2008 R1200RT - 32,000 Miles - Final Drive Failure

greenwald said:

BMW goes to great lengths to conceal the actual number of FD failures the RT's are experiencing (most FD failure components get spirited back to Germany by the dealers - mine did).

Ergo, no one outside of corporate BMW actually knows the failure percentage.

Those whom have suffered often angrily inflate the percentage to as much as 20% - I don't think it's that high.

The 'other side of the fence' like to gloss over the failure rate at 2% or less - I don't think it's that low.

But if it happens to you, your failure rate is an expensive 100% - I think that's unacceptable.

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+1, Gunny; very well said greenwald, totally unacceptable from a continuous Beemer Owner since March of 1969 with a 1966 R60/2 and I joined MOA in 1979!

greenwald said:

BMW goes to great lengths to conceal the actual number of FD failures the RT's are experiencing (most FD failure components get spirited back to Germany by the dealers - mine did).

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Perhaps there's some indication of mysterious dealings with the issue in that my dealer was told by BMW that no longer were rebuild parts available for an FD failure...only a complete new unit. That said, perhaps BMW is concerned about the difficulty of correctly rebuilding an FD, and does not want anyone (including BMW-trained techs) to try it any more?

ExGMan said:

Perhaps there's some indication of mysterious dealings with the issue in that my dealer was told by BMW that no longer were rebuild parts available for an FD failure...only a complete new unit. That said, perhaps BMW is concerned about the difficulty of correctly rebuilding an FD, and does not want anyone (including BMW-trained techs) to try it any more?

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May be they are just disposable.

ponch1 said:

May be they are just disposable.

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Maybe they are simply making sure that the drives aren't being rebuilt locally and then sold/charged to customers as a replacement at thousands of dollars.

If BMW would release the figures of drive failures compared to bikes sold and these figures would be low.... would anybody believe it or just come up with a whole new conspiracy theory again???
Fairly sure it would be the later.

Other manufacturers don't run around releasing any figures of failed components either, unless it makes them look good.

Transparency works for me. Unfortunately, it's a rarity today.


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ExGMan said:

Since this install was done at a BMW dealer, it now has a 2-year warranty from BMW.

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It doesn't matter if it was done at a BMW dealer. It's still covered for two years. However, dealers sometimes are not all on the same page as BMW.
On parts...
"To obtain service under this warranty
for parts purchased over the counter
or by mail order from an authorized
BMW motorcycle retailer, the
defective part(s) or accessories must
be brought to an authorized BMW
motorcycle dealer. Upon presentation
of the original sales invoice showing
the purchase date and BMW part
number, the BMW dealer will repair or
replace said part(s) or accessories
covered by this warranty free of
charge. This warranty does not cover
labor costs for the removal or
installation of the part(s) or
accessories."

Alfred02 said:

Maybe they are simply making sure that the drives aren't being rebuilt locally and then sold/charged to customers as a replacement at thousands of dollars.

If BMW would release the figures of drive failures compared to bikes sold and these figures would be low.... would anybody believe it or just come up with a whole new conspiracy theory again???
Fairly sure it would be the later.

Other manufacturers don't run around releasing any figures of failed components either, unless it makes them look good.

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Here's an interesting article that I think ties into this. I have to wonder if it applies here and if BMW execs understand it.

ExGMan said:

Here's another one to add to the list. My RT was in for a 6K service at my BMW dealer. During the service the technician discovered that the final drive was grinding. Looks like a replacement is the next event. The folks at the dealer advised me not to ride it so I had an ignominious ride home on a beautiful day in a rental car.

I had purchased an extended warranty a couple of years ago, and so the Service Mgr. is working with that company to get authorization to replace the unit. I think I'll be OK, money-wise. FWIW, this RT had been serviced strictly by BMW dealers since new.

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Hi ExGMan,

I saw you're in Chestnut Hill. I'm in Waltham, on an '07 RT. I'm worried about FD issues on my bike as well. I'm curious what dealer/service shop you go to that made the diagnosis? Feel free to PM me if you'd rather.

Greg - I tried to send you two PMs tonight...one lengthy one and another shorter. Somehow I think vBulletin ate them. My email is: jgamelpi@gmail.com. Try me there, and we can talk on the 'phone so I can explain the entire saga to you.

John "ExGMan" Gamel

Remember this?

