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2005 R1200RT Final drive failure

Well, their legal advisors seem to saying to them: "deny a few rather than pay for all". To them, this is purely a financial matter, no question about it.
IF a recall of 100,000 RT FDs were to be required at a cost of $3K each, they'd be looking at a $300-million outlay...BMW can pay a lot of lawyers for that kind of money.

But I maintain that it's a "chicken-egg" proposition...by paying a little more for better bearings (or whatever), the number of complaints might decrease, and the legal bill might be lower.
This is a "Quality" issue that goes to the heart of their (any) manufacturing organization, and lawyers are simply a "band-aid" for flawed decision making, poor quality and bad customer service.

I found this "admission" of quality issues by BMW in an old issue of Motorcycle news, from 2008:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/N...tember/1-7/sep0108-bmw-admit-quality-problems

Good News: Sales are up!
Bad News: So are Quality Issues!

So, of course BMW knows there are problems, but in the interest of shareholder value, do not see it necessary (yet) to address them. We are left with only legal recourse, or are we?
Witness the ($1.5-billion?) settlement reached with Toyota this week following their "unexpected acceleration" debacle. "Quality isn't expensive, it's priceless!"

Perhaps we could attack this via BMW's quality program? For what it's worth, BMW is ISO-registered--which means there must be proscribed methods for systemic review of all internal processes, from design through customer satisfaction. Maybe there is an avenue to be taken that would cause BMW to reconsider their treatment of "non-conforming product" under threat of ISO de-certification? Or would we just get a corrective action report?

We clearly need a bigger, or different kind of hammer. The one tool we all share the ability to recommend (or to denounce) this company, its products and its customer service practices.

None of these quality issues really matter, until they happen to -you-!
 
Bearing troubles

The large bearing in the FD on our bikes is a known failure site. I don't understand how BMW could have under-engineered this piece. FWD cars like my SAAB use sealed bearings in their front wheels and they are much smaller and I've not had one fail in 600,000 miles of use. They are not serviceable and neither are they very expensive. They are easily removed and replaced. Why doesn't BMW wake up and smell the roses?
 
The sealed bearing is, indeed "lifetime lubricated" and although it is immersed in the FD lubricant, it is sealed in (grease) and does not benefit from any oil changes, at any interval.

The large grooved ball bearing on the hexhead FD is on the dry side of the oil seal. It does not sit in the oil bath.
 
The large bearing in the FD on our bikes is a known failure site. I don't understand how BMW could have under-engineered this piece. FWD cars like my SAAB use sealed bearings in their front wheels and they are much smaller and I've not had one fail in 600,000 miles of use. They are not serviceable and neither are they very expensive. They are easily removed and replaced. Why doesn't BMW wake up and smell the roses?

Their crappy bearings from their vendor which is why when Hemy's BMW rebuilt mine they used after market not BMW. They have never had a problem with their aftermarket bearings such as SKF.
 
I know this has been thrown out before... BUT... Why not an ombudsman from the club that can bring up ...Significant ...problems to the company heads ie final drives, abs modulators that cost $2,300 ?Fuel strips Etc. we have thousands of members that buy their very expensive product, shouldn't we have some clout?...?



Well we do have power we just have to use it??? But I guess if your invited to Germany and product launches there might be a conflict of interest??
 
I know this has been thrown out before... BUT... Why not an ombudsman from the club that can bring up ...Significant ...problems to the company heads ie final drives, abs modulators that cost $2,300 ?Fuel strips Etc. we have thousands of members that buy their very expensive product, shouldn't we have some clout?...?



Well we do have power we just have to use it??? But I guess if your invited to Germany and product launches there might be a conflict of interest??

Yes, and maybe.

While we have always had "the power" to affect BMW NA, only a massive boycott of their product (any BMW shaft-driven bikes since 2005) would likely get their attention, and I don't see that happening. Besides, given their grouchy, defensive nature, they would probably just retreat back to Europe from a shrinking American market demand, and who wants that?!

As for those who are privileged to attend product launches in Germany (won't ever be me - have been too vocal about the FD situation - even had a one-on-one conversation with Petier DeWaal at the Bloomsburg Rally about it), those are oppurtunities for your magazine staff or MOA officers to get a good look at upcoming models and report back to the general membership. That's a good thing.

The FD situation will continue to frustrate MOA members for years to come, and ironically, if and when the problem is finally solved, no one will actually know for many years after that! :scratch
 
Kevin that's my point...product launches are all well in good but if you are (technically ) my employee, shouldn't you be my advocate? Rather have them tell me my abs modulator when it fails can get parts for or something other than paying...$2,300 for anew one?
 
Kevin that's my point...product launches are all well in good but if you are (technically ) my employee, shouldn't you be my advocate? Rather have them tell me my abs modulator when it fails can get parts for or something other than paying...$2,300 for anew one?

I feel your pain, and I don't have all the answers. Sorry.

While the MOA does have a 'soft consumer advocate' approach for member concerns, it's rarely adversarial enough to nudge BMW NA to action - more like a 'dialogue' with the mother ship.

