-
Welcome, Guest! We hope you enjoy the excellent technical knowledge, event information and discussions that the BMW MOA forum provides. Some forum content will be hidden from you if you remain logged out. If you want to view all content, please click the 'Log in' button above and enter your BMW MOA username and password. If you are not an MOA member, why not take the time to join the club, so you can enjoy posting on the forum, the BMW Owners News magazine, and all of the discounts and benefits the BMW MOA offers?
-
Beginning April 1st, and running through April 30th, there is a new 2024 BMW MOA Election discussion area within The Club section of the forum. Within this forum area is also a sticky post that provides the ground rules for participating in the Election forum area. Also, the candidates statements are provided. Please read before joining the conversation, because the rules are very specific to maintain civility.
The Election forum is here: Election Forum
What is Surging???
- Thread starter RTdavey
- Start date
bikerfish1100
New member
RTs are the worst culprits for surging.
some years seem worse than others.
S's don't seem to surge at all.
surging happens at steady state throttle applications.
RT's ride at steady speeds, S's are either accelerating, or decelerating, but rarely are they in static throttle mode.
or something like that.
some years seem worse than others.
S's don't seem to surge at all.
surging happens at steady state throttle applications.
RT's ride at steady speeds, S's are either accelerating, or decelerating, but rarely are they in static throttle mode.
or something like that.
How about a report from owners here? I've only ridden a few different models. Perhaps owners could report in, giving the model/year of problem machines.
"Surging" is that annoying bucking that is most obvious at slow in-town speeds, say 30 - 40 mph. The engine pulls for a second, then slows for a second.
What's your's do?
pmdave
"Surging" is that annoying bucking that is most obvious at slow in-town speeds, say 30 - 40 mph. The engine pulls for a second, then slows for a second.
What's your's do?
pmdave
My RT is an '03. I bought it brand-new.
It surges in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear......at rpm's from about 1,000 - 3,500 or so.
Once I get to 4K rpm, it starts behaving itself........
During the course of what is now about 17,000 miles ridden, I have perfected the "right hand steady as a rock" syndrome.
It helps.........
It surges in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear......at rpm's from about 1,000 - 3,500 or so.
Once I get to 4K rpm, it starts behaving itself........
During the course of what is now about 17,000 miles ridden, I have perfected the "right hand steady as a rock" syndrome.
It helps.........
MarkF
New member
dano said:My RT is an '03. I bought it brand-new.
It surges in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear......at rpm's from about 1,000 - 3,500 or so.
Once I get to 4K rpm, it starts behaving itself
I don't mean to be a wiseass here. But why are you riding an oilhead at less than 4,000 RPM? A great mechanic gave me a bit of advise years ago about my new then Guzzi. "It ain't meant to be ridden that way." Same applies here.
MarkF said:
You don't happen to work for BMW do you?
So.....that's your answer to surging.....keep it above 4000 rpm?
There are times, when in traffic, you are forced to ride in 1st gear, and you are on/off the throttle. 4000 rpm in that type of situation isn't very practical.....now is it?
If you listen hard and long enough, BMW will attempt to throw every excuse in the book at you, in an effort to convince you, that what you are experiencing is anything other than surging. Matter-of-fact, a lot of their dealerships have subscribed to the same conspiracy theory.
If you don't work for BMW.....you should. You'd be a great asset to them, but not so much for the consumer.
kenk
New member
In September 2001, I installed a Techlusion 83i Power Box on my R1100RT, to eliminate lean fuel surging that developed between 3000-4000 RPMs. The 83i totally eliminated my lean-fuel surge. However, Techlusion later developed a digital TFi, which not only eliminates the surge, provides better throttle response and additional adjustments. So I switched to the new TFi in February of 2002. 50,000 miles later, my RT has never surged and the bike runs flawlessly. How bad was my surge before the Techlusion TFI? It was so bad that the bike was actually dangerous to ride around town. My dealer (Engle Motors in KC) with over 50 years in the BMW motorcycle business could not tune out the problem. I was ready to sell the bike until I discovered the Techlusion 83i and TFi, and am really glad I didnÔÇÖt sell the bike. The bike is actually a pleasure to ride at any RPM.
For the R1150 motors, I recommend the Techlusion R259 specifically designed for the oilhead so you can continue to operate the bike in closed-loop. I switched to the R259 for about 10,000 miles it worked great. However have switched back to the TFi since I personally prefer open-loop (02 sensor disconnected). If your concerned with EPA compliance, have your dealer set the Techlusion device with an exhaust gas analyzer. It will increase the CO by small percentage. BMW stock is +/- 1.5%. I run my bike around 3%. You can set it as low at 2% and be totally in compliance. However, the lower you set the device, the less effective it will be.
