another riding technique question

ultracyclist · Oct 11, 2011

You are riding through South Central WI which has huge hills and sharp turns.

At the crest of one hill you see a yellow road sign that indicates a "squiggly" road up ahead, and as you look to the top of the next hill about a half mile away you can barely see the road that has a sharp turn to the left at the very top of the hill.

The speed limit on this road is 45mph. I am taking it easy.

You ride dowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn. AS you do so the road up on top of the next hill disappears. You know "about" where things are. This is indeed the "hidden road". Yikes.

Then you ride upppppppppppppppppppppp.

As your sight line sees the up coming curve, you also notice that there is some loose gravel on your intended line which was probably tossed there by cars riding on the shoulder.

What is your technique? What would you do?

From MARS · Oct 12, 2011

I would straighten the bike, bleed off as much speed as possible, pick the least littered line, and thank my lucky stars I wasn't going any faster.

Tom

pffog · Oct 12, 2011

90% of corners with gravel in them, have a fairly clean line that exists, approx 8-12" wide that generally starts 3-4 " from the inside pavement edge (fog line area. The 100% that do not is because the last car that went around threw the gravel. It gets cleaned off by people that do not drop a tire off the edge.

My lines in twisty stuff ALWAYS put me in that clean(er) zone, especially if blind, and there was evidence of gravel on previous corners.

Too many riders are afraid of the fog line, it can be your bet friend in the twisties, be it inside or outside. Around limited sight line corners I always favor the pavement AWAY from the center line and oncoming traffic.

32232 · Oct 12, 2011

Seriously, I zoom in the resolution on my GPS to the tightest possible picture and use it as an indicator of what the upcoming blind turns are.

It's better than having the co-driver in a rally car reading the description of the turns in your ear. That way the chances of entering a bend too fast to react are greatly reduced. The second part on a unknown road is riding at a pace where hazards like gravel can be handled safely.

There is only one decent, twisty road in these parts and gravel in the turns is always a consideration. Although I know it well, if I haven't been on it for some time I will first ride a tame "scouting" pass before I turn around and ride it at an enjoyable pace.

pffog · Oct 12, 2011

32232 said:
Seriously, I zoom in the resolution on my GPS to the tightest possible picture and use it as an indicator of what the upcoming blind turns are. .........................

WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.

Even at track days where I have taken the same corner hundreds of times, I would never glance at the speedo or tach to set my speed. In fact some track day organizers make you put tape over your speedo, so your not tempted to look.

I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.

40427 · Oct 12, 2011

Most roads present some hazards, always look up where you want to go. Look through the curve/corner.
The speed is not all that important, since any sane person would only ride on public roads well within their capabilities.

I see people all the time riding and looking at their bloody GPS. They often time miss the corner completely or run off the edge of the road, worse case is going over the center line into on coming traffic.

If you need to look at your GPS , STOP !!!

mneblett · Oct 12, 2011

pffog said:
WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.

Even at track days where I have taken the same corner hundreds of times, I would never glance at the speedo or tach to set my speed. In fact some track day organizers make you put tape over your speedo, so your not tempted to look.

I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.

If you're not going track-day speeds, it can be very useful -- like the time I had no choice but to ride through dense fog, at night, crossing a mountainous W.VA ridge coming home from the Charleston MOA Rally.

Having the GPS to snap glances at while maintaining a reasonable pace (i.e., not high speed, but fast enough to not get run over by idiots approaching from the rear) was a true God-send -- the brand-new Navigator GPS, which I had conducted multiple hand-wringings over debating whether to spend that much money, paid for itself in full that night.

Point is, it doesn't take massive eyes-off-road-concentration to be able to snatch quick snapshots of the upcoming road in the straights between corners.

pffog · Oct 12, 2011

mneblett;718355.............-- like the time I had no choice but to ride through dense fog said:
Pilots call that "get-home-itis", and it is usually applied to dead pilots! I can see where your coming from, but when I have ridden into fog that heavy I back track and grab a place to stay, or find a safe place to pull well off the road, and wait it out. Drivers coming the other way can offer reports, as well as the new smart phones. If you can't see, than neither can anyone else.

There was an accident in Utah, where 2 riders got seriously hurt when they found themselves in a sudden sand storm, not much they could do but to make sure they were as far right as they could get, but the truck coming the other way, that hit them both, was all the way across both lanes. Living where white out snow storms exist, I can tell you all you can do is hope, when you can't see but at least you have a cage around you.

On the bike, I think I would just park it as far off the road as possible, then walk as far as possible from the road and wait. Just NOT worth it to me.

mneblett · Oct 12, 2011

pffog said:
Pilots call that "get-home-itis", and it is usually applied to dead pilots! I can see where your coming from, but when I have ridden into fog that heavy I back track and grab a place to stay, or find a safe place to pull well off the road, and wait it out. Drivers coming the other way can offer reports, as well as the new smart phones. If you can't see, than neither can anyone else.

