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Airhead wheels

Darryl--I suspect that buying the BMW outside spoke hole rims won't work for a conversion--the geometry at the hub won't match up. But you might put that proposition to the guys at Woody's.
 
"I think the snowflake wheels are perfect candidates for this switch."


LOL! if that was an answer to me? The OP....I'll say one more time....I DO NOT want snowflakes :nono....I am after wire spoke tubeless wheel/rim/tires...combination...:clap


BUT!!...speaking {of} snowflakes, I did use tubeless tires on them, on an 81 RS. several sets, adding up to [I believe] 56000+/- miles. And had no problems.

No, I wasn't referring to your desire not to have Snowflake wheels! In fact, I hadn't even seen that comment until just now. My previous remarks were simply an observation. I think that each has his own likes/dislikes. I used to have spoked wheel with steel rim on my /2, and then spoked wheels with alloy rims on my /6. But, I personally prefer the Snowflakes, and am considering myself converting them to tubeless (w/o the tube), but am not sure it is worth the effort.


But I am curious. Why go tubeless rims at all? What would be the benefit other than saving about $14 at a tire change?

Just curious!
 
No, I wasn't referring to your desire not to have Snowflake wheels! In fact, I hadn't even seen that comment until just now. My previous remarks were simply an observation. I think that each has his own likes/dislikes. I used to have spoked wheel with steel rim on my /2, and then spoked wheels with alloy rims on my /6. But, I personally prefer the Snowflakes, and am considering myself converting them to tubeless (w/o the tube), but am not sure it is worth the effort.


But I am curious. Why go tubeless rims at all? What would be the benefit other than saving about $14 at a tire change?

Just curious!

A benefit would be you could plug a puncture with the tire on the bike rather than removing the wheel, removing the tire, removing the tube, replacing the tube and remounting the wheel.

IMHO no more handsome wheel has ever graced a motorcycle than the snowflake.
 
No, I wasn't referring to your desire not to have Snowflake wheels! In fact, I hadn't even seen that comment until just now. My previous remarks were simply an observation. I think that each has his own likes/dislikes. I used to have spoked wheel with steel rim on my /2, and then spoked wheels with alloy rims on my /6. But, I personally prefer the Snowflakes, and am considering myself converting them to tubeless (w/o the tube), but am not sure it is worth the effort.


But I am curious. Why go tubeless rims at all? What would be the benefit other than saving about $14 at a tire change?

Just curious!



well,what Bob,M said + tubeless tires run cooler..not that, that is a big deal for street riding. But also they deflate at a slower rate in the case of a puncture. Might buy ya precious seconds in that scenario ?

And yes Too Bob,M I like the snowflakes as well, I just want a different look, and "spokes" are more fitting to a vintage / nostalgia bike.....{JMO}
 
A benefit would be you could plug a puncture with the tire on the bike rather than removing the wheel, removing the tire, removing the tube, replacing the tube and remounting the wheel.

IMHO no more handsome wheel has ever graced a motorcycle than the snowflake.

Ironically, 25 years ago, I built a trailer from scratch to pull behind my then spoked /6. I actually purchased snowflake wheels for it before I knew anything about BMW snowflakes. I sold that bike because my kids were little, and when I rode everyday to work, I would have about 2 close calls per week. I sold because I didn't want the kids to grow up without a Dad.

I just hung the trailer up in my garage from the ceiling.

About 6 months ago, I purchased this /7 and the wheels on the bike are very close in design to the wheels on the trailer. Looks like I made the trailer to match!

I like the Snowflakes too.
 
Wow. You really are full of yourself.

The person I discussed this with was a man who worked at a very large motorcycle shop that sold about 10 brands of motorcycles and had changed hundreds and hundreds of tires, both tube-type and tubeless. How many have you changed?

Also how do you account for the fact that running a tubeless tire on a tube-type rim with no tube HAS been successfully done?

I just would bet that again, you have NO experience with this, but just conjecture.

Well, you're really poorly educated.

