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Thread: No brake exercise.

  1. #31
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW Triumphant View Post
    Ok, i admit i have been a bit afraid to use the rear brake when practicising slow turns anyway...

    So, that leaves throttle and clutch ...

    Can you give me some advice on the best techniques?
    Yes I can...............

    Making a slow tight turn. Get a nice slow speed, "slow" but yet not too fast where your have way through the turn you need brakes. If you are in the turn use rear bakes only. Tap the rear brake to slow down before you start the turn. Look where you want to go. And I mean look. Turn that head back where your chin almost hits your shoulder. Remember the motorcycle goes where the nose goes. On the RT you can leave the clutch all the way out and if you feel you need control, squeeze the clutch in a hair. I like to "feather", disengage and engage, disengage, engage, etc...... Leave the the throttle alone or if you need a hair then "pimp" the throttle slightly. (RTPs are geared differently then RTs) As you make that nice head turn give me a lot of counter lean. The motorcycle leans and you straighten up and or shift your ares on the other end of the motorcycle. You push the motorcycle into the dip of the turn. Hopes this helps.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  2. #32
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    motorman587 -

    Can you clarify this one for me?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by motorman587
    Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.


    Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

    A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

    B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

    In your last post, you advocate feathering the clutch, which I would think of as worse for clutch wear.

    Was your "not good for the clutch" comment not related to wear, but rather low RPM hammering on the splines and torque straps?

    Thanks

  3. #33
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxcrider View Post
    motorman587 -

    Can you clarify this one for me?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by motorman587
    Have the clutch all the way out (enagagement) and using rear brake is not good for the clutch, but can be done.


    Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.

    A - Did I read what you wrote correctly?

    B - If so, why is it bad for the clutch? In my mind, that would be no different than going up a steep incline at low speed.

    In your last post, you advocate feathering the clutch, which I would think of as worse for clutch wear.

    Was your "not good for the clutch" comment not related to wear, but rather low RPM hammering on the splines and torque straps?

    Thanks
    If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake? It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch. This a techinque that helps some become a better ride. Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake? It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch. This a techinque that helps some become a better ride. Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.
    really? how?
    i would just expect the bike to stall.

    heat build up in the clutch from friction/heat build up at the rear brake? again- how?
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  5. #35
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    really? how?
    i would just expect the bike to stall.

    heat build up in the clutch from friction/heat build up at the rear brake? again- how?

    It would stall if there is too much throttle, but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  6. #36
    Registered User westhautianplen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roamingbeemer View Post
    This is a good thread. I took the Advanced class last year and this thread has expanded on that considerably. I practice this slow speed stuff all the time on both pavement and dirt so I like threads like this. I am happy we have some real experts on this forum to give advice and guidance to posers like me. Thanks for putting the information out.


    I will second that.

    Great discussion.
    Plen Smith
    07 R1200RT

  7. #37
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestHautianPlen View Post
    I will second that.

    Great discussion.

    Thank you, and I would like to add that the information I post is no secret, nor I am saying that this way is the only way, but a way. If you been using the rear brake in your tight turns, great. I am just saying that you can do it with out the rear brake with practice and with this techique you will be come a smoothier rider without wear (normal) on the clutch/brake.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  8. #38
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Did you ever see the Indianapolis Police perform their pre-race show at the Indy 500? They can ride their Harleys around the track while standing on the seat.

    Equally as relevant to everyday riding as the no-brake exercise.

    http://www.drillsquad.com/gallery/viewer.html
    Kent Christensen
    21482
    '12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    It would stall if there is too much throttle, but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.
    thoroughly agree. but this is a change of condition from what you stated earlier, which is what both I and rxcrider have asked you to clarify. previously, you had stated the conditional situation as Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.
    typo, braincramp, or what you meant to say?
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

  10. #40
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    If you are going up a steep incline you would not be dragging the rear brake?.
    True - just similar loading as far as the clutch is concerned if moderately dragging the rear brake or going up a steep incline.