Borrowing from my article published by Paul Glaves in the February's 2002 issue of BMWON, the following information explains what a Techlusion Power Box does to reduce or eliminate lean fuel delivery surging. "Drawing about 25 milliamps of power from the power side of the left fuel injector, the 83i (or other Techlusion device) operates by monitoring the triggering sent to the injectors. R1100 series injectors are ground-triggered devices. This means that the injectors have power supplied to them at all times. The Motronic simply turns on an internal transistor at the appropriate time to provide a momentary ground (measured in milliseconds). This causes the current to flow through the injectors, which energizes their solenoid coils, creating the magnetic fields, which lift the injector pintles to let fuel flow. The Techlusion box simply provides a ground circuit to continue power flow through the injector even after the Motronic has turned its transistor off. Since the Techlusion box is extending the length of time the injector circuit has a ground, it is extending the length of time the pintle is open, therefore increasing the amount of fuel flow." Since the Techlusion device is not an input device to your motronic, if it fails it simply no longer extends the time the fuel injector and your bike continues to run as if the Techlusion was not installed.
Paul Glaves wrote in the same issue of BMWON, "The Power Box can be adjusted to extend the pulse width in two regimes: one below the and one above a crossover setting. The crossover point is computed based on the percentage of total time that the injector is on. That crossover setting is adjustable using one of three small screwdriver adjustments on the device. The other two adjustments (center and right) control the length of pulse added, one for below and one for above the crossover point."
I am not an employee of Techlusion, or have ever been paid for my endorsement. Techlusion has provided me two free Techlusion devices to test (TFI and R259), however I would not endorse if they donÔÇÖt work. Paying Techlusion $249 is a small price for satisfaction I have received for a flawless running motorcycle.
Over the years, I have had well over 100 emails from oilhead owners telling me that Techlusion devices have eliminated their lean-fuel surging.
http://www.techlusion.com/
For the R1150 motors, I recommend the Techlusion R259 specifically designed for the oilhead so you can continue to operate the bike in closed-loop. I switched to the R259 for about 10,000 miles it worked great. However have switched back to the TFi since I personally prefer open-loop (02 sensor disconnected). If your concerned with EPA compliance, have your dealer set the Techlusion device with an exhaust gas analyzer. It will increase the CO by small percentage. BMW stock is +/- 1.5%. I run my bike around 3%. You can set it as low at 2% and be totally in compliance. However, the lower you set the device, the less effective it will be.
Borrowing from my article published by Paul Glaves in the February's 2002 issue of BMWON, the following information explains what a Techlusion Power Box does to reduce or eliminate lean fuel delivery surging. "Drawing about 25 milliamps of power from the power side of the left fuel injector, the 83i (or other Techlusion device) operates by monitoring the triggering sent to the injectors. R1100 series injectors are ground-triggered devices. This means that the injectors have power supplied to them at all times. The Motronic simply turns on an internal transistor at the appropriate time to provide a momentary ground (measured in milliseconds). This causes the current to flow through the injectors, which energizes their solenoid coils, creating the magnetic fields, which lift the injector pintles to let fuel flow. The Techlusion box simply provides a ground circuit to continue power flow through the injector even after the Motronic has turned its transistor off. Since the Techlusion box is extending the length of time the injector circuit has a ground, it is extending the length of time the pintle is open, therefore increasing the amount of fuel flow." Since the Techlusion device is not an input device to your motronic, if it fails it simply no longer extends the time the fuel injector and your bike continues to run as if the Techlusion was not installed.
Paul Glaves wrote in the same issue of BMWON, "The Power Box can be adjusted to extend the pulse width in two regimes: one below the and one above a crossover setting. The crossover point is computed based on the percentage of total time that the injector is on. That crossover setting is adjustable using one of three small screwdriver adjustments on the device. The other two adjustments (center and right) control the length of pulse added, one for below and one for above the crossover point."
I am not an employee of Techlusion, or have ever been paid for my endorsement. Techlusion has provided me two free Techlusion devices to test (TFI and R259), however I would not endorse if they donÔÇÖt work. Paying Techlusion $249 is a small price for satisfaction I have received for a flawless running motorcycle.
Over the years, I have had well over 100 emails from oilhead owners telling me that Techlusion devices have eliminated their lean-fuel surging.
http://www.techlusion.com/
Last edited:
MarkF
New member
Yep, I'm the CEO! Sent here to hoodwink you'all into buying a pre '04 oilhead.dano said:You don't happen to work for BMW do you?
