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Starter or Battery 2004 R1150RT

roger 04 rt

New member
I've been working my way through trying to figure out why my '04RT has gotten progressively slower starting over the past year--on the first cold start of the day. I've tested every aspect of the fuel system from the strainer to the injectors and verified the HES. The battery seems fine and the starter turns over quickly (I think since I've got no comparison). Throttle bodies are balanced and it idles well.

With two new stick coils (and the replacement of all four plugs), my '04RT is running great. And it starts fine ... other than that first start of the day, which takes 4-5 seconds.

Yesterday I decided to take some data on the first start with the GS-911 via bluetooth to my phone. With it connected to the 911, the samples are logged every half second (400 mS) versus every second (800 mS) to the PC i usually use, nearly twice as fast.

Looking at the battery voltage in the log, here's what I saw:

12.19 V, 0 rpm
12.11, 0
12.11, 0
6.82, 0
10.24, 350 rpm
10.89, 350
10.73, 200 rpm
11.05, 1400
13.73, 1500

My battery appears to be in good health (a one year old PC680, it will crank the bike for a long time with a bright headlight) and the starter seems to turn over fine. But looking at the voltage dip I decided to try jumping from my car with its motor running.

This morning I pulled the left-side panel, got good jumper connections all around--ground to the bike's battery and +12V to the starter lug. Set up logging and pressed the starter button ... er, er, vroom. According to the log (and my ears) the bike started in 1 second.

Here was the voltage log:
13.98 V, 0 rpm
9.99, 0
11.46, 300
11.95, 1350
13.9, 1400
14.06, 1450

Last winter, I pulled my starter because of a high drain on the battery and very hard starting every so often. The planetary gear cover had fallen onto the armature. Based on the test today, I'm leaning toward replacing the starter. My reasoning is the cables and connections look good, and even with the jumper cable to the starter lug the voltage dipped from 14V to 10V.

I'm thinking that without the jumper cable connected, the dip to 7-9 volts when the starter is pressed is upsetting the Motronic, or coils, or injectors.

Starter or battery, which do you think?
RB
 
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Hi Roger, I think you will find that a dip to 9.2 volts won't let the bike start- or at least that is what I have found. I went looking for one of my fav-o-rite get me out of a jam the easy way tools to measure problems and here it is....and apparently a thing of the past.

snaonammeterset001.jpg


it's (or was) a great way to check these kind of problems, you just rest it on the wire in question and the draw was measured.
In your case, if you did have one, you could compare to another bike and help you with amperage draw info.
Gary
 
Hi Gary, That's a blast from the past. I don't have one which leaves me stuck trying to deduce what's wrong.

Since my starter is original and had the planetary gear cover arcing on the armature I'm tempted to replace it, and then my relatively new battery if needed. RB
 
I can't say for sure about the battery or starter, but a one year old battery "should" be good. I had an 04 R1150RS starter fail, seemed like bad battery symptoms and wasn't. Two known weak points on the vaelo starter. the magnets which is a well documented problem. There is another problem that isn't talked about much. The bendix has a small gears inclosed with a thin metal plate. This plate comes loose and intermittently shorts out the armature.











if it's the magnets that are loose I may still have the old housing w/ magnets still in place.
 
I've been working my way through trying to figure out why my '04RT has gotten progressively slower starting over the past year--on the first cold start of the day. I've tested every aspect of the fuel system from the strainer to the injectors and verified the HES. The battery seems fine and the starter turns over quickly (I think since I've got no comparison). Throttle bodies are balanced and it idles well.

With two new stick coils (and the replacement of all four plugs), my '04RT is running like great. And it starts fine ... other than that first start of the day, which takes 4-5 seconds.

Yesterday I decided to take some data on the first start with the GS-911 via bluetooth to my phone. With it connected to the 911, the samples are logged every half second (400 mS) versus every second (800 mS) to the PC i usually use, nearly twice as fast.

Looking at the battery voltage in the log, here's what I saw:

12.19 V, 0 rpm
12.11, 0
12.11, 0
6.82, 0
10.24, 350 rpm
10.89, 350
10.73, 200 rpm
11.05, 1400
13.73, 1500

My battery appears to be in good health (a one year old PC680, it will crank the bike for a long time with a bright headlight) and the starter seems to turn over fine. But looking at the voltage dip I decided to try jumping from my car with its motor running.

This morning I pulled the left-side panel, got good jumper connections all around--ground to the bike's battery and +12V to the starter lug. Set up logging and pressed the starter button ... er, er, vroom. According to the log (and my ears) the bike started in 1 second.

Here was the voltage log:
13.98 V, 0 rpm
9.99, 0
11.46, 300
11.95, 1350
13.9, 1400
14.06, 1450

Last winter, I pulled my starter because of a high drain on the battery and very hard starting every so often. The planetary gear cover had fallen onto the armature. Based on the test today, I'm leaning toward replacing the starter. My reasoning is the cables and connections look good, and even with the jumper cable to the starter lug the voltage dipped from 14V to 10V.

I'm thinking that without the jumper cable connected, the dip to 7-9 volts when the starter is pressed is upsetting the Motronic, or coils, or injectors.