(snippage of pointless hurt riders story -- they could just as well been "safely" in a hotel room when the same truck driver came thought the wall; one could also argue they would be ok if they used their GPSs and kept on riding so they weren't in that wrong place at the wrong time)

pffog said:
On the bike, I think I would just park it as far off the road as possible, then walk as far as possible from the road and wait. Just NOT worth it to me.

If that was an option where/when I was, I would have taken it -- this wasn't just a matter of "I wanna get home"-itis (sort of insulting to suggest it was -- I ain't made it this far with everything intact without having some sense of judgment and discretion).

In any event, that doesn't address the original points -- that use of a GPS for a quick "read ahead" of an unfamiliar road is not an inherently dangerous activity, and that to suggest that anyone that takes their eyes off the road for a split second is a fool is, at best, unthoughtfully condescending.

ultracyclist · Oct 12, 2011

pffog

Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

marchyman · Oct 12, 2011

ultracyclist said:
Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

The fog line is the white line on the right side of the road (assuming you live where they drive on the right) that indicates the end of the road and the start of the shoulder. Anything to the right of the fog line is shoulder.

Warning: in some places the fog line also pretty much marks the invisible bicycle lane. Hugging the fog line around a blind turn in such places is not a good idea.

mneblett · Oct 12, 2011

ultracyclist said:
Fog Line area? What means these words? Are you referring to the lines on the road that reflect light?

An aside -- a nit -- in your sig block, his name is spelled:

Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov (Russian: Михаи́л Тимофе́евич Кала́шников, Mihail Timofeevič Kala?ínikov)

Rpbump · Oct 12, 2011

When riding twisty roads you have to scan not only the road for potential problems but be on the look-out for "critters & other hazards" on the side of the road. Do not exceed your driving capabilities, (speed is exhilarating / accidents hurt). I will attend Track Days sponsored by BMWNEF this coming year. The rider is ultimately responsible for his/her safety, learn to make good decisions.

ANDYVH · Oct 12, 2011

I expected to read someone using other methods to read turns before you get to them. I had done quite a bit of riding in central/south Missouri and learned to read the unmarked turns (quite a few down there) by "reading" the tree lines and terrain. A classic is the uphill road leading to a turn at or over the crest.

As I scan/search the 4-sec to 12-sec range ahead of me, I also read the terrain and tree lines to gauge the upcoming turns. If I see a lot of trees perpendicular to my forward sightline, or a lot of trees at a shallow angle to my forward sightline, I can use it to indicate the turn "tightness". I can do the same by reading the power/telephone poles. If the tree line is more "inline" or more parallel to my forward sightline it indicates the turn is broad.

ultracyclist · Oct 13, 2011

andyvh

I will be in GB next week exhibiting at a trade show.
I would like to hear more about what you posted.
Maybe we could grab a cup of coffee?
PM me if you are interested.
If I recall, you work at Nick's BMW?
TIA

deilenberger · Oct 13, 2011

pffog said:
WOW, I would never take my eyes off the road that long! Plus there are hundreds of other variables, beside the radius of the turn, that dictate safe speed through a corner.

Snippage happened here..

I would NEVER advise using the gps as a guide to anyone, but to each his own.

Actually - I do the same thing, but my GPS is mounted where it is just about in my line of sight, up high where I don't have to make a large eye movement to glance at it. The trick is don't fixate on it. And you don't glance at it when you're in the turn, you glance at it when you're in the straight heading toward the turn.

Works wonderfully on the really twisty roads in West Virginia, especially when you run into the oddball 340 degree turn, or a hard 180 right followed almost immediately by a second hard 180 right (and those turns do exist in WV.. gotta love that their engineers don't own a straight-edge..)

greenwald · Oct 14, 2011

Have used my GPS more than once to be forewarned of a sharp curve up ahead.

While I don't take my eyes off looking as far thru a curve as I can once I'm in it, I appreciate the alert that GPS gives me as to the lay of the land coming up, especially in limited visibility conditions.

WalterK75 · Oct 14, 2011

I would be riding so I can safely stop in the visible road space in front of me. I cannot assume anything about a road I can't see. A GPS may show the curves etc. but it cannot tell me if there is a dead deer lying in the road, a stalled vehicle, construction or gravel. I can't assume anything about the road I cannot see.

lkchris · Oct 15, 2011

If you're going 45 mph, you'll probably have time to react to most of it.

pffog · Oct 15, 2011

lkchris said:
If you're going 45 mph, you'll probably have time to react to most of it.

45!!!, On my favorite roads and corners, 25 has me scraping pegs, while I am hanging off.

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