BMW brought us NEW FD technology in these, NO SERVICE required was the original new era FD's on all our new BMWs. A BMW Car crossover technical idea to bikes! WELL, it clearly flopped and this was the reason for NO DRAINPLUGS on the early ones, as in my '07GSA1200. I am at 97000miles, with one bearing replaced in FD(around 75000m), as it was slightly wiggly in one checkup. I was in for new tire, when my BMW Tech did the wiggle test of wheel on bike. It was soooo minimal, the movement I could not even feel, but he just did a new bearing for safe measures. I had 2 failures on 2001 KLT1200 FDs in 98000miles. I do all my own service and do the FD OIL at every rear tire change, splines too. I will never forget the FD OIL phenom in the beginning either, as BMW did not even KNOW how much oil to use in FD????? They changed it from 235cc to 180cc, remember! Now, this is a WOW factor from a design team/ R and D department at BMW with grey matter missing! The parts are not German(most probable), out sourced as almost everybody does these days in manufacturing. We must live with that and its not always perfect, we suffer. Just a few things left off this thread so far, thought needed mentioning. I think the majority of BMWs have not had these failures or BMW would be out of business, not survivable. We always hear the bad things first, as they blossom into giants. Risk is in the business of building anything and we are the recipients/ test subjects of todays world. Maybe its always been this way! Randy

As to the oil level, they sealed the drive. And I think pressure was causing the seal to wear on the seal surface. So they reduced the oil level in an attempt to solve that. Then they came out with the vented drives.
There was some debate as to whether the lower oil level would reduce the pressure. Seems like it would.

Sorry for the problem but glad you had the warranty

ExGMan said:

I picked up the bike two days ago (I had been away for two weeks out of the country). For those who are interested in the specifics, all the parts came to $1951.60, and labor came to: $150.40. Anyway, the big piece was a 33 11 7 726 895 part for $1857.68. This is described as a "Right-angle gearbox with vent, silver." Another $92 covered nuts, pivot pins, screws, etc. Since this install was done at a BMW dealer, it now has a 2-year warranty from BMW. Since it's a brand-new final drive, I was advised to return to the dealer to change the fluid at 600 miles on the new piece.

For me, the cost of the extended warranty was worth the peace of mind as I embarked on an 8200-mile trip to CA and back last Fall. Now that it has actually paid off, I'm pleased that I spent the $$ but am a little nervous about the future with this RT.

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Before the extended warranty expires I would take the bike back to the dealer and have them look for any possible problems.

It would not surprise me if BMW NA got rid of the 2 year parts and labor warranty at some point.

The 2 year parts and labor warranty has allowed to get my defective engine seals repaired for free for 8 years now on my 2005 r1200gs. It is scheduled to go in the shop next week for more seal replacement under warranty.

Glad you are on the road again and at no cost to you.

Good reply ponch

ponch1 said:

Alfred:

If BMW didn't have problems with FDs, then it wouldn't be an issue. Enough people have had problems and it makes the most anal among us crazy. I've owned other bikes that had common issues with a particular model/engine, but the fixes were found by the owners and it was/is relatively cheap fixes. In this case, failure of a FD isn't going to be cheap and there seems to be no rhyme or reason to why they blow up. On the other hand, there are plenty other manufacturers that produce FDs with engines that have a lot more stonk and bikes that weigh more, yet they don't see near the failure rate we do. So, it may never happen to you or I or TGA, but you have to admit, it's in the back of your mind that it could happen.

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I hope Alfred never has a FD failure. But he shouldn't question other concerns about a well known problem. Sounds like Alfred did his daily dose of BMW Kool-Aid and that is fine to be proud of a company.

FD failure

I agree-There are 5 riders in our group-3 ride 1200 GS and 1 a brand new rt and another a 1150 GS. So far 3 of the bikes have lost their FDs. The RT rear went at 2000 miles, the 1150 went twice with a total of 47,000 miles. The 1200GS just went at 28,000 miles. I have owned over 15 BMWs (mostly pre 70) and never had a problem with the FD. I also have owned a lot of Honda shaft drive bikes and have never heard of failures in their FD. Everyone we speak to has the same answer-Not a question of will it go but WHEN. I have been riding for over 50 years and if I were to head for Alaska from NY it would be with a chain drive machine. Easy to carry 2 sprockets and a chain for spares. BMW should admit there is a problem and we are the ones paying for it.
Deke MacPherson

deke macpherson said:

I agree-There are 5 riders in our group-3 ride 1200 GS and 1 a brand new rt and another a 1150 GS. So far 3 of the bikes have lost their FDs. The RT rear went at 2000 miles, the 1150 went twice with a total of 47,000 miles. The 1200GS just went at 28,000 miles. I have owned over 15 BMWs (mostly pre 70) and never had a problem with the FD. I also have owned a lot of Honda shaft drive bikes and have never heard of failures in their FD. Everyone we speak to has the same answer-Not a question of will it go but WHEN. I have been riding for over 50 years and if I were to head for Alaska from NY it would be with a chain drive machine. Easy to carry 2 sprockets and a chain for spares. BMW should admit there is a problem and we are the ones paying for it.
Deke MacPherson

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Thanks for the detailed post, Deke. Interesting information. Your frustration is palpable and while I sympathize with your views, there are two truisms you need to acknowledge on this issue. Both are firmly entrenched in a culture of denial.

