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DIY vs Warranty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Despite what the dealers say, the above act is in force in the USA. The burden of proof is NOT on you. I have seen far too many first scheduled maintenance's to believe that they are anything special. My FJR came back with missing plastic fasteners and I checked to see if they synced the TB's like they were supposed to, but did not. My Triumph Sprint ST cost me $120 for an oil change and a "visual inspection." IMO, that is the rule, not the exception.

"Yeah, I'd agree with that. DIY work needs to be done well." If YOU screw it up, then YOU should pay for it, PERIOD!!! The reference above does not apply.
 
I'm just saying it could. I work part time at a BMW dealer and I have seen a lot of the botched DIY work of unknowing owners. If your bike has NO dealer maintenance record, and it develops a problem related to a warranty issue, BMW is still held to their side of the issue for the warranty, but I am sure a dealer will argue more in your favor if he knows something of the bike, because the dealer also represents the company and may take some of the cost hit.

The dealer isn't taking any of the cost hit. The dealer is going to be paid at the labor rate he agreed to when he signed the franchise agreement for whatever time the factory labor times call for. As for bike owners screwing up DIY work, there are plenty of dealer mechanics that don't do so well either.
 
Norms427 - Thanks - that is perfect and goes to the point.

Sick,

That is the very source on which I based my previous statement:

"The best idea would be to get the list from the service manager at the dealership where you bought/plan on having your warranty work done. That way there is no disagreement as to what should have been done. Several of those official looking online lists are completely missing some of the most critical known maintenance items (ie. early K bike final drive spline lube). If the guy that is making the decision on your warranty knows he is the guy that gave you the list of what to maintain, you should have no problem. If you get a list off the internet, they have room to say that it was the wrong or not current list."

If you had used those lists to service an early Kbike, your final drive splines would have an early demise. Just because it's on a dealers website and says BMW on it does not mean it is the latest approved version with all the latest service bulletins and updates. Check with whichever dealer you buy the bike from and/or whichever dealer you would be taking any warranty issues to to make sure that those lists are complete. Periodically check with them to find out if there have been any updates or service bulletins.



:dance:dance:dance
 
I suppose A&S (who is a BMW dealer) might not post up a mid-year update to a maintenance schedule. And I'm guessing that Haynes Manuals can't notify people of up a mid-year update to a maintenance schedule. Also, the $100 Maintenance DVD outfit also might not be able to notify someone of an update.

It's possible, whether it's a Chevy or a BMW, that new recommendations come from the factory every so often though in my 35 years of backyard wrenching I've never been aware of it being a factor to anything I've owned.

So to be very safe, then a DIY owner should check with the dealer perhaps monthly to make sure the latest maintenance schedule is correct. Scary.

Personally, I live dangerously, so I won't be checking with my dealer periodically and I'll take my chances with the schedules from A&S, Haynes and the DVD.

________________

P.S. Or, BMW could print their schedules in the owner's manuals like nearly every other manufacturer in the modern world and then if any updates come along they could post them on their website under Maintenance.
 
Last edited:
Maintenance Schedules

Ok, I have learned a lot. Thanks for the responses.

Final question (I think). Is there a list available that shows a schedule of recommended maintenance to keep my new bike in it's best possible mechanical shape?

Provide your dealer with the last 7 of the VIN and they can print out the most current maintenance schedule. BMW maintenance schedule's are basically a live document and can change periodically. When the dealer enters the VIN he/she has access to the latest schedule.

By the way... Moss/Magnuson Act prevents dealers from forcing folks to be dealer serviced. Federal law gives you the right to self-maintenance. Try to keep all receipts and mileage numbers in case they ask for something which they do have the right to do. However, lack of producing a doc doesn't automatically disqualify you. Should you damage something during a self-maintenance whatever you damage may be denied warranty coverage for that particular repair. An OEM cannot deny coverage for future events unless of course you decide to damage more things in the future. Your warranty remains in place for the full term however.

