1997 R1100RT, 60K Miles, Harsh 1-2 Upshift, 2nd comes out of gear, once and awhile.

I should start by saying that I might have two weeks of riding left, we are seeing snow already. Any suggestions I get here will be undertaken during the winter, another long winter.

The last two weeks, ambient temperatures have dropped to needing full gear and careful riding. Since the drop in temperatures, my 1997 R1100RT, 60K Miles, has started being cranky during up-shift from 1st to 2nd. There has been a noticeable "clash". The last few days, it has "popped" out of second gear on deceleration.

It's just a transmission, nothing complicated, likely the dog for 2nd gear is a bit worn out or I have too much main shaft end play. That would be the usual explanation to those symptoms in any transmission.

Here is where it gets complicated:

I searched the forums looking for my symptoms in expectation that it might be problematic to this particular model of bike/transmission. What I found was a universal complaint of transmission problems being caused by lack of the clutch sliding on the input shaft. Sticky splines so to speak. I am due for doing a spline lube.

My problem, I can't see why sticking splines would cause such a specific complaint and not a broader one as in "clash" of every gear and "popping" out of any gear regardless of cruise, acceleration, or deceleration.

Weigh ins here will be sincerely appreciated but I can't promise that I won't try to find some humor and fun in your posts. Did I mention that I have a very long winter ahead and I use the time to find fun and drink beer?

dieselyoda said:

I should start by saying that I might have two weeks of riding left, we are seeing snow already. Any suggestions I get here will be undertaken during the winter, another long winter.

The last two weeks, ambient temperatures have dropped to needing full gear and careful riding. Since the drop in temperatures, my 1997 R1100RT, 60K Miles, has started being cranky during up-shift from 1st to 2nd. There has been a noticeable "clash". The last few days, it has "popped" out of second gear on deceleration.

It's just a transmission, nothing complicated, likely the dog for 2nd gear is a bit worn out or I have too much main shaft end play. That would be the usual explanation to those symptoms in any transmission.

Here is where it gets complicated:

I searched the forums looking for my symptoms in expectation that it might be problematic to this particular model of bike/transmission. What I found was a universal complaint of transmission problems being caused by lack of the clutch sliding on the input shaft. Sticky splines so to speak. I am due for doing a spline lube.

My problem, I can't see why sticking splines would cause such a specific complaint and not a broader one as in "clash" of every gear and "popping" out of any gear regardless of cruise, acceleration, or deceleration.

Weigh ins here will be sincerely appreciated but I can't promise that I won't try to find some humor and fun in your posts. Did I mention that I have a very long winter ahead and I use the time to find fun and drink beer?

Click to expand...

Dry splines are most likely to impair downshifts rather than upshifts. The reason is the clutch disk needs to slide a little bit when the pressure plate releases so the disk isn't dragging on the clutch cover. If it drags on the clutch cover the transmission continues to have some torque from the engine applied and shifting is difficult. As I said, it impairs down shifts mostly but I wouldn't rule out rough upshifts in the lower gears.

I get hanging clutches, but this problem?

I've had the OD of the splines on an input shaft wear into the ID of a clutch plate or in the case of a truck, both clutch plates. I've even seen dual mass clutches jam the torsion plate, they always caused gear clash in all gears and some cases, melted the synchros but so far, everything I have read on the BMWMOA forums says my problem is sticking clutch splines. I can't see it with my complaint.

I'm looking to get smarter here by being proven I'm wrong.

In your posts you've been clear that keeping it simple is always good. I tend to agree. When things start to feel sticky when I shifty the first thing I check is the state of lubrication on the for the shift lever bushings and the ball joints of the shift selctor rod. If they don't move freely... grease em up before you dig any further.

Reason I mention this is mine got hard to shift and this whole mechanism was bone dry. Like metal on metal bone dry. Grease in the bushing, molykote in the ball joints fixed it right up.