Works for me. I love my 2000 oilhead. Your results may varydano said:
Whatever. I'm gonna ride tomorrow. You can tap keys and put down BMW, myself and whoever else you wish. I know I'll be having fun. I suspect you will too!dano said:If you don't work for BMW.....you should. You'd be a great asset to them, but not so much for the consumer.
Now where was that block all posts from dano preference?
kenk
New member
MarkF
The R1100R is not normally a bad surging oilhead, compared to the RTs. So, while youÔÇÖre surging may be manageable by running your bike over 4000 RPMs, this may not be the case for other oilheads that surge so badly that they are actually a danger to ride at lower speeds. BMWNA has actually had to buy back over 50 bikes under the lemon law. For those owners, their BMWs did not live up to their expectation for a premium motorcycle and BMWNA has done nothing to mitigate the problem. IMHO, a premium motorcycle at a premium price should not surge at any speed and owners have every right to be a bit pissed off by BMWs failure to address the problem. For those members that have a bike that doesnÔÇÖt surge, count your blessings. Mine never surged until 20,000 miles. The bike developed a surge that was so bad that I hated to ride the bike.
I also own a 2004 Ducati ST3. It also surged below 4000 RPMs. However, Ducati addressed the problem of this first year bike by upgrading the ECUs on the 2005 models and then at no cost to the owners, replaced the ECUs for free on the 2004s. It no longer surges at any speed.
Contrary to popular belief, the dual-spark on the R1150s was not to address the surging issue. The old oilhead design would did not meet the new EC2 emissions standards that took affect in Europe in 2003 and the dual-spark was an intermediate step until the new motor arrived. The newer dual-sparks surge less, however are not surge free.
The R1100R is not normally a bad surging oilhead, compared to the RTs. So, while youÔÇÖre surging may be manageable by running your bike over 4000 RPMs, this may not be the case for other oilheads that surge so badly that they are actually a danger to ride at lower speeds. BMWNA has actually had to buy back over 50 bikes under the lemon law. For those owners, their BMWs did not live up to their expectation for a premium motorcycle and BMWNA has done nothing to mitigate the problem. IMHO, a premium motorcycle at a premium price should not surge at any speed and owners have every right to be a bit pissed off by BMWs failure to address the problem. For those members that have a bike that doesnÔÇÖt surge, count your blessings. Mine never surged until 20,000 miles. The bike developed a surge that was so bad that I hated to ride the bike.
I also own a 2004 Ducati ST3. It also surged below 4000 RPMs. However, Ducati addressed the problem of this first year bike by upgrading the ECUs on the 2005 models and then at no cost to the owners, replaced the ECUs for free on the 2004s. It no longer surges at any speed.
Contrary to popular belief, the dual-spark on the R1150s was not to address the surging issue. The old oilhead design would did not meet the new EC2 emissions standards that took affect in Europe in 2003 and the dual-spark was an intermediate step until the new motor arrived. The newer dual-sparks surge less, however are not surge free.
kenk
New member
lorazepam said:
Possibly. But the facts remain the single spark oilheads did not meet the 2003 EC2 emissions standard enforced by EU and contrary to popular belief, the oilhead motor even with a catalytic converter and 02-sensor barely meets the CO and NOx emissions standards set by the EPA. EC2 is a higher standard then our California standard and failure to meet these new standards means you can sell the bikes in BMWs largest market-- Europe. Almost every 4-cylinder motorcycle without catalytic converters and 02 sensor are considerably better then BMW oilheads by a large margin. See http://www.epa.gov/otaq/roadbike.htm
For some of you that buy BMW oilheads because you think they are environmentally friendly, they are just mid pack compared to other motorcycles and actually emit about 10 times the CO of most automobiles. The EPA actually has recommended holding motorcycles to the same CO standards as cars. If this actually happens, motorcycle performance would drop considerably. Why...because automobiles with multiple cylinders are more efficient and have numerous emission control systems that are of considerable size and weight that cannot be fitted on a motorcycle. Leaning out the oilheads or any other motorcycle to pass EPA requirements is why some motorcycles surge. For more efficient 4-cylinder bikes, leaning out has less of an effort. For oilheads, leaning put the less efficient motor right on the edge of not providing an adequate fuel/air mixture to make them run smoothly.
MarkF....
Sorry if I offended you in some way, as it wasn't my intention to do so. But....your response to keeping my RT above 4000 rpm, was a bit "flip" in my opinion.