There is something to be said for servicing at a dealership. OEM service reps will frequently ask if the customer has brought the bike in for the scheduled maintenances should you experience a failure after warranty expiration. The dealer performed services will not guarantee coverage once the warranty has expired however. It's up to the OEM to decide and the reasons can be complicated and have potential federal implications. Keep in mind some people will attempt services that they do not have the skill sets and/or tools for. So think and know with certainty if your concerned with potential warranty claims. Or, consider it a wonderful learning experience that may have financial implications and go with what you feel comfortable with.

An important point when it comes to warranty: many folks will argue that something should be warranty after the warranty has expired. Realize there is zero guarantee the OEM will do something for you once you have reached the expiration point. The time to decide if you can live with the warranty terms is prior to the purchase not after. Read the warranty prior to purchase and decide if you can live with the terms. If you can't don't make the purchase.
 
The following info is not 100% correct...

The dealer isn't taking any of the cost hit. The dealer is going to be paid at the labor rate he agreed to when he signed the franchise agreement for whatever time the factory labor times call for. As for bike owners screwing up DIY work, there are plenty of dealer mechanics that don't do so well either.

This statement is correct: both customers and dealers can make mistakes. There is no business in the world that is perfect. Customers are not perfect either. Theoretically the dealer tech has a considerably higher skill set than most customers however but there are no guarantee's. The original post is factually correct... frequently a DIY individual will perform the repair wrong.

As to the comment "The dealer isn't taking any of the cost hit." Not necessarily correct as sometimes BMW will negotiate a percentage claim on out-of-warranty repairs. For example the OEM may offer to pick-up 1/2 the cost if the dealer is willing to pick-up the other half or possibly the dealer will be asked to pick-up 1/4 and the customer 1/4. A dealer and/or a customer denial can scuttle the whole transaction. In addition, because flat rate times are based on certain assumptions which may or may not be present the dealership may not get full retail value for his/her share. This is an issue in automotive as well as motorcycle and in fact there have been class action law suits in regards to this. Never forget if an OEM understates "real" repair time they lower their expense on that particular repair because they pay the dealer less than full value. Some states guarantee through an act of law that an OEM must reimburse the dealer at retail rates. However the law does not get involved in how warranty times were determined. Some OEM's are worse than others and BMW is better than many but there are a variety of warranty repairs that even a BMW dealer will lose their butt on. It's just part of the gig. Almost 100% of the time the dealer will have zero say in the matter.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
Despite what the dealers say, the above act is in force in the USA. The burden of proof is NOT on you. I have seen far too many first scheduled maintenance's to believe that they are anything special. My FJR came back with missing plastic fasteners and I checked to see if they synced the TB's like they were supposed to, but did not. My Triumph Sprint ST cost me $120 for an oil change and a "visual inspection." IMO, that is the rule, not the exception.

"Yeah, I'd agree with that. DIY work needs to be done well." If YOU screw it up, then YOU should pay for it, PERIOD!!! The reference above does not apply.

If you are dealing with a dealership that is stating you need to do it through them you really need to find another dealer. Moss/Magnuson has been in effect for decades and only a deceitful dealer would be trying to play that game.
 
I'm just saying it could. I work part time at a BMW dealer and I have seen a lot of the botched DIY work of unknowing owners. If your bike has NO dealer maintenance record, and it develops a problem related to a warranty issue, BMW is still held to their side of the issue for the warranty, but I am sure a dealer will argue more in your favor if he knows something of the bike, because the dealer also represents the company and may take some of the cost hit.

Let's rephrase this - if a dealer knows you damaged the part he/she should not be more willing to argue in your favor. After all if the dealer is willing to lie to the rep what makes you think he/she won't lie to you? Dishonesty after all is dishonesty. Even with a lack of documentation I would never offer a non-warranty repair unless I knew for fact it wasn't a warranty issue. Non-warranty needs to be backed up with facts and not assumptions. I really don't care about the receipts and the OEM will rarely press the receipt issue. But ethical dealings on both the dealer and customer is important despite our government teaching us otherwise. All involved parties need to be responsible in their dealings; OEM, dealer and customer.
 