Everone knows that manufacturers are cheap but why don't you wonder why BMW went to all the trouble of sending these bikes from the factory with tubes in them when all they had to do was request the manufacturer drill the valve stem hole a little larger and then they could eliminate all the expense of buying and installing tubes and then just use tubeless tires? No, they didn't do it because the rest of the wheel does not meet industry standards for what constitutes a tubeless wheel.

One thing that separates the educated from the not is an understanding of statistics. The fact there are a few samples of folks that have gotten away with something doesn't prove that sort of shade-tree engineering correct. To think having "changed lots of tires" makes one an engineering expert is laughable. Sad, actually. But, if you're not, how would you know?

Of course, if you could read, you'd note I've never said running tubeless tires tubeless on snowflake wheels is impossible--I've only said the wheels don't meet industry standards for doing this and you won't find a wheel manufacturer or tire manufacturer that will approve the process.

And I do understand the tubeless tire is less likely to suffer massive deflation compared to a tire with a tube. Yet, I'd still run them with tubes simply because I don't suffer the delusion I'm smarter than the designers and industry standard setters and because the instructions from the tire manufacturer tell me to.

The fact you're a legend in your own mind is of little consequence. Owning a motorcycle makes nobody a genius, but there sure are lots with that delusion. Glad you're not in aviation.
 
Well, you're really poorly educated.

Everone knows that manufacturers are cheap but why don't you wonder why BMW went to all the trouble of sending these bikes from the factory with tubes in them when all they had to do was request the manufacturer drill the valve stem hole a little larger and then they could eliminate all the expense of buying and installing tubes and then just use tubeless tires? No, they didn't do it because the rest of the wheel does not meet industry standards for what constitutes a tubeless wheel.

One thing that separates the educated from the not is an understanding of statistics. The fact there are a few samples of folks that have gotten away with something doesn't prove that sort of shade-tree engineering correct. To think having "changed lots of tires" makes one an engineering expert is laughable. Sad, actually. But, if you're not, how would you know?

Of course, if you could read, you'd note I've never said running tubeless tires tubeless on snowflake wheels is impossible--I've only said the wheels don't meet industry standards for doing this and you won't find a wheel manufacturer or tire manufacturer that will approve the process.

And I do understand the tubeless tire is less likely to suffer massive deflation compared to a tire with a tube. Yet, I'd still run them with tubes simply because I don't suffer the delusion I'm smarter than the designers and industry standard setters and because the instructions from the tire manufacturer tell me to.

The fact you're a legend in your own mind is of little consequence. Owning a motorcycle makes nobody a genius, but there sure are lots with that delusion. Glad you're not in aviation.


Well, I am just as educated as you, and there are literally thousands of those "shade-tree" mechanics out there.

You REALLY are full of yourself! Talk about arrogant?

Maybe you need some help?

To answer your question about why BMW engineers went to all that trouble to use tubes? It is because these older bikes preceded the "tubeless" generation when tubeless got popular. Hardly anything was tubeless at that time - esp. motorcycles!

I still question your first contention that the profile of a tubeless rim is that much different. Show me the technical data and back up with pics.

Where is your data? Are we to believe YOU when there are literally hundreds of those who have converted with NO problems and have run hundreds of thousands of miles? Guess your education should be questioned. It works!
 
As I read back through the whole thread, YOU are the only one who said it couldn't be done. Yet many others said it worked and one suggested that there is a company specializing in sealing older spoked rims to do it.

Guess you just can't accept defeat.
 
As I read back through the whole thread, YOU are the only one who said it couldn't be done. Yet many others said it worked and one suggested that there is a company specializing in sealing older spoked rims to do it.

Not sure what you mean by "it couldn't be done". Probably you're talking about the idea of newer tubless-style rims on an older Airhead. I myself thought there wasn't a way to do that for various reasons...an other reason were suggested.