1) BMW Motorrad is one of the least transparent global motorcycle corporations on the planet - they will never acknowledge that a problem did or does exist. This makes any perception that "the problem has been solved" wishful thinking at best, and simply brand-loyalty cheerleading at its worst.

2) There are many who are so passionately loyal to a brand that any criticism is nothing less than offensive, and often it gets shouted down. Regretably, nothing gets improved quickly that way - instead a mechanical status-quo usually results, which does not promote evolution of the product.

While a majority of owners may not experience an FD failure during their ownership years of that model, the problems with the FD's are real and chronic. Consider that your odds of being murdered in your lifetime are extremely low. Yet a prudent person doesn't pretend there is no problem or tempts fate with reckless behavior. The same principles apply here: FD failure should be a more high-profile concern (both from BMW and bike owners) and should receive greater attention on the corporate level.

Sadly, they are already restocking the Kool-Aid in aisle 5.

deke macpherson said:

I agree-There are 5 riders in our group-3 ride 1200 GS and 1 a brand new rt and another a 1150 GS. So far 3 of the bikes have lost their FDs. The RT rear went at 2000 miles, the 1150 went twice with a total of 47,000 miles. The 1200GS just went at 28,000 miles. I have owned over 15 BMWs (mostly pre 70) and never had a problem with the FD. I also have owned a lot of Honda shaft drive bikes and have never heard of failures in their FD. Everyone we speak to has the same answer-Not a question of will it go but WHEN. I have been riding for over 50 years and if I were to head for Alaska from NY it would be with a chain drive machine. Easy to carry 2 sprockets and a chain for spares. BMW should admit there is a problem and we are the ones paying for it.
Deke MacPherson

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I am interested in knowing what specifically failed on these bikes? Are we talking FD bearing, shaft, spline or universal joint? What other facts can you share about riding style, maintenance attentiveness, etc?

Scot

greenwald said:

.........snip.............Sadly, they are already restocking the Kool-Aid in aisle 5.

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I Can't disagree too much with your comments.

I have been there, two final drive failures on an Oil Head, one of those 2,000 miles from home. As I have stated a couple times lately, I left BMW ownership for about 5 years, I rode mechanically flawless VFR?s.

But..I came back. Why? I can't find another bike out there that meets my requirements. There are a number of shaft drive bikes, but almost all are heavy and covered with body work, not what I'm after.

How do I deal with my lack of trust in BMW reliability? I now look at the rear drive as a replacement wear item. I ate up chain & sprocket sets about every 20k on my VFR's so the cost to repair the rear drive is close to the same as two or three sets of quality chains & sprockets.

I also have gone back to BMW because every motorcycle dealer, except KTM, has gone belly up in town. The saving grace for BMW is that they are so darn easy to work on; I do most of my own work. For those highly technical parts of a job I have one of the best repair guys in the biz just a couple miles away, Ted Porter. Any other brand I would be hauling my bike out of town for work.

So, no kool-aid drinking here, which of course makes it much more difficult to lay on the straw mat, pull up the purple blanket and close my eyes.

liv2ride said:

I am interested in knowing what specifically failed on these bikes? Are we talking FD bearing, shaft, spline or universal joint? What other facts can you share about riding style, maintenance attentiveness, etc?

Scot

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I think it would be interesting to hear what component actually failed in the FDs, but riding style and attentiveness is a manufacturer's song. I personally can't think of any FD failure that I know about that can be attributed to riding style or unreasonable attentiveness.

I agree with Deke that I'd don't trust BMWs current FD for ultimate reliability- there is no doubt that a chain drive, despite being a nuisance- is a better choice if you're heading away from support (but do maintain it lest it break and hole an engine case). Relucantly said because I despise chain maintenance= they work but are the worst part of any bike that has one. (Yes I own one chain drive bike, a Transalp)
Costs are a different issue - costs for any type of FD over 100K miles can be substantial whether through belt drive replace/repair, chain/sprocket replacement or FD repair/replacement for a BMW.

I've also not personally met any Honda or Yamaha owners who've had an FD failure (including me) though I'm sure there are some. But I've personally met lots of BMW riders who have, a few at low miles. My experiences suggest BMW FDs are considerably less reliable than J brand versions- though none of the 4 BMWs in our fleet has puked one yet (all are in the 25-50K mile range).

The thing is, most expect a diff to bulletproof- you've got to look long and hard to find anyone whose cage puked a diff, let alone at short miles.
The fact that the replacement can go $2K is aggravation on top of the annoyance of early failure.

The first machinery related question I'm often asked by owners of other brands is about BMW reputation for unreliable FDs- the word is out to other riders that failures aren't rare and can be expensive. Whether it has any effect on sales I don't know- I suspect most folks who spring for the price of a new BMW aren't hugely worried about it given the warranty and their means...

At least I can get home with a bad radio.lol