Starter or battery, which do you think?
RB

Do an equalize charge on the Odyssey of 14.9v - 15v for at least 8-10 hours.
Then test again. You will be surprised.
I am betting that your "new" battery is not fully charged.
The Motronic does not operate well below 9.5v
The problem with AGM's is they want (and need) a higher charge voltage than 14.0v which is what Oilhead alternators typically put out.
I have seen this problem on a few bikes now.
My solution on my own machine is I modified the voltage regulator to charge @ 14.7v years ago and never had any further issues.
I love Odyssey batteries and recommend them. The catch is they must be periodically equalized (with a 5-10A charger) to maintain peak capacity in our application.
This was all confirmed by one of the engineers at Odyssey when I had this problem myself. Their site has a lot of engineering data confirming the requirements.
My machine (1150GS) always starts within 2 seconds.
 
I can't say for sure about the battery or starter, but a one year old battery "should" be good. I had an 04 R1150RS starter fail, seemed like bad battery symptoms and wasn't. Two known weak points on the vaelo starter. the magnets which is a well documented problem. There is another problem that isn't talked about much. The bendix has a small gears inclosed with a thin metal plate. This plate comes loose and intermittently shorts out the armature.

if it's the magnets that are loose I may still have the old housing w/ magnets still in place.


Thank you. This is just how my starter looked in February when I opened it. Almost exactly. I put things back where they belonged, magnets were good.

At the moment, it seems like the starter spins fine but it may be drawing a lot of current, not sure.

Do an equalize charge on the Odyssey of 14.9v - 15v for at least 8-10 hours.
Then test again. You will be surprised.
I am betting that your "new" battery is not fully charged.
The Motronic does not operate well below 9.5v
The problem with AGM's is they want (and need) a higher charge voltage than 14.0v which is what Oilhead alternators typically put out.
I have seen this problem on a few bikes now.
My solution on my own machine is I modified the voltage regulator to charge @ 14.7v years ago and never had any further issues.
I love Odyssey batteries and recommend them. The catch is they must be periodically equalized (with a 5-10A charger) to maintain peak capacity in our application.
This was all confirmed by one of the engineers at Odyssey when I had this problem myself. Their site has a lot of engineering data confirming the requirements.
My machine (1150GS) always starts within 2 seconds.

GS, Thanks. It seems like the condition came on slowly, not positive. After 16 hours my voltage is 12.93. So is this a situation where the internal resistance of the battery increases?

I'm going to look into this. As good as the PC680 is if it takes this kind of coddling, I'm not sure it is worth it. RB
 
Starter or battery, which do you think?

RB

I'd get a 500A carbon pile load tester from Harbor Freight and do a load test on a fully charged battery. They're are on sale now and then (like right now) for $55. You won't have to guess the next time you have a battery or starting issue.

The load test is a test of a battery's internal resistance.

Also get a 200A shunt off eBay. Along with some cables and a multimeter with Max or Peak Hold, you can take a current draw measurement of your starter in action.

Of course another way would be to use another battery on loan to you and not a car battery that has gobs more CCA which might overshadow a starter issue.

Your alternator should be putting out 14.0 to 14.2V off idle.
 
Gsaddict pointed me to pc680 technical data. Apparently the odyssey batteries are supposed to be charged at a MINIMUM of 6/7 amps at 14.2-15.0 volts.

I've looked through all my logs and the regulator never gets to 14.2 volts and is usually between 13.7 and 14.1. My charger, a battery tender jr., for trickle charge doesn't put out much current.

After a day and a half of rest, the voltage is 12.9v that seems okay.

With the headlight low beam on the voltage drops to and stays at 12.1 volts for 15 minutes.

Could my continual charging of the battery for a year and a half at lower than spec have affected the battery such that it drops to 7v during starting?
RB
 
Gsaddict pointed me to pc680 technical data. Apparently the odyssey batteries are supposed to be charged at a MINIMUM of 6/7 amps at 14.2-15.0 volts.

I've looked through all my logs and the regulator never gets to 14.2 volts and is usually between 13.7 and 14.1. My charger, a battery tender jr., for trickle charge doesn't put out much current.

After a day and a half of rest, the voltage is 12.9v that seems okay.

With the headlight low beam on the voltage drops to and stays at 12.1 volts for 15 minutes.

Could my continual charging of the battery for a year and a half at lower than spec have affected the battery such that it drops to 7v during starting?
RB


Yes, it can. Look up "recovery charge"
Charge with a power supply that can supply 17.5v current limited to .05C (950 ma) for 24hrs.
Discharge the battery
Repeat recovery charge.
Battery will be back to normal capacity.
I have brought back a few that way now.
 
I've been looking at battery chargers. Where would I get the PS that would do the recovery charge?

How did you alter your vreg to boost your alternators output?
 
Here is a heartwarming thought from Odyssey:

ODYSSEY batteries that have been operated over a prolonged period of time and have not routinely been charged back to near or full charge will have developed sulfated oxide and can be more difficult to recover. In some cases, if the sulfation condition is well developed especially over time, it may not be possible to achieve full capacity. This condition is not a warrantable claim as it is not the result of a factory manufacturing defect but abuse or neglect in the application.

