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2011 R1200 GS - Clutch spline lubrication - Toronto Motorcycle Show

141987

New member
Yesterday, at the Toronto Motorcycle show, I asked a representative from BMW Motorrad whether my bike required clutch spline lubrication. He told me that it does not. He appeared to be aware of this issue\topic when I brought it up.

I think he might have indicated that earlier models (1100s???) did??? I am not sure.

But in any event, he said that mine did not.

So either:

  • he is correct about my bike, or
  • he doesn't really know, and he simply told me what he thought I wanted to hear about my bike, or
  • he was deliberately misleading me about my bike.

At 46,000 km, I haven't noticed any problems yet. Unless I do, I can't see myself spending thousands to take the bike apart to lube the splines, since there is no mention of it, that I can find, in the BMW Repair CD 6th edition, nor in my owner's manual.

Down the road, if it should come to light that BMW was covering up a major $$$ maintenance issue that they knew about and that they should have disclosed to me when I was deciding whether or not to buy the bike, that is the type of thing that I would be livid about.

Dave McDougall
2100 R1200GS
 
The JVB video demonstrates lubing the spline shaft. Simple process, especially when servicing final drive. Think it's cheap insurance for a very costly problem:wave
 
The JVB video demonstrates lubing the spline shaft. Simple process, especially when servicing final drive. Think it's cheap insurance for a very costly problem:wave
Dave is talking about clutch splines, t6pilot is talking about drive shaft splines. I know you need to lube the drive shaft splines, not so sure about clutch splines. My '05 1200GS went 100K+ without clutch spline lube and it didn't appear to be any worse for the wear when the cltch was replaced.

Of course Dave is riding a year 2100 1200GS so maybe they don't even have clutches or splines:wow
 
BMW didn't specify clutch clutch spline lube on the classic K (K75, K100, K1100) bikes. Grind/screetch. Oops. $2,000

BMW didn't specify clutch spline lube on the R1100 and R1150 bikes. Grind/screetch. Oops. $3,000 minimum.

Now BMW doesn't specify clutch spline lube on the R1200 bikes. Whoopee! I am eternally grateful and overjoyed.
 
One other thing I forgot to mention. In Canada, BMW sells their bikes with 3 year unlimited mileage warranty (probably because they figure our riding season is so short they are not assuming that much risk). My bike is under warranty until July 2014 and I expect to have at least 100,000 km on it by then. If it fails during that period, I expect that it would be repaired under warranty.
 
As usual, Glaves is right

You have had your bike HOW LONG and not lubed splines?

I had a Honda ST1100 for about 10 years - overlapped with an R100RT I also had for about 10 years. Yes, even with the major home appliance grade reliability (and absolute lack of "BMW'isque" drama), ALL the splines had to be lubed. Even as early as 97-98 saw LOTS of comments from ST11 owners warning of such. And the Honda remedy for worn splines hurt in the wallet too. Bad. Real bad. Copper Clapper Caper bad.

Due to some health issues, my 07R12RT has only 8K miles now. Am already thinking about going ahead with lubing splines soon. JVB is about to get an order. :violin
 
You have had your bike HOW LONG and not lubed splines?

7 1/2 years (75,000 miles).

Due to some health issues, my 07R12RT has only 8K miles now. Am already thinking about going ahead with lubing splines soon. JVB is about to get an order. :violin

Does Jim's current DVD include splitting the bike in two to get to the clutch splines? I know his first version didn't. The splines covered in his first version were one of the three sets of splines in the drive line (where the drive shaft meets the final drive). Drive shaft to transmission output and clutch to transmission input were not covered.

I will lube my clutch to transmission input splines if/when I have an issue assuming I still own the bike. To date there have been minimal reports of clutch spline issues on the R1200 hexhead bikes. That may well change as the bikes get older. :dunno
 
Clutch splines.

As of now the basic design of any Boxer BMW clutch is extremely similiar to a typical car type - seperate engine, dry clutch, and then transmission.
In this layout there is NO REASON for lubing clutch splines, some auto manufactures use stainless steel clutch disc hubs - that is it, it's less for a life of the clutch or engine.
I don't know about you, but I never heard of recommendation (as a preventive maintenance) lubing clutch splines by any car manufacture.
 
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As of now the basic design of any Boxer BMW clutch is extremely similiar to a typical car type - seperate engine, dry clutch, and then transmission.
In this layout there is NO REASON for lubing clutch splines.

Except for the inconvenient fact that on BMW motorcycles they wear if they aren't periodically cleaned and lubricated. But other than that little problem, I suppose they are just like cars.

