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Proficient cornering...

Get some professional training. That's my advice. You may go into the twisty back roads and drill bad habits over and over until they are impossible to break. I was licensed for a long tim ebefore I went to Lee Parks course, I had a LOT of bad habits and they still come out from time to time. The sooner you get some proper instruction and drill THOSE skills, the better off you will be. I took Lee's couse this spring, I'm going back next spring to do it again, then I'm going for level 2. My plan is to take a class or do a track day every year from now on.
I have a doosie of a decreasing radius entrance ramp on my commute. It used to scare the stuffing out of me, it's now one of my favorite turns. Taking Lee's course has made me a better cage driver as well due to the lessons learned about decreasing radius turns.
 
..........

One difficulty I have is on blind, decreasing radius right hand turns. I continually apex early, because it's hard for me to hug the outside of the lane with potential vehicle traffic coming the other way out of that blind turn. Any advice here? Thanks...

But what you are doing actually puts you in MORE danger. By apexing early, you have a bigger chance of running wide on the exit, which is the blind part of the turn.

My MO is to stay wide to increase the sight line, then wait until I can see the exit (or oncoming traffic encroaching) and dive to the apex. On LONG RH blind turns, I again enter wide, but if the exit does not come in view I will head to the fog line, or beyond and ride around the inside of the corner, making sure I always control my exit position, generally exiting on the fog line.
 
Complicated subject, for sure. I think the general advice for a left bend is to get as far right as you safely can and stay there until you see the end of the bend, when you can move to the center of the lane and then to the right.

For a right bend, get as far left as you can in your lane for the best visibility of the both the road and oncoming traffic. Again, the apex is unknown until you see it.

Unless you know the road well, presume there may be gravel. You may have to slow a little and alter you path of travel. On a right hand bend, predict that a car may cover part of your lane. You see that sooner but you have to get out of the way.

Correct speed in the corners depends not only what you see but also what you predict. 99% of the time, your dire predictions won't materialize and you could have zoomed through that corner far faster. It is the 1% that can kill you.
 
two cents

FWIW & IMHO Tho I loved CLASS and felt like I learned a great deal about riding at speed, I also felt like it assumed a little too knowledge and skill for me at the time I attended. Still a great confidence builder. Total Rider Tech, and The Lee Parks Class (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/) and ( (http://www.totalridertech.com/) have some great classroom, just-standing-on-the-carpet exercises to help you get a physical sense of what you ought to be doing prep'ing for a turn, being in a turn and exiting a turn. Then they have people spot your bike while you sit on it so you can practice that same set of skills at zero mph. Then they have you do some straight line exercises on your bike at low speed to develop throttle control (so does CLASS). Then cornering practice begins at low speed, 2nd gear, just enough speed to be able to lean the bike in the turn. Check out their video and find some kind of riding class. You'll have a ball in any of them and come out a much much more confident rider.

PS if I'm reading your post correctly, it sounds like you really need to get a handle on the idea of a late apex before you get in trouble. IK exactly what you mean about oncoming traffic, but it sounds as tho your technique is increasing the danger.
 
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Complicated subject, for sure. I think the general advice for a left bend is to get as far right as you safely can and stay there until you see the end of the bend, when you can move to the center of the lane and then to the right.

For a right bend, get as far left as you can in your lane for the best visibility of the both the road and oncoming traffic. Again, the apex is unknown until you see it.

Unless you know the road well, presume there may be gravel. You may have to slow a little and alter you path of travel. On a right hand bend, predict that a car may cover part of your lane. You see that sooner but you have to get out of the way.

Correct speed in the corners depends not only what you see but also what you predict. 99% of the time, your dire predictions won't materialize and you could have zoomed through that corner far faster. It is the 1% that can kill you.

Best reply so far...thanks!
 
FWIW & IMHO Tho I loved CLASS and felt like I learned a great deal about riding at speed, I also felt like it assumed a little too knowledge and skill for me at the time I attended. Still a great confidence builder. Total Rider Tech, and The Lee Parks Class (http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/) and ( (http://www.totalridertech.com/) have some great classroom, just-standing-on-the-carpet exercises to help you get a physical sense of what you ought to be doing prep'ing for a turn, being in a turn and exiting a turn. Then they have people spot your bike while you sit on it so you can practice that same set of skills at zero mph. Then they have you do some straight line exercises on your bike at low speed to develop throttle control (so does CLASS). Then cornering practice begins at low speed, 2nd gear, just enough speed to be able to lean the bike in the turn. Check out their video and find some kind of riding class. You'll have a ball in any of them and come out a much much more confident rider.

PS if I'm reading your post correctly, it sounds like you really need to get a handle on the idea of a late apex before you get in trouble. IK exactly what you mean about oncoming traffic, but it sounds as tho your technique is increasing the danger.

All true...but to mitigate the risk of apexing early, my speed is MUCH slower than required. In the time since this post, I've worked on staying outside until the exit appears, then heading to the apex. Getting better. Work in progress...thanks! :wave
 
No...I used to be in the Bay Area. Now in mountain states. Got a great set of roads to ride with lots of canyon twisties...so the advice someone gave to ride a bunch is what I'm doing. It IS getting better...BUT...