But now I see that if one really wants to work for it, it might be possible. I agree with Kent...at what cost and will there be an affect on the handling of the bike. But I suppose it's worth an experiment. :dunno

I hear a lot about how people have run snowflakes with out tubes. It is a fact that the rim design for tubeless tires and tube-type tires are different...and the snowflake doesn't fall into the tubeless tire category. Therefore, it shouldn't be done. People do it, haven't had a problem (dare I say yet! ;) ) but that doesn't make it right or totally safe. There are enough issues with tubes, tires, etc., that for me, I would not want to add another variable that could put me on the ground. That's my choice...but the rims are not correct for running tubeless...that's a fact.
 
Modern Tubeless Spoked Rims

Is it possible to buy just the BMW rim and spoke kit that has the spokes on the outside?
Then have it laced to the hubs on your bike.

This is a question for which I like to hear an answer. Does anyone manufacture tubeless rims of the correct diameter, width and number of spokes that could be laced to stock hubs? If so, has anyone built up a such a a set of wheels for their Airhead?
 
Cross-spoke rims of a useful width are used by BMW in 17", 18", 19" and 21". The problem is that the spoke angle is much greater and the hub drilling won't match. Well, that's ONE problem. Might be others. But these problems are solvable by wheel building experts like Buchanan's and Woody's.
 
Not sure what you mean by "it couldn't be done". Probably you're talking about the idea of newer tubless-style rims on an older Airhead. I myself thought there wasn't a way to do that for various reasons...an other reason were suggested.

But now I see that if one really wants to work for it, it might be possible. I agree with Kent...at what cost and will there be an affect on the handling of the bike. But I suppose it's worth an experiment. :dunno

I hear a lot about how people have run snowflakes with out tubes. It is a fact that the rim design for tubeless tires and tube-type tires are different...and the snowflake doesn't fall into the tubeless tire category. Therefore, it shouldn't be done. People do it, haven't had a problem (dare I say yet! ;) ) but that doesn't make it right or totally safe. There are enough issues with tubes, tires, etc., that for me, I would not want to add another variable that could put me on the ground. That's my choice...but the rims are not correct for running tubeless...that's a fact.

Tell me EXACTLY what is the difference?

I am not saying that there isn't a difference - one example: the density of the rim material and ability to hold pressure. But this has been done by so many for so long that one can't argue that it has worked.

Do y have ANY examples of it working and THEN failing?

The fact is, is that often things are engineered for one purpose but later can be perfectly adequate to serve another - happens all the time - in virtually all industries.

Show me the FACTS. If it has been done successfully then it CAN be done.
 
Show me the FACTS. If it has been done successfully then it CAN be done.

Just because it has been done, doesn't mean that it was designed for either/or or that that it is a totally safe thing to do. Snowbum has a good discussion about the rim shapes here, in addition to all his caveats.

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/section6.htm

Even he says there is no 100% clear-cut answer. But I contend why introduce an possible variation that is not in your favor?? On the plus side, it seems to be said that punctions from a tubeless situation end up being slower leaks but possibly a faster leak with the tube installed. On the negative side, if you get to a low air situation on a tubeless, bead retention is going to be an issue.

And we're not the only ones having this discussion:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786130

Basically, it can be done, not recommended by the manufacturer, there's no definitive answer...it ends up being a personal decision.
 
Just because it has been done, doesn't mean that it was designed for either/or or that that it is a totally safe thing to do.

Even he says there is no 100% clear-cut answer. But I contend why introduce an possible variation that is not in your favor?? On the plus side, it seems to be said that punctions from a tubeless situation end up being slower leaks but possibly a faster leak with the tube installed. On the negative side, if you get to a low air situation on a tubeless, bead retention is going to be an issue.

And we're not the only ones having this discussion:

Basically, it can be done, not recommended by the manufacturer, there's no definitive answer...it ends up being a personal decision.

What I object to is the immediate answer by someone who cites "engineers didn't design it that way" and THEN assume (or state) that it can't be done.

This thread has shown that it CAN be done and done successfully and safely.

I agree that one is on his own, but on a 35 year old motorcycle, ANY change is "on your own."

I personally wouldn't do it as it seems to me to be a lot of work for very little benefit.