I'm a big proponent of DIY, IF you are capable and understand more than just which way to turn the wrench. But, I am also a proponent of having the dealer at least do the first service schedule. Think of it as insurance. If the dealer has record of at least the first service on the bike, and since if something is to go amiss it usually happens soone than later, then at least YOU and the dealer have a record to present to the factory should a "discussion" come up.

If you do everything on the bike from day one, with no dealer participation, then its your word as an untrained inexperienced (no matter what YOU say, that is how the manufacturer sees it) home wrench against the wealth of knowledge of BMW. If anything doesn't fit right, work right, is mishandled, then the factory will have the attitude to wash its hands of the bike. Right or wrong, its all to you then to prove the issue on the bike.

That is not the way the OEM looks at these things as federal law prevents it. It doesn't matter how much experience you have or if you have zero training. The facts are this: some DIY folk despite their lack of credentials and skill sets will do the work correctly and some will not. Those that don't and in turn damage something may have a warranty issue on their hands. There really is nothing magical about the first service. It is true you may catch a problem in its early stages but it's just as likely to occur at a later point in time.

As far as the wealth of knowledge statement: often true but certainly not all the time. And, this may be a surprise but if the dealer creates a problem the problem turns into a non-warranty issue. No OEM will warranty dealer errors. The OEM will not pay the dealership for a dealership mistake. At that point the honesty of the dealer comes into play.
 
What he said. I've had both a Kawasaki area rep and the Triumph USA rep try to intimidate me with that "void your warranty" business. It doesn't fly, BUT being on good relations with a good dealership sure helps grease the skids.

I have never heard a rep make that type of statement. Are you sure you were speaking with an OEM rep?
 
This statement is correct: both customers and dealers can make mistakes. There is no business in the world that is perfect. Customers are not perfect either. Theoretically the dealer tech has a considerably higher skill set than most customers however but there are no guarantee's. The original post is factually correct... frequently a DIY individual will perform the repair wrong.

Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...
 
Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...

Ponch, if flat rate is 12 hours a tech would never be able to pull it off in 6 hours. If enough tech's were able to do that the OEM's would be altering the flat rate down to somewhere around 5 hours give or take.

It would be best if you complained to the dealer. There is no such thing as the perfect dealership technician. Many customers seem to have difficulty with that. The problem is the statement is 100% true. Every business in the world makes mistakes although it is common for customers to cycle amongst dealerships over perceived wrongs. Dealer A loses a customer over a mistake and then gains a customer from Dealer C because the Dealer C customer will no longer deal with Dealer C over a problem that occurred there. I realize many customers don't relate to that but an honest dealership wants to know about its errors. If customers don't say anything the dealership most of the time will never know an error occurred.

Think about this: if a dealership turns out 5,000 repair orders a year it is virtually impossible to have zero mistakes. Impossible. Human beings simply are not that talented. What is important is how a dealer goes about correcting its mistakes.

Now it is possible the tech doesn't care enough about his job but it is important the dealership know about that type of attitude. It is also possible the technician simply made a mistake. Another possibility is the tech may need further training or possibly need to purchase additional tools. Or, all of the above. None of this will be discovered if you don't say anything. It hurts you, it hurts the dealership and it hurts other customers if it is anything other than a simple mistake.

In my opinion here is the best way to handle the issue. Most importantly you want to know if you're dealing with an ethical dealership. So you go back and don't display anger. Explain the bike was just worked on and you feel something is wrong with whatever and if they could please look at it. And then say nothing more. Observe how the dealer is handling the problem. Are they trying to stonewall you without reviewing the problem? Or, are they getting a tech to take a look at what's going on? Sometimes it will be an additional legitimate problem but usually if an issue crops up immediately after being worked on it's typically repair-related. But if you deny the dealer the opportunity to show his/her true colors how will you know you're dealing with someone who actually cares or not? To put a positive spin on it you might actually be able to get an idea of how ethical the dealer is especially when dealing with an unknown dealership.

