How to improve the MOA forum.

billy walker said:

Not everything will automatically fall into the customer's favor. Although surprising a fuel pump would fail that quickly it is not unheard of. Bikes that sit for much of their life can and do have odd failures from time to time. Gas has the capability of ruining a fuel pump if the bike is not used frequently. BMW is not the cause of all problems.

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Yes, but no where in the owners manual does it say an owner has ride a bike x miles a year or whatever time frame. They can claim the same thing with fuel strips and probably do on some level. It's the fuel...OK. Well, As owners, we can't do anything about the quality of the fuel. If that's the case, then design something that can take it. Even my crappy Suburban is Flex Fuel.

rad said:

As was noted, it was tried before here, by one of the most intelligent, nicest men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting, Rob Lentini. As his dear friend Steve stated earlier, Rob said it did not work.

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......grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

AKBEEMER you are correct, it is your opinion and only YOUR opinion

AKBEEMER said:

Guess I'm one of the those reviling in being a member of the above the subject crowd; one of those who just does not get it. Could be true, or could be that I just expressed my opinion in a brief and succinct fashion. Mine is a valid opinion despite its brevity, certainly no less worthy than those who express themselves in a protracted manner, yet still find time to scold others if they dislike their opinion or method of expressing it. My point, this thread has run it's course.

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Your comment that "this thread has run it's course" is your opinion and only that. No problem with you expressing your opinion but don't try and limit others from voicing theirs.

This thread evidently has some interest based on the over 2000 views and 60 plus posts. Free flowing positive discussions are always a good thing.

36654 said:

......grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

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Or buy a bottle of 18 year old Macallan, an arturo fuente churchill and kick back.

rad said:

For a number of years I admined and modded the largest motorcycle forum around, and my experience tells me it can't be done with any more success than just posting somewhere on the forum the contact info for BMW corporate and the contact people's names. As was noted, it was tried before here, by one of the most intelligent, nicest men I have ever had the pleasure of meeting, Rob Lentini. As his dear friend Steve stated earlier, Rob said it did not work.

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Many things are tried in life and have failed a number of times prior to succeeding. Are we to assume that due to Rob's intelligence and the fact that Rob said it didn't work it cannot be done? I've never met Rob and have no clue as to how intelligent he is but this is an odd statement to make. Rob could very well be one of the more intelligent folks on this forum for all I know but that doesn't mean this concept is doomed to failure.

I would say this is an example of how not to approach the world. And, that is no put down of Mr. Lentini so please don't take it as such.

ponch1 said:

Yes, but no where in the owners manual does it say an owner has ride a bike x miles a year or whatever time frame. They can claim the same thing with fuel strips and probably do on some level. It's the fuel...OK. Well, As owners, we can't do anything about the quality of the fuel. If that's the case, then design something that can take it. Even my crappy Suburban is Flex Fuel.

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I have zero lifetime experience with flex fuel so can't comment on it. I assume it goes bad and clogs up the works just like any other fuel. Am I wrong on this? I see fuel-damaged fuel pumps a number of times over the course of a year. Most motorcycles are toys to their owners. This is even true in the BMW world although it seems to a lessor degree. People buy these things and then just let them sit. And sit. And sit. They lose interest. They get scared. The wife wants nothing to do with it. It has no radio. It has no air conditioning. And, my personal customer-complaint favorites: It's too cold, it's too hot, it's raining.

I say Man Up and ride the darn thing! You just might enjoy it!!

espressoforyou said:

Your comment that "this thread has run it's course" is your opinion and only that. No problem with you expressing your opinion but don't try and limit others from voicing theirs.

This thread evidently has some interest based on the over 2000 views and 60 plus posts. Free flowing positive discussions are always a good thing.

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+1 on this.

billy walker said:

Many things are tried in life and have failed a number of times prior to succeeding. Are we to assume that due to Rob's intelligence and the fact that Rob said it didn't work it cannot be done? I've never met Rob and have no clue as to how intelligent he is but this is an odd statement to make. Rob could very well be one of the more intelligent folks on this forum for all I know but that doesn't mean this concept is doomed to failure.