Oh, and as for that "basic layout" back in the Airhead days BMW did say lube them once every year, even though car guys weren't saying that.
 
Not to be contentious Paul, but I have heard of exactly one clutch spline failure on a hexhead (and none on camheads.) Since there are a lot of hexheads out there running around with well over 100k miles on them now, it would seem if this remained as a real "problem" - we would have seen more complaints of failed clutch splines.

Have you received reports of clutch spline failures I may have missed? I'm fairly active on about 4 different hexhead forums, and you know how people like to scream about any failure.. I have seen a number that have been apart for oil seal replacement, with no wear evident, even on what appeared to be quite dry splines.

Mine has 62,000 miles on it, and so far no indication I can find (I haven't disassembled it) that the splines are ready to fail.
 
Lubing up your SPLINES

Not to be contentious Paul, but I have heard of exactly one clutch spline failure on a hexhead (and none on camheads.) Since there are a lot of hexheads out there running around with well over 100k miles on them now, it would seem if this remained as a real "problem" - we would have seen more complaints of failed clutch splines.

Have you received reports of clutch spline failures I may have missed? I'm fairly active on about 4 different hexhead forums, and you know how people like to scream about any failure.. I have seen a number that have been apart for oil seal replacement, with no wear evident, even on what appeared to be quite dry splines.

Mine has 62,000 miles on it, and so far no indication I can find (I haven't disassembled it) that the splines are ready to fail.

I ask
Is it whether they need lubed or something much deeper?

If we are not to Lube our splines on the hexheads Then how are we to start a conversation with our fellow BMW riders?

In the past the first thing you ask of a fellow rider at any gathering was "HAVE YOU LUBED YOUR SPLINES YET???"
What are we to do now???
Oh I know, " HOW MANY FUEL STRIPS HAVE YOU HAD REPLACED"

Just sayin
Dave
 
Except for the inconvenient fact that on BMW motorcycles they wear if they aren't periodically cleaned and lubricated. But other than that little problem, I suppose they are just like cars.

Oh, and as for that "basic layout" back in the Airhead days BMW did say lube them once every year, even though car guys weren't saying that.

Paul- there you go again, letting facts get in the way of perfectly good theory. I sure hope you don't plan to run for Congress in your retirement, you'd never get along with their methodology.
However, if the Hex/Camheads have gotten to the point of not needing spline lubes... Yay!
 
Not to be contentious Paul, but I have heard of exactly one clutch spline failure on a hexhead (and none on camheads.) Since there are a lot of hexheads out there running around with well over 100k miles on them now, it would seem if this remained as a real "problem" - we would have seen more complaints of failed clutch splines.

Have you received reports of clutch spline failures I may have missed? I'm fairly active on about 4 different hexhead forums, and you know how people like to scream about any failure.. I have seen a number that have been apart for oil seal replacement, with no wear evident, even on what appeared to be quite dry splines.

Mine has 62,000 miles on it, and so far no indication I can find (I haven't disassembled it) that the splines are ready to fail.

I have said all along Don, that I don't know if BMW has finally fixed the spline lube problem on the `1200s. Maybe they finally have. I think it is too early to tell - a few high mileage successes notwithstanding. Tom Cutter is at least cautiously optimistic. Coming apart dry is not a good sign, but if dry there are not signs of fretting corrosion that is a good sign.

But the mere fact that people keep saying that BMW doesn't schedule it as required maintenance so it isn't needed is claptrap balderdash. BMW didn't schedule it on late model Airheads, classic K bikes, or Oilheads, and hundreds of failures later people still say "BMW didn't schedule it so it isn't needed." That line of reasoning has cost owners hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.

Time will tell. I hope they don't need it because the need for spline lubes is a huge, expensive pain. But the fact that BMW doesn't schedule it at a certain interval is totally meaningless. Lots of miles on lots of bikes without failure will be meaningful. Until then, I am suspicious without certain knowledge.

The issue will go away of course on the Wethead - with a front mounted wet clutch.
 
Maintenance.

Except for the inconvenient fact that on BMW motorcycles they wear if they aren't periodically cleaned and lubricated. But other than that little problem, I suppose they are just like cars.

Oh, and as for that "basic layout" back in the Airhead days BMW did say lube them once every year, even though car guys weren't saying that.



At the Airhead days car guys were lubricaiting U-joints, ball joints and replacing ignition points - even on the motorcycles.

:thumb
 
I have said all along Don, that I don't know if BMW has finally fixed the spline lube problem on the `1200s. Maybe they finally have. I think it is too early to tell - a few high mileage successes notwithstanding. Tom Cutter is at least cautiously optimistic. Coming apart dry is not a good sign, but if dry there are not signs of fretting corrosion that is a good sign.

