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Advanced Rider's Course

I took the MSF advanced class on a wooden-clutch Moto Morini 350 about 25 years ago. It was fun and all, but the whole weekend I kept thinking that I could be spending my time riding in the mountains... They asked me to come back as an instructor but I passed on that.

I had about 2 years experience in WERA/AMA road racing at the time of the MSF class. MSF has something to offer, for sure, but the track is where you work on your PhD level of motorcycle education. :) I did a CLASS class 2 years ago at VIR and I had an adrenaline buzz for hours afterward. Highly recommended.
 
I'm not in any way trying to be a smartass , just looking for an honest answer.

Like many people here, I've ridden since I was a kid (51 y.o. now). I've owned street bikes since I was 16 and would modestly guess that I have anywhere from 300-500K miles on 2 wheels. I ride my bike to work almost year round.

I've also roadraced with WERA since 1997 on everything from an RD400 to a CBR900RR. Currently running an FZR400 and RZ350. I've attended many racing schools.

So how exactly would I benefit from taking one of these courses? Maybe there is something I'm missing, but I want to think that I pretty much know everything there is to know about 2 wheels.

I can't be the only person that thinks this way, so what can I gain?

As the racers like to say, "The day you think you're great, you've stopped being good."

You might not gain anything 'new,' but refreshing what you know is never a bad idea. Motorcycling consists of perishable skills - use them or lose them.

I instruct at Elkhart Lake's Road America, and routinely chat with world-class racers, as well as a fair number of intermediates. General concensus among them is that skills mastered on the race track stay on the race track - don't translate all that well to common street riding.

I've done track days - super fun - but performing at a level not safe on public roads, mixing it up on lousy surfaces with distracted drivers. :dunno
 
take a road trip to CT- they offer it there.

I found that course offering and I might, although I suspect Training Wheels in Mass. is gearing up to teach it. I wasn't that impressed with the BRC in 2003, since the instructor was both new and an assuming individual, but the ERC was top notch with both instructors well-regarded and offering specifically helpful corrections. 12+ miles on the parking lot that day according to the GPS, time well-spent after 50k miles on 2 wheels in the few years since I started riding again after my 30 year break.
 
I have similar "credentials" to many others on this forum; started riding at 14 when I would steal my brother's CB450; have owned many bikes; had a 16 year hiatus from riding; and, now ride more than I ever have (just finished a 12000 mile ride and am about to depart for another). I don't think there was a moment in this class that I thought to myself, "I never knew that", but there were concepts that I had not thought about in many moons and skills I had not practiced in eons. If you think you are too skilled and knowledgable to take a course like this then bless you; but your confidence may be misplaced and it may be be your biggest problem.
 
I went and took a Riders Skills refresher course with Team Oregon when I first got my new bike.... I figured it was a good place to learn how to handle my new bike and get a chance to put it thru some maneuvers I won't do every day... best $99 I spent in a long time and I got to chat motorcycles with a few neat guys..
 
I went and took a Riders Skills refresher course with Team Oregon when I first got my new bike.... I figured it was a good place to learn how to handle my new bike and get a chance to put it thru some maneuvers I won't do every day... best $99 I spent in a long time and I got to chat motorcycles with a few neat guys..


Team Oregon puts on a pretty good program. Worth the time and $$$.

I'm aware of the bad blood between them and the MSF, so I guess I shouldn't even be saying stuff like this, but I've always called it like I see it.

Glad you appreciated the training.

Ride safe and often! :thumb
 
Team Oregon puts on a pretty good program. Worth the time and $$$.

I'm aware of the bad blood between them and the MSF, so I guess I shouldn't even be saying stuff like this, but I've always called it like I see it.

Glad you appreciated the training.

Ride safe and often! :thumb

yeah, more or less the same thing from what I can see... both high quality products.

I was also sort of surprised that when I went to BMW to get my $500 in free riding gear (Ride Smart Program) with purchase of new bike and an "MSF" course with in 90 days they accepted the Team Oregon course.
 
skills taught on the track translate quite well to street conditions. if you've taken numerous parking lot based courses, maybe a track day would be your next level for improvement.

Indeed they do and this was obviously my point, although I was more thinking track-taught skills translate to highway skills as opposed to street skills.

Hard to get too badly injured in a parking lot but it sure can happen overcooking a curve at highway speeds. Agree it's a matter of preference but I'd vote for having fun in curves as opposed to slowing down and wheelbarrowing around them. And, I vote for having fun on roads/highways as opposed to streets. You, too, I know. We both live where highways have curves.
 
in my translation, "streets" means a paved road.
and yes, preferably a curvy one. unless its a very curvy one, which is even better.

who "rides" in town? that's just commuting, running errands, leaving town to go somewhere, but its not "riding".
 
I took the MSF advanced class on a wooden-clutch Moto Morini 350 about 25 years ago. It was fun and all, but the whole weekend I kept thinking that I could be spending my time riding in the mountains... They asked me to come back as an instructor but I passed on that.

I had about 2 years experience in WERA/AMA road racing at the time of the MSF class. MSF has something to offer, for sure, but the track is where you work on your PhD level of motorcycle education. :) I did a CLASS class 2 years ago at VIR and I had an adrenaline buzz for hours afterward. Highly recommended.

Tell me more about which classes you woumd recommend at VIR. I live very near and have been looking for some track education.
 
Just to clarify:
MSF has renamed some courses, and is causing confusion all over the place.

The BRC (basic rider course) is still the same course at present (there are changes coming to this too!)