This is not the "typical dry splines" issue.
Several bikes ago, I also had a 97 RT. Since delivery on Day One, it was just not feeling "right" when shifting between second and third, either up or down. My dealer (Marty's) changed the trans oil at the first service (~600 miles). No change. At 2000 miles, they tried a different oil (non-BMW). No change. As the bike aged, it only got worse. Another different oil again made no difference. By about 20K miles, not only were these shifts grinding and clunking, but shifting up to 3rd would sometimes cause an outright bounce-back and rejection of the shift, resulting in a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd.
The transmission was replaced under warranty.
I've read a few times, in this forum, that the 96-97 trannies were a poor lot...
Of course, the factory never actually told Marty's what the root cause was.

Now I have some concerns.

happy wanderer said:

In your posts you've been clear that keeping it simple is always good. I tend to agree. When things start to feel sticky when I shifty the first thing I check is the state of lubrication on the for the shift lever bushings and the ball joints of the shift selctor rod. If they don't move freely... grease em up before you dig any further.

Reason I mention this is mine got hard to shift and this whole mechanism was bone dry. Like metal on metal bone dry. Grease in the bushing, molykote in the ball joints fixed it right up.

Click to expand...

Thank you Happy Wanderer, I totally forgot about the most basic, simple mechanism. I took it apart this morning, it looked good. I used some heavy moly paste grease from Mevotech. It's the consistency of petroleum jelly. The shifter is definitely smoother but first to second, you need to snap your foot upwards and you hear a definite clash.

Downshift from third to second is good and it doesn't pop out of gear then. I rarely downshift second to first. The bike is usually at a stand still when I do that as it has enough horsepower to carry it through low speeds so I seem to stay in second a great amount of time in the city at very low speeds.

Reading Pauls1150 comments have me wondering. If this is an inherent problem to these transmissions, what is the problem? Pauls1150 is only one comment about inherent problems and seems to me I have read that before.

Maybe if someone was to match my riding style, I might find out I don't have a problem at all? Wouldn't that be the simplest and best answer?

dieselyoda said:

Thank you Happy Wanderer, I totally forgot about the most basic, simple mechanism. I took it apart this morning, it looked good. I used some heavy moly paste grease from Mevotech. It's the consistency of petroleum jelly. The shifter is definitely smoother but first to second, you need to snap your foot upwards and you hear a definite clash.

Downshift from third to second is good and it doesn't pop out of gear then. I rarely downshift second to first. The bike is usually at a stand still when I do that as it has enough horsepower to carry it through low speeds so I seem to stay in second a great amount of time in the city at very low speeds.

Reading Pauls1150 comments have me wondering. If this is an inherent problem to these transmissions, what is the problem? Pauls1150 is only one comment about inherent problems and seems to me I have read that before.

Maybe if someone was to match my riding style, I might find out I don't have a problem at all? Wouldn't that be the simplest and best answer?

Click to expand...

Do you slightly preload the shifter before pulling in the clutch?

I'm not sure, good question.

GSAddict said:

Do you slightly preload the shifter before pulling in the clutch?

Click to expand...

That's a really good question. I am going out on Sunday if the weather is good and I will pay attention. When I report back, it will be interesting to get your comments.

"...Since the drop in temperatures..."

That might be a clue. Perhaps the higher viscosity at low temperatures added to wear or other problems puts the problem over the edge. Not that I would dream of using a fifty cent solution in reducing the viscosity when a two thousand dollar transmission tear-down is indicated....

I'm not pre-loading second gear up-shift.

I looked at my habits, I'm not pre-loading the up-shift to second. I tried a bit of pre-load, way worse clash. I also tried shifting at lower RPM, about 2400, shifts nice bit the engine is working pretty hard to climb from there. At higher RPM, above 4200, won't go at all.

This makes me wonder about the viscosity of the oil from GKman's comments. I am thinking the viscosity of the oil in the rear end. The tranny oil should be warm after the first few miles. If the oil in the diff is thick, I wonder if it's not like riding the rear brake a bit.

I know in trucks, the tandems like to be heated up before the truck shifts nice but the temperatures are way colder when that occurs.

At this point, it's looking like I'm rebuilding the tranny.

dieselyoda said:

At this point, it's looking like I'm rebuilding the tranny.

Click to expand...

Aaack!

Did I miss someone else suggesting?:

Change the transmission oil to fresh Mobil1 70w90 first.