One difficulty I have is on blind, decreasing radius right hand turns. I continually apex early, because it's hard for me to hug the outside of the lane with potential vehicle traffic coming the other way out of that blind turn. Any advice here? Thanks...

Folks will be able to help you find a right school if you just inform everyone as to where you actually live. Mountain States is vague.
 
Best reply so far...thanks!

Thanks for the compliment. I suspect I have to make up for lack of skill by thinking. Not the best answer, but if you didn't start riding as a kid and can't find advanced training, reading and practicing what makes sense to you may well be the best answer to surviving on a bike.

Yesterday I took a 330 mile "local tour" ride with one friend. Lots of curvy roads. The thing that came back to me about cornering, is to lean your body to the side after you have set your entry speed. When you press the bars, your body is slightly to the inside of the turn and you rotate your head so your eyes stay parraell with the road as the bike leans.

Looking as far ahead as you can gives you a smooth line with just a bit of power on the throttle. Spare a glance for the surface too. Maybe you need a little brake so you can avoid a problem.

Not sure if this is helpful.
 
Thanks for the compliment. I suspect I have to make up for lack of skill by thinking. Not the best answer, but if you didn't start riding as a kid and can't find advanced training, reading and practicing what makes sense to you may well be the best answer to surviving on a bike.

Yesterday I took a 330 mile "local tour" ride with one friend. Lots of curvy roads. The thing that came back to me about cornering, is to lean your body to the side after you have set your entry speed. When you press the bars, your body is slightly to the inside of the turn and you rotate your head so your eyes stay parraell with the road as the bike leans.

Looking as far ahead as you can gives you a smooth line with just a bit of power on the throttle. Spare a glance for the surface too. Maybe you need a little brake so you can avoid a problem.

Not sure if this is helpful.

It's very helpful...especially the body lean part. I was on a ride the other day and consciously shifted my weight to the inside during the turn, and suddenly had a real sense of command over the bike's line and a sense of confidence as well. The reduction in required lean angle for the bike, while slight on most of the turns I made (not high speed cornering), was enough to make me feel "planted" on my line.

Unfortunately, our area is now besotted with forest fires, and visibility is a few miles at best, so my favorite winding road into the mountains isn't an enjoyable, or wise, ride right now. Additionally, the highway folks have decided to resurface the road, as well. Double whammy...
 
It's very helpful...especially the body lean part. I was on a ride the other day and consciously shifted my weight to the inside during the turn, and suddenly had a real sense of command over the bike's line and a sense of confidence as well. The reduction in required lean angle for the bike, while slight on most of the turns I made (not high speed cornering), was enough to make me feel "planted" on my line.

Unfortunately, our area is now besotted with forest fires, and visibility is a few miles at best, so my favorite winding road into the mountains isn't an enjoyable, or wise, ride right now. Additionally, the highway folks have decided to resurface the road, as well. Double whammy...[/QUOTE]

A great chance to learn to ride in less than idea situations. Road surfaces vary all the time. Getting used to that so you are relaxed will help when out on a ride and suddenly you have to ride a road just covered in new tar/chip.

As for the weight inside of the bike on a turn.. great job. Remember to put the weight to the inside before you begin the turn in. Doing so while in the curve you have the physics of the bike making the turn, the tires doing their job and then you go and add your mass as a shifting variable to the mix. Better to have your mass shifted over before the turn physics begin.

And where are you now?

NCS
 
Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.
 
Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.

I've read Ienatsch's book...it's great. Thanks for mentioning it...good stuff.
 
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It's very helpful...especially the body lean part. I was on a ride the other day and consciously shifted my weight to the inside during the turn, and suddenly had a real sense of command over the bike's line and a sense of confidence as well. The reduction in required lean angle for the bike, while slight on most of the turns I made (not high speed cornering), was enough to make me feel "planted" on my line.

Unfortunately, our area is now besotted with forest fires, and visibility is a few miles at best, so my favorite winding road into the mountains isn't an enjoyable, or wise, ride right now. Additionally, the highway folks have decided to resurface the road, as well. Double whammy...[/QUOTE]

A great chance to learn to ride in less than idea situations. Road surfaces vary all the time. Getting used to that so you are relaxed will help when out on a ride and suddenly you have to ride a road just covered in new tar/chip.

As for the weight inside of the bike on a turn.. great job. Remember to put the weight to the inside before you begin the turn in. Doing so while in the curve you have the physics of the bike making the turn, the tires doing their job and then you go and add your mass as a shifting variable to the mix. Better to have your mass shifted over before the turn physics begin.

And where are you now?

NCS

Great advice on the early weight shift...

Where am I now? Not sure what the question is asking...