I would say this is an example of how not to approach the world. And, that is no put down of Mr. Lentini so please don't take it as such.

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Rob won't be joining this discussion, may he RIP

As for me, I have said all I need to.

billy walker said:

I have zero lifetime experience with flex fuel so can't comment on it. I assume it goes bad and clogs up the works just like any other fuel. Am I wrong on this? I see fuel-damaged fuel pumps a number of times over the course of a year. Most motorcycles are toys to their owners. This is even true in the BMW world although it seems to a lessor degree. People buy these things and then just let them sit. And sit. And sit. They lose interest. They get scared. The wife wants nothing to do with it. It has no radio. It has no air conditioning. And, my personal customer-complaint favorites: It's too cold, it's too hot, it's raining.

I say Man Up and ride the darn thing! You just might enjoy it!!

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http://www.k1600forum.com/forum/bmw-k1600-general-discussions/19785-cannot-believe-bmw.html

ponch1 said:

http://www.k1600forum.com/forum/bmw-k1600-general-discussions/19785-cannot-believe-bmw.html

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Interesting comments from people that seem not to know what their talking about. Believe it or not folks I'm about to stick up for BMW here so pay attention.

BMW NA, as with all OEM's, has a warranty policy which covers for defects. Not misuse. What's missing in the description of this problem is the cause of the fuel pump failure. Due to the warranty denial I am going to make an assumption. An assumption which may be incorrect but I'm working with a limited set of facts.

The pump presumably needed to be replaced due to gasoline going bad over the course of time. As gasoline varnishes up it literally will begin to destroy the fuel pump. No two fuel pumps will be ruined in the same amount of time due to the variables involved. The OP on the other site conveniently left this out of the conversation completely. If this is the issue there is nothing BMW could have done to prevent the problem. This is not a defect and BMW NA has every right to deny the claim.

The original OP is either unaware of standing gasoline issues or has chosen to ignore them and would prefer to put the blame on BMW. Should BMW teach people about the dangers to vehicle components when a vehicle sits too much? Maybe. If I were an OEM I would certainly bring up common scenarios that tend to cause problems. But having said that this is still not a defect therefore BMW would prefer not to give away their money.

But all of the above is conjecture. Before anyone starts to form conclusions we need to know the facts as they are simply not present. It is far too easy to blame BMW for every little thing that arises.

Please don't write in saying you've never heard of this occurring in such a "short" amount of time. Maybe you haven't. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of it happening. Owners will say many things in order to avoid paying for a repair. People that have been in dealerships for a number of years see many things that occur out of the norm that are not defects.

Long story short: Maybe BMW NA +1, maybe not - we need more facts - we need the causal issue. Until then no one can say including me.

I will try to come up with a picture of a fuel pump where an owner insisted it only sat for one year. If the owner is being truthful you might be quite surprised to see what this pump looks like. And, ethanol makes it worse due to incessant moisture issues.

rad said:

Rob won't be joining this discussion, may he RIP

............

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Oops... sorry. Didn't know.

I feel the need to say something here.

Most customer issues within a service department are self-inflicted by the dealer or the repair facility. After you do something for a number of years you should know how to communicate with your customer. Maybe that customer should have known this or known that. But it really doesn't matter; it's the dealers responsibility to explain in layman terms as to what is going on.

Perfect example: a bike comes in that needs to have the carbs cleaned. Not only does the dealer have the responsibility to advise the customer of what they have found they have the moral obligation to state they will not know the running condition of the motorcycle until the carbs are cleaned. The dealer cannot know the end result until those carbs are cleaned. Everything else is just a guess but the customer probably doesn't possess the technical skills to know that themselves. Therefore it is a moral obligation to advise the customer his tab may run higher than anticipated. You know how many times I've heard a customer state "you didn't tell me .... at a service counter? Do you know how difficult it is for a dealer principal to control what flows forth from someone's mouth?

