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Jim -

At some point, I would want to get some kind of consensus on oils/brands to test. I haven't thought that far ahead...kind of waiting for the organization here at my work to give me some guidance.

My thoughts were:

- have some connection to past oils tested (for continuity in different tests)
- concentrate on SG/SH rated oils, maybe include oils that have a later grade but still "meet" SG/SH (so that say!)
- I don't want to get too wild and crazy about viscosities...the Airheads take 20w50, maybe 10w40 in some situations
- some mix of dino and synthetic and semi-synthetic

As this moves forward, I would take a look at what people suggest plus oils that I've heard about in recent discussions.

RE: the Redline...can those zinc and phosphorus numbers be right? If the numbers of 0.25% and 0.21% are right, that's bordering on being too much from the reading I've been doing. I think that more is not necessarily better.

This all sounds good to me, Kurt! I think you're developing a good approach that will yield informative results.

In regard to the Red Line oil, the zinc/phosphorus levels certainly appear higher than any of the analysis in the Di Carlo article (although I haven't converted from %wt to ppm, so it may not be as big a difference as it appears?). I did poke around on the Spectro and Mobile 1 websites looking for info, but didn't see any posted data on their wear additives (my web-sleuthing skills are marginal, so it may be there and I just didn't see it!). My thought was that the Red Line posting was unique in the sense of it could give you manufacturer data to compare against if you include it in this analysis.

This is a neat project- looking forward to the results!
 
(although I haven't converted from %wt to ppm, so it may not be as big a difference as it appears?)

I, too, wondered about the conversion. But from I've seen, multiplying the percent weight by 10000 gives ppm. So, 0.25% is 2500 ppm. This assumes that the % is percent of weight and we want parts per million by weight.
 
past oil test

Hi 20744: The information may be too dated, but Alan G of the INOA had done an oil analisist of several brands more than a few years ago. This included Red Line. If you like I will try to find it. Frank Coleman I went to find it. try www.inoanorton.com/docs/OilTemp.pdf
 
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Thanks, Frank. Seems that it more about oil temps...what's been the focus in the past is basic oil chemistry and the protection it provides for wear and corrosion. I was considering just continuing that process with new oils today with links to popular oils from the past.
 
That's going to hurt!

I received some information about various tests along with costs. The tests that seem interesting and useful to me are:

- oil spectrometry or ICP -- provides chemical analysis of the oil (essentially what's been done in the past)
- viscosity at 40 and 100C -- this would tell how good the blending was to create the given weight of oil
- TAN/TBN -- total acid number and total base number; this provides information on the quality of the additive package

Costs (per bottle) are around:

- ICP -- $50
- Viscosity -- $65
- TAN/TBN -- $100

I guess I can see why only the oil chemistry was done in the past, and only 10-15 bottles were tested, with limitiatons for weight and dino/synth!!
 
Homage to Oil

I saw this "oil tree" in the lobby of one of the buildings where I work...they perform commerical testing for large companies. Up near the top are some oils in the paper containers...I remember those well!
 

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If there's been some updated analysis recently, I've not seen it. But my concern would be the different outcomes needed for air-cooled bikes made in the 60s thru the 80s/90s (/2 and Airhead eras) versus what a water-cooled car needs that was manufactured since 2000 and which undergoes relatively frequent overhauls (if raced). Racers need to reduce frictional losses...not something we're that concerned about on our bikes.

I've read through the focused discussions starting with what Paul Glaves announced in the June 1999 ON about BMWs service bulletins at the time API ratings were changing from SG/SH to SJ and cautioned against their use (possibly a warranty issue). SJ oils dropped the ZDDP content (to no more than 1000 ppm) in favor or less harm on catalytic converters but the bulletins seemed to indicate that if the bottle indicated continued adherence to SG/SH, it might be OK to use. I can't see how you can meet SJ but still have the higher ZDDP levels (typically >1200 ppm) in SG/SH. Jeff DiCarlo followed up this with his analysis in October 1999. That article is on the IBMWR webste:

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html

I have also read the four updates done by Matt Parkhouse that first showed up in 2002 and the last was in 2009 (two articles that year).

My next door neighbor is an AMS oil independent distributor and I got a hard copy of a pamphlet ("A Study of Motorcycle Oils", second edition, June 2009) which is on the web if you google it. As you can imagine, AMS oil comes out with top honors but the pamphlet does describe a whole range of tests that were performed...some which we could repeat.