But the mere fact that people keep saying that BMW doesn't schedule it as required maintenance so it isn't needed is claptrap balderdash. BMW didn't schedule it on late model Airheads, classic K bikes, or Oilheads, and hundreds of failures later people still say "BMW didn't schedule it so it isn't needed." That line of reasoning has cost owners hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years.

Time will tell. I hope they don't need it because the need for spline lubes is a huge, expensive pain. But the fact that BMW doesn't schedule it at a certain interval is totally meaningless. Lots of miles on lots of bikes without failure will be meaningful. Until then, I am suspicious without certain knowledge.

The issue will go away of course on the Wethead - with a front mounted wet clutch.

Paul,

Interesting thread on BMW Sport-Touring (mostly an RT list, but other bikes are discussed..) in the hexhead section, by a chap who is (IMHO unnecessarily) replacing his clutch disk at 110k miles:

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=812784#Post812784

I've asked if he could take photos of the male/female splines so we can see how they look after 100k miles. Hopefully he'll do so. That might (or might not) put your concern to rest. He did mention in the thread: "Splines look good--no rust."

BTW - no argument at all with your feeling that since BMW doesn't spec it it isn't needed.. If I had a nickle for everything BMW wrongly didn't spec, or mis-spec'd service on between my cars and bikes, I'd have enough for a good 6 pack of German beer. :wow I think my reasoning is - we have a lot of bikes with more then 100k miles on them with very few (only one I know of) evidencing a spline problem, so it is possible BMW has "solved" the problem.
 
Paul,

Interesting thread on BMW Sport-Touring (mostly an RT list, but other bikes are discussed..) in the hexhead section, by a chap who is (IMHO unnecessarily) replacing his clutch disk at 110k miles:

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=812784#Post812784

I've asked if he could take photos of the male/female splines so we can see how they look after 100k miles. Hopefully he'll do so. That might (or might not) put your concern to rest. He did mention in the thread: "Splines look good--no rust."

BTW - no argument at all with your feeling that since BMW doesn't spec it it isn't needed.. If I had a nickle for everything BMW wrongly didn't spec, or mis-spec'd service on between my cars and bikes, I'd have enough for a good 6 pack of German beer. :wow I think my reasoning is - we have a lot of bikes with more then 100k miles on them with very few (only one I know of) evidencing a spline problem, so it is possible BMW has "solved" the problem.

As noted in the frequent comparisons to single plate dry clutch cars, it shouldn't be a problem but it historically has been. I certainly hope they cured it on the R1200s. If I was convinced they did, I might buy one.

But that new, more complex, wet clutch at the front on the Wethead sure is interesting. Since they went to those lengths to completely redesign the clutch in a manner that can be serviced without removing the transmission I wonder about their confidence level in the old designs.
 
Paul,

The thread referenced on the Sport/Touring forum has been added to - with photos of the splines. They actually look quite good to me for 110k miles. There is some wear evident on the clutch center, almost none on the input shaft of the transmission. The chap doing it notes that the old clutch splines have worn to the pattern of the input shaft, and that the new clutch disk splines seem to fit better.

FWIW - I have been known to reassemble a K100 clutch that looked much like these splines, with some decent moly grease, and AFAIK - 10 years later and about 80k miles later, that clutch is still in use.
 
Paul,

The thread referenced on the Sport/Touring forum has been added to - with photos of the splines. They actually look quite good to me for 110k miles. There is some wear evident on the clutch center, almost none on the input shaft of the transmission. The chap doing it notes that the old clutch splines have worn to the pattern of the input shaft, and that the new clutch disk splines seem to fit better.

FWIW - I have been known to reassemble a K100 clutch that looked much like these splines, with some decent moly grease, and AFAIK - 10 years later and about 80k miles later, that clutch is still in use.

I would be happy with those at 110K. I would lube them and put them back together. I have done that several times with splines that were more worn than those. The fact that they went 110K and had little lube, but are not significantly worn gives me some hope.
 
The new clutch design addresses at least two obvious issues- the better modulation of a wet clutch and ease of replacement when needed. Should reduce some of the splitting of the bike type of work needed by older models for some repairs. Not so sure it has much, if anything, to do with defects in the dry clutch of recent R models.
The tradeoff of putting clutch dust into the oil so it needs to be filtered out is interesting- wonder if it will have impact on motor life of the new model.
I wonder if it will share parts with the wet clutches on recent K bikes...
 
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