Just look at your place of employment. Every single fellow employee and the owner have made mistakes within that business from time to time. As have you. A dealership is no different. How the store takes care of the problem is key in whether you feel you want to continue to deal with them or not. Obviously this would not apply to a business and/or an individual who are busy with mistakes day after day.
 
Part of the problem is the incentive plan. Mechanics are encouraged to make time. So if a job is 12 hours according to the book and a tech can do it in 6 hours, the tech is onto the next paying job while the first customer is still paying for the full 12 hours. In return, a mechanic usually gets a cut. This can lead to sloppy work. I had this happen on a ABS cable replacement. The fuel lines were sticking out by the steering stem. If it wasn't warranty, I would have gone back and complained. I fixed it myself and then blogged about it...I guess I won't be going back to that dealer...

We know all people make mistakes. Let me ask you a question on the blogging if I may. When you make a mistake at your place of employment do you and your employer want the opportunity to correct the mistake or would you prefer people going around bad mouthing you over the mistake? Every one of us on this forum can relate to that. I have never understood the need to blog about mistakes unless a business is making mistakes day in and day out proving the business is incapable of being run correctly. Does that make any sense?
 
If you are dealing with a dealership that is stating you need to do it through them you really need to find another dealer. Moss/Magnuson has been in effect for decades and only a deceitful dealer would be trying to play that game.
You are absolutely correct. HOWEVER; I have had a Kawasaki Area rep in PA tell me directly that I should never work on a bike myself, "it will void your warranty." When Triumphs were catching on fire with bad quick disconnects on fuel lines, Peter Corleo? the Customer Service grand poobah for Triumph USA stated to me that only a certified Triumph mechanic can replace those fittings (and implied anything else) or it would void the warranty. When he said that, there was not certification program for Triumph mechanics. With both the Triumph and the Kawasaki, I had a great dealer, Kissell's in State College, PA, who went to bat for me every time I had an issue. That included times when I did the work. There is almost no substitute for having a good dealer.
 
Ponch, if flat rate is 12 hours a tech would never be able to pull it off in 6 hours. If enough tech's were able to do that the OEM's would be altering the flat rate down to somewhere around 5 hours give or take.

It would be best if you complained to the dealer. There is no such thing as the perfect dealership technician. Many customers seem to have difficulty with that. The problem is the statement is 100% true. Every business in the world makes mistakes although it is common for customers to cycle amongst dealerships over perceived wrongs. Dealer A loses a customer over a mistake and then gains a customer from Dealer C because the Dealer C customer will no longer deal with Dealer C over a problem that occurred there. I realize many customers don't relate to that but an honest dealership wants to know about its errors. If customers don't say anything the dealership most of the time will never know an error occurred.

Think about this: if a dealership turns out 5,000 repair orders a year it is virtually impossible to have zero mistakes. Impossible. Human beings simply are not that talented. What is important is how a dealer goes about correcting its mistakes.

Now it is possible the tech doesn't care enough about his job but it is important the dealership know about that type of attitude. It is also possible the technician simply made a mistake. Another possibility is the tech may need further training or possibly need to purchase additional tools. Or, all of the above. None of this will be discovered if you don't say anything. It hurts you, it hurts the dealership and it hurts other customers if it is anything other than a simple mistake.

In my opinion here is the best way to handle the issue. Most importantly you want to know if you're dealing with an ethical dealership. So you go back and don't display anger. Explain the bike was just worked on and you feel something is wrong with whatever and if they could please look at it. And then say nothing more. Observe how the dealer is handling the problem. Are they trying to stonewall you without reviewing the problem? Or, are they getting a tech to take a look at what's going on? Sometimes it will be an additional legitimate problem but usually if an issue crops up immediately after being worked on it's typically repair-related. But if you deny the dealer the opportunity to show his/her true colors how will you know you're dealing with someone who actually cares or not? To put a positive spin on it you might actually be able to get an idea of how ethical the dealer is especially when dealing with an unknown dealership.