The original ERC/ARC (Experienced rider course or Advanced rider course) is now called BRC-2 and is essentially some of the BRC exercises with add-on exercises ridden on your personal bike.

The NEW ARC (Advanced Rider Course) really is a new course and material designed to be ridden at speeds considerably above the BRC or BRC-2. The range setups are totally new, and very challenging due to the speeds involved. The exercises are designed to teach real-world skills. For many riders, it will be the first time they have ever dragged the feeler pegs or touched their boot toes to the ground in turns at speed. Even long-term riders will find this to be a fun, informative course that will refresh skills mostly never used or practiced. Everybody who has taken the class leaves with a huge smile on their faces.
 
Just to clarify

The original ERC/ARC (Experienced rider course or Advanced rider course) is now called BRC-2 and is essentially some of the BRC exercises with add-on exercises ridden on your personal bike.

Firm believer in training.

Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much. :)

How do they account for that in the course?
 
Firm believer in training.

Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much. :)

How do they account for that in the course?

We have you work on the technique aspects, and let the tighter performance develop as you progress. No "box" in the ARC-ST; the only "tight turn" exercise is an offset weave.
I've not ridden a new K in the box, but can do it in the std 20' on my R11S, and on my K11RS and my Ducati 900SS when I owned those. With only 23 degs lock-to-lock, that Duc was tough. but a friend of mine could do with box on my SS with his teenage son as passenger. It really is all about good technique. And trust. Keep practicing!

In the BRC2, the box gets expanded to 24 & 28 feet for bigger bikes. If testing as a license waiver, a big bike can use the 24' dimension.
 
Firm believer in training.

Always been curious how you do some of the MSF courses on your own bike if it can't turn as tight? I can ride the figure 8 in the box easily on my KLR, but on my bmw k1600 not so much. :)

How do they account for that in the course?

Actually, it can be done easily. One of the secrets of the box for the big bikes and especially for those with floorboards, is to slide yourself off the seat toward the outside of the turn to get the counterweighting to work properly. Foot forward setups make weighting the pegs impossible. The other big secret is that you have to run the box at above walking speed a bit so the bike can hold itself up. Most people having trouble with the U-Turns are trying to do them too slowly, or are not counterweighting properly. It is easy to ride the box at some speed without the counterweighting if you get the speed set correctly to begin with, and hold constant throttle. Playing with the throttle any during the figure 8 will cause you to have to deal with multiple control inputs, (throttle, clutch, rear brake) and blend them appropriately.

You can start practicing by setting a center point with a cone or tennis ball cut in half. Start turning around the center point, looking only at the center point marker, and tighten the turn as you get comfortable by closing in on the center. You will discover how easily the bike holds itself in turns with the correct speed. Do this left and right and get comfortable, and you will find the box maneuvers, and any U-Turns quite easy to do.

Most folks have the problem of subconsciously worrying about dropping their expensive bike, and react accordingly: it is a mental block you have to work through.

As noted, the MSF course (BRC-2 now, old advanced) uses three outside widths: 28, 24 and 20. We start the large bikes at the 28 foot width, and work inward. Many, once they realize the tricks noted above, can do the 20 foot box. Some never believe their large, heavy bikes can U-turn in the 28 foot width. Again, mostly a mental block. The one exception I will acknowledge is that some guys show up on slammed down raked out choppers and simply cannot lean far enough to even stay inside half the range width !

A favorite story from one of my lady students: She and her husband both road Harley Fatboy bikes. Getting turned around in the 25 foot wide driveway of their home was always problematic, and they specifically wanted to master the box and U-turns. She did and he did not. Several months after they were in the class, both rode up to the range and he went inside the dealership. She came out with a huge grin on her face and told us that she could ride up the driveway and make a clean U-turn without stopping. He could not and always did the W turn, much to his chagrin. She was quite proud of being a better rider than her husband.
 
While I agree that those with track-days experience and actual racing background may feel there is nothing to learn in the ARC, there are skills taught in the ARC that help in the day to day riding on city streets and in tighter confines. Some of the skills applied are like those the motocops learn. And anything taught that helps us keep the rubber down and the bike up are worthwhile and potentially $$$$ saving skills.
 
I believe people are missing the point on training. For some it can make your riding skills better and for others it will keep your skills sharp. For me, I go to training with an open mind. I have been to so many motorcycle training classes or course. Even became an instructor/coach. My point is an ERC (BRC2) is to either make you a better rider or just keep those skill sharp.
 
Kevin- not sure if you realize it, but we have offered multiple sessions of the ARC-ST at the last 2 nationals,
and that both times, they were taught on sites that did not previosuly have any range at all (high school parking lot in Redmond, and a mall parking lot last year).
we were not able to secure a site at this year's rally.

IMO, The BRC2 (ex-ERC) is a good course for a (slightly) experienced rider, for one who has never taken any type off formal training, or someone who just wans to shake off the cobwebs or have someone observe their riding actions to help them make some adjustments.
The ARC however, is the ****z, and is a totally awesome course, which will push your comfort zone and skill sets to a new level.

This year, we held UBBRC, BRC2, Total Control, Camp Gears Dirt school, and had scheduled (but regrettably canceled due to lack of registrants) a Sidecar/Trike course, StreetMasters, and Chris Peris Riding School. A plus was three seminars by David Hough and Coach Stroud where they discussed the theory behind slow-speed, sidecar, and high-speed cornering on dirt and asphalt. After the seminars they went their separate ways to parking lots with small exercises setup.
 

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