My thought was to update the analyses that had already been done in order to see what oils have changed formulation and to investigate new oils that are now offered. All of the ON analyses have been limited to anti-wear (ZDDP) and anti-corrosion (Ca/Mg etc.) These tests are somewhat easy to do using a spectrograph process measuring the oil vapors when they are hit with an arc.

The AMS oil pamphlet has other tests that I would like to see but are probably very costly:

- viscosity grade -- where does an oil stand in the spec range for a 40w or 50w oil
- wear indicator (4-ball) -- measures the oils ability to minimize wear in metal-to-metal contact. Unfortunately, it appears that there's no direct relationship between zinc levels and minimizing wear.
- volatiliy -- how much of the additive package burns off over time
- acid neutralization -- this helps prevent internal damage over time due to build of acids. This seems like it might be good for bikes that are not ridden that often or stored in winter. It is a strong point for synthetics which is part of why they suggest longer drain intervals when using synthetics.

These tests would require substantial time and money. I plan to discuss some of this with co-workers and get some recommendations for important tests.

Then the hard part will be to get a selection of oils to test. To some degree we should draw from past tests to monitor if there's been any changes. But at the same time, there are many "favorite" oils with varying prices, some you have to buy over the web, some you can get at the local store. I'd want to focus on oils that are labeled SG/SH as well as demonstrate differences in protection if you go beyond this rating.

For a good oil site ( that doesn't sell a product & has lots of oil analysis ) go to Bob the Oil Guy's site. Also many of the manufacturers show a lot of the info you are looking for. The big thing is to use a motorcycle specific oil, to my knowledge they all will meet the SG rating required in the older bikes. ie: airheads.
 
I received some information about various tests along with costs. The tests that seem interesting and useful to me are:

- oil spectrometry or ICP -- provides chemical analysis of the oil (essentially what's been done in the past)
- viscosity at 40 and 100C -- this would tell how good the blending was to create the given weight of oil
- TAN/TBN -- total acid number and total base number; this provides information on the quality of the additive package

Costs (per bottle) are around:

- ICP -- $50
- Viscosity -- $65
- TAN/TBN -- $100

I guess I can see why only the oil chemistry was done in the past, and only 10-15 bottles were tested, with limitiatons for weight and dino/synth!!


ouch... It's a shame that the pipeline company I work for only deals with gas and petroleum distillate, if we had the equipment for motor oil tested I would've loved to have helped out on this
 
Well, things aren't as pricey as I thought...at least they're cheaper than where I work!! I contacted Bently Tribology which bought National Tribology, the people that did all the past tests. Looks like we can get some really good tests (as far as I'm concerned). I like the second package:
 

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Well, things aren't as pricey as I thought...at least they're cheaper than where I work!! I contacted Bently Tribology which bought National Tribology, the people that did all the past tests. Looks like we can get some really good tests (as far as I'm concerned). I like the second package:

So are you going to test, clean unused oil or used oil from a bike? What everybody seems to worry about is the zinc/phosphorus level in the oils? Wear metals etc are kind of bike specific.

Something else to consider is that no doubt the company that does the testing keeps a data base. Is there a way, for a fee to do a search for the results from specific oils. It might save time & money.
 
So are you going to test, clean unused oil or used oil from a bike? What everybody seems to worry about is the zinc/phosphorus level in the oils? Wear metals etc are kind of bike specific.

I'm only considering new oil. Testing used oil is something that individual owner's would do and each bike will contaminate oil differently. Often times, testing used oil is done for a fleet situation to perform maintenance at an optimum time.

Something else to consider is that no doubt the company that does the testing keeps a data base. Is there a way, for a fee to do a search for the results from specific oils. It might save time & money.

Not sure something like that exists. What you'll probably find is some oils tested at one place and other oils tested at another place. I feel it's best to send oils to one place and get a snapshot in time.

I posted a link to a test performed by AMSOIL documented in 2009. They tested a wide range of factors, more than we would want to do. Probably cost them $25K to get all that done. They didn't test the kind of oils that I think we might be interested in.
 
Ready for oils to test

With a better handle on the costs, and a likely place to test, I think we've reached a point where we should make a stab at which oils to test.

My first choice would be to consider 20w50 only as that's the oil that the Airheads should use a majority of the time. We're interested in the SG/SH rated oil and also to see if those oils that indicate they meet SG/SH while also meeting SJ or higher are good enough for our purposes. Certainly, we should look at both dino and synthetics.