The lack of communication skills not only in dealerships but in all sorts of fields is truly astonishing. People spend all kinds of money pursuing diplomas but yet they are unable to communicate to the point where they head off issues at the counter. This is a decades long peeve of mine. You can build such a solid business using ethics, morals and communications. But because so many stores insist on paying someone $1.33 an hour to work you end up with what amounts to be idiots at counters all across America. And to insure they remain an idiot they make sure no training is performed. But common sense is tough to train on. Ethics classes in college are a joke. That is why you have people at such companies as BMW telling you what they tell you. They have few to no ethical principles. And, it starts from the top and works its way down. And, we have people on this very forum who seem to wish the problem away rather than take action against a wrong. Or, stick up for a consumer who has just been plain wronged by BMW. Sorry, I don't get it. If I hire someone who shows signs of lacking concern for both my business and my customer they are out of there quickly. Mistakes happen, not caring is intentional.

For all the defenders of these types of corporate actions you need to wake up and do what is right for the customer when circumstances dictate.

Much has been said about the need for a position. Anecdotal evidence supporting the need is quickly provided. What is lacking is any development of the job description, the powers and duties the position might have, how the position fits into the BMW MOA organizational structure, how multiple BMW structures are dealt with - BMW NA is and BMW CA are independent arms of BMW AG operating in separate countries with different government and dealer structures as just one example.

On another level how does what may be proposed support, sustain and grow the BMW MOA? The discussion of the questions in the previous paragraph may lead to a potentially viable answer; however if the case can not be made for it fitting within the BMW MOA it will go nowhere.

I am neither pro or con on this particular iteration of this topic. Before this thread joins others on the topic that required a liaison/moderator intervention, perhaps some time should be spent on how do any of you plan to operationalize your ideas and a discussion of what the cost/benefit for the organization would be seems in order.

mika said:

Much has been said about the need for a position. Anecdotal evidence supporting the need is quickly provided. What is lacking is any development of the job description, the powers and duties the position might have, how the position fits into the BMW MOA organizational structure, how multiple BMW structures are dealt with - BMW NA is and BMW CA are independent arms of BMW AG operating in separate countries with different government and dealer structures as just one example.

On another level how does what may be proposed support, sustain and grow the BMW MOA? The discussion of the questions in the previous paragraph may lead to a potentially viable answer; however if the case can not be made for it fitting within the BMW MOA it will go nowhere.

I am neither pro or con on this particular iteration of this topic. Before this thread joins others on the topic that required a liaison/moderator intervention, perhaps some time should be spent on how do any of you plan to operationalize your ideas and a discussion of what the cost/benefit for the organization would be seems in order.

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You are correct in what you say. IMO it is not clear whether the club even wants a person of this nature to be associated with the club. People seem to get really side tracked and get to imagining money being siphoned from the coffers for advocacy expense to use an example. Until there seems to be a recognition of the fact that something of this nature MAY provide a benefit is there a point to drawing up plans for the infrastructure of such a position? Is that the cart before the horse?

billy walker said:

I have zero lifetime experience with flex fuel so can't comment on it. I assume it goes bad and clogs up the works just like any other fuel. Am I wrong on this? I see fuel-damaged fuel pumps a number of times over the course of a year. Most motorcycles are toys to their owners. This is even true in the BMW world although it seems to a lessor degree. People buy these things and then just let them sit. And sit. And sit. They lose interest. They get scared. The wife wants nothing to do with it. It has no radio. It has no air conditioning. And, my personal customer-complaint favorites: It's too cold, it's too hot, it's raining.

I say Man Up and ride the darn thing! You just might enjoy it!!

Click to expand...

billy walker said:

Interesting comments from people that seem not to know what their talking about. Believe it or not folks I'm about to stick up for BMW here so pay attention.

BMW NA, as with all OEM's, has a warranty policy which covers for defects. Not misuse. What's missing in the description of this problem is the cause of the fuel pump failure. Due to the warranty denial I am going to make an assumption. An assumption which may be incorrect but I'm working with a limited set of facts.