While BMW's long rode the coat tails of their once "reliable, bullet-proof" reputation, earned when compared to many other brands during the 60's, 70's and 80's, the new reality is that when all systems are working well, the bike runs great, but when (and not 'if') it breaks, it breaks BIG.

DIY only goes so far and does not appeal to everyone, and some components on these bikes are simply astronomical in price. Complex function, an extended overseas supply chain, greedy mark-up, very limited warehouse inventory in Pennsylvania and other factors all contribute to this dilema. It's not exactly something any dealership clarifies for you when you walk in the door as a perspective first customer. Duh.

If you feel a repair issue (classic example: the final drives) has become chronic, I suggest you access the NHTSA and fill out a formal complaint on their web site.

Or, if sufficiently frustrated, switch brands (you wouldn't be the first), and send a letter off to BMW NA as to why, for now, you jumped ship.

Hopefully somewhere between your local post office and the corporate mega-shredder in Berlin, someone will actually read your correspondence. :deal
 
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BMW North America????????

My FD gave up the ghost at about 100,000 miles (161,000 Kms) on my 2005 RT. I suppose 100,000 miles maybe reasonable for the life span of a final drive, I don't really know, but I think they should go farther with todays technology. In this thread and others the name BMW North America is mentioned several times. My RT is a Canadian bike and I was in the USA when it failed. I ride in Arizona each winter. GO AZ BMW in Scottsdale were great and attempted to get a financial assist from BMW. There seemed to be some type of misunderstanding with the rep., Canadian bike, huh?, we can't find the serial number in our files, what's a Canada, eh?

So, does BMW North America realize that there are two countries involved, do they talk to each other, are there any plans for riders breaking down in the neighbouring country? Do they care? I usually have three or four relatively new BMWs in my garage. I have in the past bought a new bike every two years. I was due to purchase in 2011, but did not, due to the final drive issue. I still can't decide whether to get a new bike or not and I am not sure what is holding me back. It is not the money, I have that set aside, I think it must be some sort of a trust issue.

The last time I dropped into my dealer, the staff asked me where I have been. Well, now that my bikes are off warranty, I do all my own service, such as replacing plugs, for a third of the cost than at the dealer, change and balance my own tires, change oil and filters, flush brakes etc.

I am not annoyed about the financial loss so much, I am retired and can afford a few toys. I think my concern is that I trusted BMW, but when they had a problem that left me stranded on the side of the road, I was treated like I was riding a Honda or something. It was like they were hiding something in plain sight by not at least acknowledging there was a problem with "some" final drives. The drive shaft failed on the RT a month after the final drive and I accepted I had a lot of good miles on the bike, so it didn't bother me that much, but I was stranded in the middle of nowhere again. I have just kept fixing them and I will likely not buy a new bike in 2013 either.

The salesmen talk a good line, mentioning BMWNA a lot, road side assistance anywhere, etc., as if it were one big happy family. But I still have my doubts. I really like BMW motorcycles, the fit, the technology and the handling. But, if BMW expects loyalty from us, and want to expand the North American market, they have to reciprocate even if it is a sorry dude letter we can't help you, but here is a coupon for a free, authentic BMW coffee mug. Or possibly, we called the Canadian rep and he said the bike was too old, too many miles for assistance, but here is his telephone number if you want to talk to him in person. At least you know they considered it. BMW may have good lawyers, but good PR guys will sell more bikes. It doesn't take much effort to keep one in the family and at this point in time I think it is the individual dealers that are filling that role.

(This is post is officially designated as an opinion and a non-rant)

Dash 2005 R1200RT, 2007 R1200R, 2009 K1300GT
 
I agree one hundred percent.....instead of the straight faced service writer at bergen bmw who says to me while looking me in the eye (2008 rt with 8,400 miles and 2 months out of warranty)

" fuel strips ? No never seen one go we can't call BMWNA you are out of warranty.... You'll have to call them "

ha ha ha ha ha I says to myself...never buying a bike here... Went to cross country bmw in metuchen where they said hey let us give bmw a call and see what we can do.....fixed under warranty thanks cross country and owner Dan Notte .....
 
Preventive Maintenance

"The large bearing in the FD on our bikes is a known failure site."

I do believe I'll be putting in the NSK bearing as a preventative measure. Seems to be the only MAJOR weak point in the whole bike. I'd hate to be on a trip somewhere on my 2006 R1200RT and have this bearing fail!
 
"The large bearing in the FD on our bikes is a known failure site."

I do believe I'll be putting in the NSK bearing as a preventative measure. Seems to be the only MAJOR weak point in the whole bike. I'd hate to be on a trip somewhere on my 2006 R1200RT and have this bearing fail!