As for riding in less than ideal conditions, I'm sure that'll happen...like yesterday, riding in 1 mile visibility in smoke. Got home and had to wash the gear...it smelled like it had hung in a chimney with a wet, smoky log burning underneath it. Maybe I learned something on the ride, but if I did, it was that those conditions are no fun...and riding for fun is why I do it. I learned similar lessons when flying...and once went out in those "less than ideal" conditions, only to be in trail to a commercial jet on final...and watching the jet have to "go around" due to wind shear. Imagine me in my single-engine four-seater a few miles behind him, thinking...now what. The "now what" was an hour spent circling south of the airport, waiting for the turbulence to subside. :)
 
Reading the responses to this point, I note that no one has mentioned trail braking. Once you understand the geometry of your motorcycle and the manner in which proper use of the front brake by trail braking in a corner influences that geometry and the contact of your front tire with the road, your speed through the corners increases. No one has yet mentioned Nick Ienatsch, so let me recommend his book, "Sport Riding Techniques" which is overall outstanding and includes a detailed discussion of trail braking. I had the good fortune of ride behind Nick on a high-speed jaunt on some pretty curvy roads -- simply keeping an eye on his brake light was a great introduction to the concept.

probably because for flyrider, who is just trying to work thru the concept/application of setting a good line for a corner, trail braking is still a bit advanced.
you know, a case of trying to get 10 lbs of feces into a 5 lb bag just does not work- it overwhelms the bag, and nothing at all stays contained.
 
+1 on Sport Riding Techniques. Good read. Also, trail braking is an advanced technique, one best learned at a school/training course. It requires good feel of the brakes, road and bike, as well as a well-grounded understanding of braking dynamics and application to traction. I use it all the time at the track, but tend to not rely on it on public roads. The problem with using trail braking on public roads is the unknown road conditions. On the track you know the condition of the pavement, the traction capabilities of the tires/bike, etc. On public roads you never know what the road surface is going to be like. It can change from day to day, even hourly. Throwing yourself fast into a corner on a public road and depending upon adequate traction to employ trail braking on the front end is a lot like rolling the dice...
 
This has been a great thread and a good read. If I could I'd like to add one other thing that has helped me a lot and I'm surprised no one mentioned it already and that is don't forget to breathe. Racing enduros in tight trees taught me to control my breathing and concentrate on being smooth. Slow down to speed up. It's kind of a yoga thing, and not that different from snow skiing. If you ride within your abilities and work on being smooth and precise and practice deep, rhythmic breathing, you'll soon find yourself carving graceful arcs and perfect apexes. Think in terms of maximizing efficiency. Don't try to beat the bike up in the corners. Relax just a bit, keep a loose and flexible body position, let the bike flow and let the corners come to you.

In racing the real speed is on straightaways and all corners do is connect the straights. So in racing your goal is to use the corner to get the best "run" at the next straight, or if there is a series of corners, to exit one corner in the best possible position to maximize your exit out of the following corner. The primary goal on the track is to get the jump on the next guy to the upcoming straight. Road riding is different in many ways. You have so many more things to factor in: blind corners, gravel, potholes, cars crossing the center line, dogs and deer just to name a few. On the road safety is paramount. Being the fastest guy through the corner doesn't matter much if you're dead.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement that track days and riding schools will help immensely. But practice riding within yourself, concentrate on riding smooth, precise and in control and BREATHE and I predict that the speed will come without you even thinking about it. And a fringe benefit is that you'll be comfortably carving apexes all day instead of fighting arm pump and leg cramps.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
...........I'm surprised no one mentioned it already and that is don't forget to breathe. ...........

Good points, But I guess I roll it all under the SMOOTH monicker, if you are smooth, there is less drama, if there is less drama, you are more relaxed, if you are relaxed you breath normally, if you breath normally your upper body (shoulders, arms) are relaxed, once you relax you feel confident, once you feel confident you start riding faster, once you start riding faster, the squids can't keep up.


Maybe I should get a job writing TV commercials:D

Oh and without re-reading all of this to see if mentioned, the KEY to smooth is looking as far ahead as possible, and always WHERE YOU WANT TO GO!. If you are looking 50' ahead, you will never be smooth, eyes UP!

In fact when the road gets challenging I repeat "look where you want to go" over and over to myself when riding.
 
So much great information. So difficult to learn without some tutorage. So easy to think you are doing it right and pick up some distracting habits along the way. So much easier to work out with some course work where all these things will be introduced at the right moment.

Can you do it on your own. Maybe. Possibly. Time frame would be much much longer.

If you really want to get the skill mentioned here, you really need a skilled coach rider around. Even if you can't do a school within an easy day's reach, look to a one on one appropriately trained instructor that can work with you.

Keep us informed.
NCS
 
Regarding "looking where you want to go" and "keep the eyes up"...those are things I learned in a skills/safety course I took, but I'd like to drill down to exactly what these terms mean...

Let's say I'm entering a long corner. I "look through the turn", but still need to "look where I want to go". If I keep my eyes all the way through the turn, but I want to stay on the outside of the curve until heading for the apex, don't I want to look a bit closer periodically, to the outside of the curve, to make sure that's where I go until apexing? I know this sounds a little dense of me, but if one of you guys who know this stuff cold would describe how you handle your vision through a good-sized turn, it would help. Do you move your eyes out and back continually? That's what I've been doing. It's what I did when landing an airplane, and that was critical to giving your brain what it needs to calculate the control inputs to make a smooth touchdown.

Thanks for the input!
 
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