    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    It only becomes bad if you are using a lot of rear brake pressure and the clutch half engaged or fully engaged. Something must give and it will be a burned out clutch.
    I get this for partial clutch engagement and riding the back brake. Again, similar clutch loading to going up a hill with a partially engaged clutch - bad idea. It is the fully engaged clutch (clutch lever at the bar released) that I'm not grasping. I can see riding the brake with the clutch engaged being bad for the brake. (like driving your car around with the parking brake on) I can also see it causing the engine to stutter or stall if done at a low RPM. I just don't understand how the clutch gets smoked if I don't squeeze the lever.

    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    Feathering the clutch helps cool the clutch while you are doing this, slow tight turns, not going up a hill. If you are dragging while pressure on the rear brake this causes more friction/heat.
    If by feathering, you meed modulating the clutch to control power transfer while minimizing the amount of clutch slippage through smooth, but rappid engagement and disengagement, I can buy that. It should still generate less heat by leaving the lever alone / keeping the clutch fully engaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    It would stall if there is too much throttle...
    This makes sense if by "too much throttle" you mean closing it too far. I guess it could also make sense on a carbureted bike without an accelerator pump.

    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    ...but if you continue slipping the clutch plus using a lot of rear brake pressure the heat will build. I saw a motor officer attempt a rodeo a couple of years ago that would not listen and when he was done after 1/2 hour or so, smoke was coming from the motorcycle. He ended up "smoking" the clutch.
    Absolutely - Wet clutches don't enjoy that and out dry ones won't put up with much of it at all.

    BTW - not trying to in any way argue against careful clutch manipulation in slow, tight turns. - just trying to fully understand a few of your comments about the fully engaged clutch. Somehow I suspect we would have all been on the same page in a minute were this conversation in person.

    Getting back to your turning technique -
    You mentioned counter leaning or having your body stay vertical and having the bike lean beneath you and pushing the bike into the turn. Ignoring throttle, brake and clutch manipulation, are you strictly pushing on the bars to initiate the turn or weighting / pressuring the pegs as well. The same question goes for exiting the turn / standing the bike up.
    Last edited by rxcrider; 02-23-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  11. #41
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    thoroughly agree. but this is a change of condition from what you stated earlier, which is what both I and rxcrider have asked you to clarify. previously, you had stated the conditional situation as Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.
    typo, braincramp, or what you meant to say?

    Not a typo or braincramp. Again slipping the clutch (gray area), while riding the rear brake is "BAD" for clutch. Don't know how else to stated it.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  12. #42
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Or maybe I do not understand your question.
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  13. #43
    Registered User motorman587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerfish1100 View Post
    thoroughly agree. but this is a change of condition from what you stated earlier, which is what both I and rxcrider have asked you to clarify. previously, you had stated the conditional situation as Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.
    typo, braincramp, or what you meant to say?
    Your right, leaving the the clutch all the way engaged. I meant slipping or partial engaged............., too much brake pressure would make the motor stall if not enough throttle given, that clear up the air??
    John
    2004 BMW R1150R Black
    Contact me 4 (1&1) training, Expert witness in motorcycle crash reconstruction

  14. #44
    Registered User rxcrider's Avatar
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    mostly - peg weighting?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorman587 View Post
    Your right, leaving the the clutch all the way engaged. I meant slipping or partial engaged............., too much brake pressure would make the motor stall if not enough throttle given, that clear up the air??
    yes, have agreed on a slipping clutch being bad this whole time.
    what we (rxcrider and myself) have not understood was your statement "Engaging the rear brake (pressing on the foot pedal) while leaving the clutch engaged (lever all the way out) is bad for the clutch.
    if you are now saying "partially engaged is what i meant to say", then i think we can put this part of the discussion to bed.
    Ride Safe, Ride Lots

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