probably just me and my poor hand/feet co-ordination. Reminds me of the driving range, sometimes I can do no wrong and other times.......
    Jammess

    '93 R1100RSL, '10 FJR1300A
    MOA # 50714

  9. #159
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    You are aware that the "springs" are on the input shaft inside the transmission right?
    The damping is done there.
    I suppose BMW might think of that cheesy little spring as a damper, but in the modern world that would be laughable. Modern day clutches have:

    • Primary idle damper springs

    • Secondary idle damper springs

    • Primary main load springs

    • Secondary main load springs

    • Friction washers

    • Axial cushion segments (single or dual)


    These damping springs need to be carefully and correctly calibrated for each engine. Considering that the oilhead has such a long engine stroke and light flywheel, these dampers would be vitally important. Failure to do so will result in premature wear to the input shaft, gear rattle, Gear crashing, premature CV wear, and final drive problem. Damping is need to reduce vibrations, resonance, crank whipping, etc.

    As Prashant Kulkarni (engineering manager of Clutch Division at Eaton Corp.) states: " That vibration then moves throughout the entire driveline, through the clutch, the transmission, down the driveshaft and to the axles. If vibration gets to be excessive it can break components like synchronizer pins, transmission and U-joint gears, he explains. ?It can even [impact] gears down in the axle or any other component that is directly in the torque path of the driveline.?

    Or, as Schaeffler (clutch mfg) states: "Engine and gearbox tolerances, especially on transmission intake shafts with out pilot bearing, result in a displacement between crankshaft and gearbox. In conjunction with rigid clutch discs, this displacement can cause idling noises and increased profile wearing in critical cases. One remedy to this problem is the displacement correction clutch disc, which enables radial displacement of the hub and thereby revents potential radial forces in the idling and low load ranges. The efficiency of the pressure springs in the displacement correction clutch disc is limited to the low load range."

    In my opinion, BMW failed to make the input shaft long enough, and they failed to properly damping the clutch. In fact, there is no clutch damping or cushioning. They put a 1950's clutch into a modern day motorcycle. It is no wonder we are having problems. Maybe BMW figured that the problems would come up after warranty. It is hard to believe that BMW didn't know about this. After all, the problem has been there since the 1970's. It is only in 2014 that BMW decided to change the clutch.

    I also believe that the RSR clutches are a movement in the right direction. They will probably reduce input shaft wear problems, gear crashing, CV joint problems, and maybe even reduce ring bearing problems. I can't see any harm in using their clutches (except they are more expensive). I know of a couple people who have used the RSR clutches and they don't seem to have drive train problems thereafter. But, I only know a few, so it is hard to determine if their calculations of spring damping was done correctly.

  10. #160
    Pepperfool GSAddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammess View Post
    I've been trying to shift smoothly for 45K miles and I just can't seem to manage it unless I ride with the throttle position lever (choke) in the detent. Sometimes I get it right but only sometime. Other two beemers with cable operated clutches no problem. Probably just me and my poor hand/feet co-ordination. Reminds me of the driving range, sometimes I can do no wrong and other times.......
    Couple of thoughts...
    Is the linkage and pivot clean and lubricated? Is it adjusted correctly for you?
    What kind of footwear are you wearing? different types?
    I have to make more positive movements with my hiking boots than with my GS boots.
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  11. #161
    Registered User dieselyoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23217 View Post
    I suppose BMW might think of that cheesy little spring as a damper, but in the modern world that would be laughable. Modern day clutches have:
    You are talking about clutch technology, dual mass clutches, and we are talking about a bike made in 1999 that uses technology from 1989. Just to throw a curve ball, Oilheads don't have a vibration damper and comments have been made on crankshaft radial play while static. Once people wrap their head around those statements, more comments will come.

    BMW doesn't make the best bikes/cars out there. They do make iron different and I am going to guess that is an attraction to learning them.

    I'm with you 23217 but the bashing will begin.
    1997 R1100RT, 1981 KZ 440 LTD, R80RT, R90/6 sidecar, K1100RS,1983 K100RS (Cafe now)

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  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23217 View Post
    I suppose BMW might think of that cheesy little spring as a damper, but in the modern world that would be laughable. Modern day clutches have:

    • Primary idle damper springs

    • Secondary idle damper springs

    • Primary main load springs

    • Secondary main load springs

    • Friction washers

    • Axial cushion segments (single or dual)


    These damping springs need to be carefully and correctly calibrated for each engine. Considering that the oilhead has such a long engine stroke and light flywheel, these dampers would be vitally important. Failure to do so will result in premature wear to the input shaft, gear rattle, Gear crashing, premature CV wear, and final drive problem. Damping is need to reduce vibrations, resonance, crank whipping, etc.