I'm not a transmission mechanic but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm thinking purely from position of logic...If this is a new issue you've never before experienced my guess is that a fluid change will not help and that you're going to be getting your hands dirty over the winter.

If I had more time left in the riding season.

It was just too cold for me to ride today. I didn't feel all that enthused about putting on layers of clothing just for a quick tear. That pretty much means that I need to live with my problem until I can get my hands dirty. I can't see oil in the tranny deteriorating after 10,000 miles. I used Castrol Syntec 75W90 and if it breaks down that fast, I should have noticed it in other vehicles as well. Mobil 1, gear or engine oil has always proven to be a great product for me but the dealer here is very expensive and brings in specific stock only.

It looks like I will need a few evenings at a Holiday Inn Express and tear into this problem.

I am still looking for a reason why they say these trannys are problematic. If stuff didn't blow up, I would never have earned a living fixing them.

dieselyoda said:

I can't see oil in the tranny deteriorating after 10,000 miles. I used Castrol Syntec 75W90

Click to expand...

yup.

[QUOTE
I've read a few times, in this forum, that the 96-97 trannies were a poor lot...[/QUOTE]

I have a 96 1100RT and have done a lot of reading on this issue, although not much on it lately. I'm certainly not any expert on transmissions at this point, but I too doubt that changing the fluid, or preloading the clutch is the heart of the problem. From my reading is seemed that these year bikes had the M94 transmissions, which indeed had several problems. There is a lot of information on this issue on this site. Fortunately for me the previous owner of my bike was really good about taking care of the bike. It must have developed transmission problems, and he ended up sending the transmission to Anton Largiader for a total rebuild. I have the receipt for the work done and I believe one thing was "beveling the gears". It was around $1200 for the work. Pretty expensive at this point for a bike as old as mine, or yours, is now. But, on the very positive side, I never worry about transmission problems. I would tackle most repair jobs on my bike, but I doubt the transmission would be one of them. That seems to require a healthy amount of knowledge, special tools, and knowing what expensive part to replace/alter. I would suggest calling Anton and getting his professional opinion. He seems to be the expert on working on these transmissions. His website is full of information. A used transmission from someone like Beemer Boneyard might be the most practical. You could use the M97 transmission, a direct replacement, I believe, which is supposed to be much better.

As jconway states, some good info on what might be the source of your trouble right here:

http://www.largiader.com/tech/oiltrans/

Sort of a good news/bad news situation for some 1100 owners.

Thank you, big help.

It's snowing again today. I'm think less about riding today and more about my sorely neglected snowblower.

The big question, fix the bike or fix the snowblower? Then again, I can always wait until there is enough snow and my neighbor will feel sorry for me and do my driveway with his snowblower.

That Anton guy, I guess he doesn't have a snowblower because his website is full of great Beemer stuff.

Probably helps to live down south. I doubt there is much need for snowblowers in Virginia. Given that you live in Winterpeg it's got to be the snowblower first. Snow's flying already so you can take your time with the tranny. Hopefully it's worn shift dogs as described on Anton's site and not something more sinister. Dropping in a replacement M97 is always an option as suggested above. Prices on our 1100s have come down quite a bit so hopefully the used parts have too. Good luck with it.

r1100rt

Just for what it's worth, this is directed toward my fellow old fart curmudgeons riding 1100's, I don't recommend doing searches like "6 speed tranny swap" out in the general web.

I don't know what it is but I'm pretty sure I don't want any.

Thanks for that.

scott.lambert said:

Just for what it's worth, this is directed toward my fellow old fart curmudgeons riding 1100's, I don't recommend doing searches like "6 speed tranny swap" out in the general web.

I don't know what it is but I'm pretty sure I don't want any.

Click to expand...

I pondered the 6 speed tranny swap that would also require the hydraulic clutch. By the time I bought the hardware, it looked like too much money for what it's worth.

Rebuilding it should be fun and I've certainly done my fair share of tranny builds.

Still though, never had any of the issues with my airheads that come with the latest batch of Beemers. My buddies R1200RT spent more time in the shop this summer than on the road and all I could comment was, "sell it before warranty expires".