Just look at your place of employment. Every single fellow employee and the owner have made mistakes within that business from time to time. As have you. A dealership is no different. How the store takes care of the problem is key in whether you feel you want to continue to deal with them or not. Obviously this would not apply to a business and/or an individual who are busy with mistakes day after day.

There's a local independent shop owner that says he can do an LT clutch in half the book time, which I think is 12 hours. He also said when he worked at a local BMW dealer, he made 6 figures because he could make time. So, according to him, he can do a 12 hour job in 6 hours. A dealer might love this.
 
We know all people make mistakes. Let me ask you a question on the blogging if I may. When you make a mistake at your place of employment do you and your employer want the opportunity to correct the mistake or would you prefer people going around bad mouthing you over the mistake? Every one of us on this forum can relate to that. I have never understood the need to blog about mistakes unless a business is making mistakes day in and day out proving the business is incapable of being run correctly. Does that make any sense?

There's a big difference in what I get paid and the rate the dealership charges. The expectations are a lot higher at the rates they charge and the consequences are more as well as it could be a safety issue. As far as blogging, it's my prerogative. If he did a great job, he could have gotten kudos too. it goes both ways.
 
You are absolutely correct. HOWEVER; I have had a Kawasaki Area rep in PA tell me directly that I should never work on a bike myself, "it will void your warranty." When Triumphs were catching on fire with bad quick disconnects on fuel lines, Peter Corleo? the Customer Service grand poobah for Triumph USA stated to me that only a certified Triumph mechanic can replace those fittings (and implied anything else) or it would void the warranty. When he said that, there was not certification program for Triumph mechanics. With both the Triumph and the Kawasaki, I had a great dealer, Kissell's in State College, PA, who went to bat for me every time I had an issue. That included times when I did the work. There is almost no substitute for having a good dealer.

If the quick disconnects were a recall that changes the circumstances - because recalls are always safety-related federal law requires the dealership to perform the repair at no charge to the customer. I am not positive on the accuracy of the following statement but I don't believe a customer is allowed to perform a recall. I have certainly never allowed it. With what amounts to a federal mandate a dealer would be foolish to not be in compliance. There has to be certainty, or as much certainty as there is with any work performed, that it was done correctly and theoretically that means the dealer has the appropriate skill sets within the store to do the job.

As far as the Kawasaki dealer? He needs to be fired.
 
If the quick disconnects were a recall that changes the circumstances - because recalls are always safety-related federal law requires the dealership to perform the repair at no charge to the customer. I am not positive on the accuracy of the following statement but I don't believe a customer is allowed to perform a recall. I have certainly never allowed it. With what amounts to a federal mandate a dealer would be foolish to not be in compliance. There has to be certainty, or as much certainty as there is with any work performed, that it was done correctly and theoretically that means the dealer has the appropriate skill sets within the store to do the job.

As far as the Kawasaki dealer? He needs to be fired.
I believe that you are correct about the recall being done by the shop. Triumph tried in every way possible to claim there was no problem despite pic's of several bikes that caught fire. When I was talking to them the recall was not in effect. When Triumph did go through with the recall, most guys who knew anything about it had already done the fix themselves to all metal connectors that had an automatic cut off in them. Triumph did a cheap fix providing a connector without the cut off and still plastic. When you used the recall QD you would get a spray of gas without the cut off. Not a good thing in a pressurized system. That Big K guy was a saint compared to Corleo. He well known among long time Triumph riders.
 
There's a local independent shop owner that says he can do an LT clutch in half the book time, which I think is 12 hours. He also said when he worked at a local BMW dealer, he made 6 figures because he could make time. So, according to him, he can do a 12 hour job in 6 hours. A dealer might love this.

It is true you may have some exceptional individuals that can do incredible things. But you can't base repair times on exceptional individuals as they are few and far between and most of the time unobtainable. Repair times need to be based on average technicians. Granted, not the ideal but how else would you handle it?

In addition, if you have a tech that is that fast and can also produce the same level of quality, impossible for most folks, he deserves to get paid the 12 hours. Why? Why be that fast and that good in order to make less? It doesn't equate.
 
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