I just ordered the NSK replacement bearing ($109) from Rob at Hermy's in PA. He keeps them in stock. 610-562-7303.
 
i got a 2010 r12r which loves me

but it probably ain't gonna be replaced with another bmw. weak dealer network is one issue but let's face it... bmw's just ain't all they're cracked up to be. there may be emotional or 'image' reasons for buying one but few if any technical reasons.

in any case, for the kind of riding i do i'm really, really liking this machine. its got all the emotional/ technical/ dealer support stuff i would ever need need.
fwiw, i really think a retro bmw would sell well in the u.s.

8264528178_388fc73d38.jpg
 
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but it probably ain't gonna be replaced with another bmw. weak dealer network is one issue but let's face it... bmw's just ain't all they're cracked up to be. there may be emotional or 'image' reasons for buying one but few if any technical reasons.

in any case, for the kind of riding i do i'm really, really liking this machine. its got all the emotional/ technical/ dealer support stuff i would ever need need.
fwiw, i really think a retro bmw would sell well in the u.s.

View attachment 36696

It would be nice if Team Green came out with something like that, but whenever they do, it doesn't sell well. The ZRX1200 comes to mind and then the Zephyr before that.
 
2009 BMW R1200RT Main Bearing Failure

The precision bearing of which the main bearing is comprised, has a grease seal that broke down and ultimately allowed the grease to leak out (resulting in the cage that holds the bearings in place disintegrating), and into the body of the FD. The question that I have is whether the bearing seal failure was as a result of other components failing such as the seals within the FD failing and causing oil loss (the pinion and ring were in perfect shape BTW), or if the bearing failure subsequently led to the catastrophic failure of the seals based on the compromised state of the drive (and subsequent lateral movement of the hollow driven axle shaft that is attached to the flange to which the wheel is attached). Anyone who has experienced FD failure and has anecdotal evidence is welcome to chime in here. Those who have the vintage 2005-2013 R class bikes I would be particularly interested to hear from in this regard..

Thanks!

Jeff
 
The precision bearing of which the main bearing is comprised, has a grease seal that broke down and ultimately allowed the grease to leak out (resulting in the cage that holds the bearings in place disintegrating), and into the body of the FD. The question that I have is whether the bearing seal failure was as a result of other components failing such as the seals within the FD failing and causing oil loss (the pinion and ring were in perfect shape BTW), or if the bearing failure subsequently led to the catastrophic failure of the seals based on the compromised state of the drive (and subsequent lateral movement of the hollow driven axle shaft that is attached to the flange to which the wheel is attached). Anyone who has experienced FD failure and has anecdotal evidence is welcome to chime in here. Those who have the vintage 2005-2013 R class bikes I would be particularly interested to hear from in this regard..

Thanks!

Jeff
Jeff,

I'm confused. The "main bearing" - I must assume is the crown wheel big bearing (the one near the wheel flange), which is external to the actual drive. This had a seal fail and the grease from it somehow found it's way into the drive?

I believe if that bearing fails - the shaft of the crown gear will move around, likely enough to damage the seal for the shaft in the rear-drive housing. I think that's what you're asking..

BTW - I think it might be a tad more understandable if you broke out your questions into separate paragraphs, just for readability and to make it easier to formulate a reply.
 
fwiw, i really think a retro bmw would sell well in the u.s.

As far as I know - there is still a waiting list for the R-Nine-T (at my local dealer the list has quite a few people on it.) That's about as retro as BMW is going to get IMHO.. they're not coming out with a new airhead engine in the hope of capturing a small retro market for one.
 
Another opinion

The one thing I have yet to read is that like anything mechanical, there is a timeline of service given its use.
My 2006 RT was close to 80,000 km's when I had the FD rebuilt at my expense. I usually ride two up and like anything mechanical there is wear and indeed an expected life. These final drives dont last forever, nothing does. I have issues with BMW for several reasons, but I also respect the fact that even with scheduled maintenance, all things mechanical wear out.
I ride my bike like I rented it, usually two of us are on it and I avoid Freeway boredom whenever possible. Getting 80,000 km's out of my final drive did not seem like too much to ask and having it rebuilt gives me some belief I will be able to safely get another 80k. Oddly, my bike tracks straighter now that it has been rebuilt. I would not have asked my engine to go that far without changing the oil and everything is based on expectations. I expect my bike to get me home because I maintain its' functionality. Valve adjustment, throttle body sync, spline lube, etc. I did change all drive fluids without any encouragement from forums or the manufacturer. I changed the fluids for peace of mind knowing it was for the bast of my riding experience and personal safety.
I don't like that BMW decided to change the turn signals to left hand only. It did not take long to adjust from my old trustly Concours to the BMW way of thinking and I believe they sold out in an effort to sell more bikes to those who rode other brands and whined about the switchgear after one ride.
Don't get me wrong. I am not defending BMW in any manner regarding final drives. I defend those who maintain their ride and who understand that there is no life expectancy for anything. One who rides to work solo without gear and never exceeds 4000 rpm may experience failure before the guy who rides cross country two up at 4500 rpm. Nothing is a given in life. Just go and ride and maintain the bike as you see fit.
Ride to live, live to ride safely!
Peace
 
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