Sounds like mine ...
 
I've been looking at battery chargers. Where would I get the PS that would do the recovery charge?

How did you alter your vreg to boost your alternators output?
1) Any variable DC power supply that can be set to 17+ volts will do the job. Then use a LM 317 v regulator configured in current limit mode to .950A
I originally went thru this process with a PC680 @ 52% capacity. I managed to get it back to over 85% by recovery charging and then discharging at capacity.
3 of those did it.
2) You will need to pull the alternator and remove the regulator.
http://s583.photobucket.com/user/GS...d 14 7v regulator mod?sort=4&start=all&page=1

Note: if you use a trickle charger that is not set for AGM batteries there is a good chance that you will cause sulfation by floating at too low a voltage.
The engineer at Odyssey informed me of this originally. He said that disconnecting the battery over long periods of non use (per instructions that come with the battery) is far better that leaving on a trickle charger especially if the float voltage is too low. His recommendation for a correct float voltage is 13.85v

You are welcome to phone me to discuss further if you wish.
 
GSA, I don't have an account with them so I haven't looked at the picture yet. Will do soon. Will give you a call this week.

Today
Since I couldn't do much today I ran a quick test to see what was being effected by the low battery voltage during cranking (maybe everything), leading to the slow lean first start of the day.

I powered the Motronic and circuits from a second battery, but not the pump and injectors. Same slow, lean first start.

Since I previously measured the fuel pressure during starting, I think I've narrowed it down to the injectors and fuel pump which are being affected by voltage. I will power separately tomorrow. My money is on the injectors ... now ... low voltage will make the open slower and squirt less fuel.

As to battery or starter as the voltage dip culprit, I didn't make much progress today but got many good inputs on the PC680 charging requirements.
RB
 
I always seem to sound like a smartass, but if it were me,

Anytime I have ever had a complaint of a slow starting situation, you do a current draw on a fully charged battery, if good, do a current draw while cranking and if in doubt, voltage drop between battery and starter.

In 35 years of being a paid wrench, I have had bad batteries, bad starters, bad cables and a few times, really bad engine bearings. I once had an apprentice go to put his third starter on an engine when I stopped him and asked him if he did those tests. He said he did but didn't know what the data meant. Good batteries, excessive current draw twice, no voltage drop, engine was seized.

It took me longer to use "spell correction" and write this post than it does to do those tests.

Yes, I know, I sound like a smart ass know-it-all again. Sorry.................
 
There was a post here by Roger04rt an hour ago?


Where did that post go?

The answer would have been great. To the best of my knowledge, integral voltage regulators are totally electronic and they are what they are.

I had hoped to learn something new. (is that "hoped" as in hope or "hopped" as in "pay attention my little bunny friend"?)

With integral voltage regulators in my career, the best you could do was full field the alternator to see the maximum voltage. Other than the smell of your fingers and alternator burning, it was the only way I ever learned to determine whether it was the alternator or the regulator at fault for poor voltage and amperage.

Could we get that answer back please?
 
...
In 35 years of being a paid wrench, I have had bad batteries, bad starters, bad cables and a few times, really bad engine bearings. I once had an apprentice go to put his third starter on an engine when I stopped him and asked him if he did those tests. He said he did but didn't know what the data meant. Good batteries, excessive current draw twice, no voltage drop, engine was seized.

It took me longer to use "spell correction" and write this post than it does to do those tests.

...

So, with 35 years of instinct under your belt, since I have none of the tools you mentioned, is it starter or battery causing the voltage dip? And since the symptoms are the headlights are bright and the starter spins quickly, which system is being affected by the starter or alternator causing the lean, first 29 seconds, on the first start of the day?

When you have 35 years of spell check under your belt these posts will take much less time than your tests. Stay with it man!

BTW, 45 years ago my two jobs were: morning/night, dairy-barn gutter-shoveler, and: day-job, greasy handed auto mechanic. The two smells were a lot to bring home at night. Because of the dairy-barn job I don't like to get a lot of what I was shoveling then, now.

Where did that post go? ...

Could we get that answer back please?

The link I referenced is locked. Here is another thread I found using GOOGLE search by a guy whose handle is mouthfullofflake: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22503137&postcount=22
 
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Test #1
Standalone bike, 5.37V drop.

*12.19 V, 0 rpm
12.11, 0
12.11, 0
*6.82, 0
10.24, 350 rpm
10.89, 350
10.73, 200 rpm
11.05, 1400
13.73, 1500

Test #2
Jumped from the running car, ground to the bike's battery and +12V to the starter lug
3.99V drop.

*13.98 V, 0 rpm
*9.99, 0
11.46, 300
11.95, 1350
13.9, 1400
14.06, 1450


Starter or battery, which do you think?
RB

Test #2 eliminates voltage drop in the connections and cable from bike Battery(+) to the starter.
As well, it adds a huge secondary current source, yet we still see a 3.99V drop.

For that reason, I say the starter is drawing too much current.

PS: I love the way you go about collecting data.
 
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