I, having worked as an engineer (though honestly I do not have an engineering degree - just years of design experience) have seen literally hundreds of "designed" applications that later COULD be used for some other purpose perfectly OK, but some older "engineer" would say "it can't be done" as it wasn't designed for that!

I personally believe that the design of the bead profile of the tire has probably more to do with any hesitation in trying the conversion than anything, and that on the new tubeless tires is (as I had examined a month or so ago) adequate (in my estimation) to do a "safe" and "workable" job on the older non-tubeless rims. The other main issue, I think, would be the porosity of the rim material (and especially the spoked rims where the spokes go through) that could allow air leakage, but that in terms of safety would probably be a "leak" that would be over a long period of time, allowing the owner to keep the pressure up, and check regularly. But even that can be overcome with the newer epoxies, sealers, etc.

As much as I LOVE the BMW Motorcycle world, there are literally dozens of BMW designs that just weren't too good and had to be re-done - even some that BMW would not acknowledge.

The Snowflake front rim is an example.

The first electronic ignitions on the airheads was really problematic as I understand it.

And the list can go on and on.

I just object to someone jumping on a "neophyte" and giving dogmatic answers without backing up. If one cites "engineering" issues, then he/she should be able to back them up on a "engineering" level.

I love Snowbum and he has a wealth of collected information gleaned from years of experience, but even he (though on this particular issue doesn't seem to be that much against converting to tubeless) is not an engineer. He is one I respect very much though.

For example, yesterday at our BMW club breakfast, and subsequent ride, I asked a lot of "old-timers" this very question. I didn't receive ONE negative comment like "you can't do it." Several had known people who had done the conversion, and not one of them knew of any failure after it was properly done. In my world, when I get the "old timer's" opinions, I value that a lot more than some so-called "educated" engineers (if they are such!).

Thanks though, as I also appreciate YOUR opinion also (though I may disagree!! hehehe).
 
Jimmy -

I think you captured the essence of the whole thing. Yes it can be done, but there are risks that must be taken. Quantifying those risks are difficult to do...might be doable if one had $500K to spend and opened up a project with some engineering company. I suppose miles/years of rider experience goes part of the way to suggest a level of risk, but given the many variables involved by all those people, it can't be accepted as de facto proof. How do you prove a negative? :dunno So, each individual must decide what works for them. Just as they do for tires, oil, starters, etc. :stick

This discussion comes up from time to time. Just like those other threads that people are passionate about, there is no right answer, just the answer that works for them.
 
One or two thoughts of mine.

1. The two flats that I have had in recent years (one on a snowflake & one on a Lester) were both due to the inner tubes splitting on a seam, no tire damage occurred. Tubeless = no flats for me.

2. The older tires (pre tubeless rating) were much easier to mount & dismount from the rim. Those tubeless tires on my snowflakes have a much more tenacious grip to the rim. Many have given-up trying to mount these tires at home or on the road.

3. I agree that the snowflakes are not rated for tubeless use, BUT what good does a deflated tube in the same situation keep the tire rimmed? I don't see how a deflated tube is any factor in this. I have yet to hear any lore that tells of an incident caused by going tubeless on a snowflake.

4. I still use tubes..go figure.

5. Reportedly when a tubeless tire is equipped with a tube the speed rating of the tire (V, H, or S for example) should be considered one level lower. Apparently this is due to greater heat build up/retention in a tubed tire.
 
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You hit the nail on the head!
This is the 3rd season for my 1977 R100RS with running tubless Snowflakes.
Took my advice from a fellow club member with over 300,000 miles on his Airhead running the same.

I have watched how hard it is with a professional tire machine to take modern tires off the rim.
No way it is coming off with a flat!

I guess you just have weigh the risks and be happy with your decision.

Forget the Nay-Sayers!
 
As a former "engineer" working for 10+ years in research and development of a nationally know manufacturing firm - Just how much testing does it take to "prove" that something is possible? I would say over 300,000 miles ought to say something as well as the myriads of other people who have changed to tubeless on a tube-type rim with not one, I say not ONE documented failure.

I just think there are nay-sayers who simply enjoy saying "It can't be done!!"
 
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