I would like to see some standards tested that allow us to compare to the past analyses. That probably means we'll test a couple of the products offered by BMW along with Spectro.

At any rate, let's make a list which can then be evaluated for final selection. Here's what I've seen posted so far:

Liqui Moly Racing 4T
Castrol Power RS V-Twin
Redline Synthetic
 
IMO, focusing on 20W50 motorcycle specific oils would be the place to start. Getting a snapshot in time (i.e. 2012) for such oils and their chemistry with a translation of the phosphorous and zinc to the ZDDP content would be very informative and useful.
 
With a better handle on the costs, and a likely place to test, I think we've reached a point where we should make a stab at which oils to test.

My first choice would be to consider 20w50 only as that's the oil that the Airheads should use a majority of the time. We're interested in the SG/SH rated oil and also to see if those oils that indicate they meet SG/SH while also meeting SJ or higher are good enough for our purposes. Certainly, we should look at both dino and synthetics.

I would like to see some standards tested that allow us to compare to the past analyses. That probably means we'll test a couple of the products offered by BMW along with Spectro.

At any rate, let's make a list which can then be evaluated for final selection. Here's what I've seen posted so far:

Liqui Moly Racing 4T
Castrol Power RS V-Twin
Redline Synthetic


- BMW dino 20w50
- Golden Spectro
- Liqui Moly Racing 4T 20w50
- Castrol 4T
- Shell Rotella
- Mobil 1
- Amsoil
- Redline Synthetic

can't think of many more that I've heard people using

p.s I'd be willing to chip in on this, at least to cover the Liqui Moly one, I'd even send you a clean sample. Like I said, I hate when they say an oil can be an SG and then also rate it up to an SL
 
Is that Shell Rotella the straight weight oil? A previous formula (multi-vis I think) was Shell Rotella T which has lowered their ZDDP lately.

I'll throw in another one that's come up on the vintage side (same consideration for ZDDP), due to the change in Rotella T is:

- Valvoline VR-1
 
Matrix of Past Oil Tests

From reading the two ON articles, these are the oils that were tested in the 20w50 weight. The gray shading are the oils that were tested in both rounds. It would be good to carry several of these into the next round.
 

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foaming and ability for oil to absorb and release heat

just returned from a 2k trip on my /6. Checked oil at approx 700 miles and it showed almost no consumption. Ran the bike pretty hard at Barber raceway (kept up with Ducati) and a couple of trips on the dragon tail and a long day at 70mph the oil light flashed on at stoplight. Checked and level was just above minimum. added 3/4 qt of Castrol 4t. Looks like the oil went through the right carb.

Question is this; Valvoline claims it has anti foaming ingredients. If crank ventilation is source of oil loss is there any data on what oil prevents foaming the best? I was using Spectro gold.

Some dragracing fiends (friends) seem to believe that synthetic oil doesn't absorbe engine heat as well as conventional. Any data on that?

Sorry if I hijacked zddp thread with other questions but since the topic is oil....
 
dpmonk -

Anti-foaming can be an important factor with oil and protection. I believe that this would be more important in a motorcycle where the engine and gearbox share the same oil. The rapidly spinning gears would tend to whip up the oil more than in our boxer engines.

But this oil quality was tested in the AMSOil article I mentioned previous. This test is ASTM D-892. You can read the whole article here:

http://wboil.com/pdf/Study-of-Motorcycle-Oils-2nd-Edition.pdf

As you can imagine, AMSOIL did quite well in this specific test as did other oils, specifically those in the 50w category. Valvoline 4-stroke oil was the brand they said they tested along with BMWs synthetic oils.

There were no tests for heat absorption and according to the article, absorbing heat can be a bad thing, for the oil. As the oil is heated, lighter fractions will vaporize...that's not a good thing. ASTM D-5800 measures this. Also, as oil is heated, the ability of it to maintain viscosity under shear loads is important. This is test ASTM D-5481.

These are tests that we would likely not preform due to cost constraints.
 
Synthetics in Airheads

Since I also own a hexhead I am interested in the synthetics oil, but how many people run Synthetic in Airheads successfully, with no seal leaks?

I recently had all the oil seals replaced in the /6 and really don't want to start anything since it is pretty oil tight now (except I am still losing oil through the updated breather).

On the other hand it seems to be a no brainer that the synthetics test better than conventional oils in wear tests and resistance to shear and thermal breakdown that would be really good in an engine that only uses 2 quarts of oil.
 
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