The pump presumably needed to be replaced due to gasoline going bad over the course of time. As gasoline varnishes up it literally will begin to destroy the fuel pump. No two fuel pumps will be ruined in the same amount of time due to the variables involved. The OP on the other site conveniently left this out of the conversation completely. If this is the issue there is nothing BMW could have done to prevent the problem. This is not a defect and BMW NA has every right to deny the claim.

The original OP is either unaware of standing gasoline issues or has chosen to ignore them and would prefer to put the blame on BMW. Should BMW teach people about the dangers to vehicle components when a vehicle sits too much? Maybe. If I were an OEM I would certainly bring up common scenarios that tend to cause problems. But having said that this is still not a defect therefore BMW would prefer not to give away their money.

But all of the above is conjecture. Before anyone starts to form conclusions we need to know the facts as they are simply not present. It is far too easy to blame BMW for every little thing that arises.

Please don't write in saying you've never heard of this occurring in such a "short" amount of time. Maybe you haven't. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of it happening. Owners will say many things in order to avoid paying for a repair. People that have been in dealerships for a number of years see many things that occur out of the norm that are not defects.

Long story short: Maybe BMW NA +1, maybe not - we need more facts - we need the causal issue. Until then no one can say including me.

I will try to come up with a picture of a fuel pump where an owner insisted it only sat for one year. If the owner is being truthful you might be quite surprised to see what this pump looks like. And, ethanol makes it worse due to incessant moisture issues.

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We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.

ponch1 said:

We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.

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That is excellent news as it may imply my assumption was off base. That is great! Why would BMW put a customer through this if it wasn't due to fuel degradation? Oh yeah... what am I thinking... arrogance!! Hopefully I'm not pointing the finger too quick here. If so, I will offer full apologies.

espressoforyou said:

Your comment that "this thread has run it's course" is your opinion and only that. No problem with you expressing your opinion but don't try and limit others from voicing theirs.

This thread evidently has some interest based on the over 2000 views and 60 plus posts. Free flowing positive discussions are always a good thing.

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+10, Triple Gunny!

ponch1 said:

We don't know what happened with the pump and from the post, neither did BMW. Their decision was ex cathedra. Now, what seemed to make the biggest difference was the dealer. Bob's is a big dealer and they stood their ground. It worked for that guy.

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Again, your mind exceeds mine by use of this term: ex cathedra

Hopefully I can say this within the forum as I was brought up in the Catholic church but bailed out long ago. Catholics are taught the Pope is infallible. Of course, the Bible states no one is perfect, not one except the Lord. Just as the Catholic church feels it is perfect so does BMW. Isn't it strange how we attempt to fool ourselves.

billy walker said:

Oops... sorry. Didn't know.

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Hey Billy, that's ok, it was many years ago.

I said I was done here, however I do want to end this on a positive note. I will tell you why I trust Rob's opinion so well. Back in the day he was the guru of all that was BMW. He authored many of the classic BMW tech articles, his most famous was zero-zero. I don't even know how many roles he played in the BMWMOA organization, I just know he was well respected. I had the pleasure of communicating with him a few times regarding my Oil Head and attending a seminar he and Steve did in Death Valley many years ago.

I wish you guys the best of luck in trying to come up with a way to empower folks dealing with the BMW corporate.

rad

rad said:

Hey Billy, that's ok, it was many years ago.

I said I was done here, however I do want to end this on a positive note. I will tell you why I trust Rob's opinion so well. Back in the day he was the guru of all that was BMW. He authored many of the classic BMW tech articles, his most famous was zero-zero. I don't even know how many roles he played in the BMWMOA organization, I just know he was well respected. I had the pleasure of communicating with him a few times regarding my Oil Head and attending a seminar he and Steve did in Death Valley many years ago.

I wish you guys the best of luck in trying to come up with a way to empower folks dealing with the BMW corporate.

rad

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It's great to have those "go to" people within an organization. Far too many people just lay back expecting for things to just "happen". But I guess that's where the 80/20 rule comes in to play. Life takes work and effort. You would just hope there are people that actually care about other people. Not easy for many.