    As Prashant Kulkarni (engineering manager of Clutch Division at Eaton Corp.) states: " That vibration then moves throughout the entire driveline, through the clutch, the transmission, down the driveshaft and to the axles. If vibration gets to be excessive it can break components like synchronizer pins, transmission and U-joint gears, he explains. ?It can even [impact] gears down in the axle or any other component that is directly in the torque path of the driveline.?

    Or, as Schaeffler (clutch mfg) states: "Engine and gearbox tolerances, especially on transmission intake shafts with out pilot bearing, result in a displacement between crankshaft and gearbox. In conjunction with rigid clutch discs, this displacement can cause idling noises and increased profile wearing in critical cases. One remedy to this problem is the displacement correction clutch disc, which enables radial displacement of the hub and thereby revents potential radial forces in the idling and low load ranges. The efficiency of the pressure springs in the displacement correction clutch disc is limited to the low load range."

    In my opinion, BMW failed to make the input shaft long enough, and they failed to properly damping the clutch. In fact, there is no clutch damping or cushioning. They put a 1950's clutch into a modern day motorcycle. It is no wonder we are having problems. Maybe BMW figured that the problems would come up after warranty. It is hard to believe that BMW didn't know about this. After all, the problem has been there since the 1970's. It is only in 2014 that BMW decided to change the clutch.

    I also believe that the RSR clutches are a movement in the right direction. They will probably reduce input shaft wear problems, gear crashing, CV joint problems, and maybe even reduce ring bearing problems. I can't see any harm in using their clutches (except they are more expensive). I know of a couple people who have used the RSR clutches and they don't seem to have drive train problems thereafter. But, I only know a few, so it is hard to determine if their calculations of spring damping was done correctly.
    Some good info.
    It would be interesting to get more road data on the RSR clutches. I like what I see spring wise.
    '
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  13. #163
    Registered User PAS's Avatar
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    Very interesting discussion. Good info here: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/bmw_clutches.html

  14. #164
    Registered User roger 04 rt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23217 View Post
    I suppose BMW might think of that cheesy little spring as a damper, but in the modern world that would be laughable. Modern day clutches have:

    • Primary idle damper springs

    • Secondary idle damper springs

    • Primary main load springs

    • Secondary main load springs

    • Friction washers

    • Axial cushion segments (single or dual)


    ...

    I also believe that the RSR clutches are a movement in the right direction. They will probably reduce input shaft wear problems, gear crashing, CV joint problems, and maybe even reduce ring bearing problems. I can't see any harm in using their clutches (except they are more expensive). I know of a couple people who have used the RSR clutches and they don't seem to have drive train problems thereafter. But, I only know a few, so it is hard to determine if their calculations of spring damping was done correctly.
    Great post, thank you. Very enlightening.

    The more different angles that get discussed here, the more apparent it seems to me that there are many different aspects to why these clutch-hub and spline systems fail. A simple bottom line may be that they are under-designed for the application. I would still like to be able to picture the geometry which leads to the particular wear pattern that we see on so many shafts, about a 5 degree slant toward the inside.

    Jammess has raised the torque load question a couple times. I have lots of riding data taken with GS911s. Much of a typical trip, for many riders is made below 1/3 throttle, even accelerations. At 65 MPH on an 1150RT, in 6th gear only creates 24 lb.-ft. of torque at the transmission input, and only about 18 lb.-ft. in 5th gear--slower speeds that 65, less torque.

    At the other end, if you accelerate with WOT even in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, through 6000 rpm, the engine applies about 70 lb.-ft. of torque to the input shaft. If you ride in that style you're putting 2-3 times the torque load on the input shaft. That greater load could begin fretting wear (someone please correct me if I'm thinking of this incorrectly) that might progress later at lower torque as the particles accumulate in grease or get embedded in the softer clutch hub.

    RB

  15. #165
    Curmudgeon nrpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 23217 View Post
    • Primary idle damper springs

    • Secondary idle damper springs

    • Primary main load springs

    • Secondary main load springs

    • Friction washers

    • Axial cushion segments (single or dual)


    These damping springs need to be carefully and correctly calibrated for each engine. Considering that the oilhead has such a long engine stroke and light flywheel, these dampers would be vitally important. Failure to do so will result in premature wear to the input shaft, gear rattle, Gear crashing, premature CV wear, and final drive problem. Damping is need to reduce vibrations, resonance, crank whipping, etc.
    I understood from the driveline people at Toyota in the 1980s that they were developing this to get rid of transmission "chuckle" when idling in neutral with 4 cyl engines. They never mentioned durability.

    But why do some bikes have essentially zero wear and others rub out the splines in comparatively few miles? I don't think it is driveline abuse/driving habits. My 2000 R1100RT is being driven by an elderly driver (me) @ modest rpms and high gears, yet showed no wear.

    Do those of you who have had a spline strip-out consider yourselves as aggressive drivers? or is it just a random failure?
    Retired w 2005 K1200LT, 2000 R1100RT, & 1975 R90/6

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