I've been riding for over 42 yrs., so I'm not a novice by any means. And.....my 2003 R1150RT is the most expensive bike that I've ever purchased. And believe me when I say, I did a lot of soul searching prior to buying it.
I consider a $16,000.00 motorcycle....a serious subject, just as I do the "surging issue", that afflicts so many.
I've explored 99% of the remedies, except that of a Techlusion unit. I've done the valve adj. / TB synch. routine, I've spoke to at least 10 BMW service techs and listened to all of their denials / opinions, til I'm blue in the face. I've talked to BMWNA at least 3, maybe 4 times, and got no where with them.
I've found BMWNA to be arrogant, self-righteous, indignant, and very uncooperative / unwilling to help me. Maybe they think that if they do, they'll be setting a precedent, and then their collective ass will be hanging out in the wind. Afterall, how can you fix a problem....that doesn't exist.....in their minds.
My 2003 RT is my first ever BMW. There are things I like about it, and things I don't! At times....it can be a pretty close draw as to what is more predominant.
And....what is it with BMW owners and their attitude? They get sooo defensive if you even try to mention anything negative about the product. You're okay in their book, as long as you maintain a positive, upbeat attitude and/or opinion of the bike.
Me....being a new BMW owner, I see this and I don't like it, and I made a promise to myself when I bought my RT, that I would never get that way.
No bike is 100% perfect, and I'm totally okay with that. But.....for $16K or more, you deserve more than what you get, when you buy a BMW.
Just to show you how fair / open-minded I am.....I'm NOT going to put you on my ignore list.
Sorry if I offended you in some way, as it wasn't my intention to do so. But....your response to keeping my RT above 4000 rpm, was a bit "flip" in my opinion.
I've been riding for over 42 yrs., so I'm not a novice by any means. And.....my 2003 R1150RT is the most expensive bike that I've ever purchased. And believe me when I say, I did a lot of soul searching prior to buying it.
I consider a $16,000.00 motorcycle....a serious subject, just as I do the "surging issue", that afflicts so many.
I've explored 99% of the remedies, except that of a Techlusion unit. I've done the valve adj. / TB synch. routine, I've spoke to at least 10 BMW service techs and listened to all of their denials / opinions, til I'm blue in the face. I've talked to BMWNA at least 3, maybe 4 times, and got no where with them.
I've found BMWNA to be arrogant, self-righteous, indignant, and very uncooperative / unwilling to help me. Maybe they think that if they do, they'll be setting a precedent, and then their collective ass will be hanging out in the wind. Afterall, how can you fix a problem....that doesn't exist.....in their minds.
My 2003 RT is my first ever BMW. There are things I like about it, and things I don't! At times....it can be a pretty close draw as to what is more predominant.
And....what is it with BMW owners and their attitude? They get sooo defensive if you even try to mention anything negative about the product. You're okay in their book, as long as you maintain a positive, upbeat attitude and/or opinion of the bike.
Me....being a new BMW owner, I see this and I don't like it, and I made a promise to myself when I bought my RT, that I would never get that way.
No bike is 100% perfect, and I'm totally okay with that. But.....for $16K or more, you deserve more than what you get, when you buy a BMW.
Just to show you how fair / open-minded I am.....I'm NOT going to put you on my ignore list.
Last edited:
kenk
New member
Dano...after you tried everything and nothing seems to work, try a Techlusion R259. Sure...BMW should fix the problem. But after all these years of denial, they won't. So the cost of the device is much cheaper than what you will loose from any trade and the bike will run they way you expected it to run when you bought it without compromising the input devices to your ECU.
Many dealers are installing Techlusion devices and I have not heard of a single device causing damage to the motor. My opinion is its harder on a motor to run it overly lean than it is to run the motor with a more correct fuel/air mixture. Before the 1150 series motors, the European versions of the oilheads were open-loop bikes (no 02-sensor or cats) and ran at 3% CO. So surging was one of those problems us Yanks complained about and BMW ignored. Run the motor at 3% CO and you will experience a completely different motorcycle.
Many dealers are installing Techlusion devices and I have not heard of a single device causing damage to the motor. My opinion is its harder on a motor to run it overly lean than it is to run the motor with a more correct fuel/air mixture. Before the 1150 series motors, the European versions of the oilheads were open-loop bikes (no 02-sensor or cats) and ran at 3% CO. So surging was one of those problems us Yanks complained about and BMW ignored. Run the motor at 3% CO and you will experience a completely different motorcycle.
MarkF said:
"Well, Officer, I was going 65 in a 25MPH school zone, to keep my BMW from surging."
"Of course I rammed into the back of your SUV, lady. I never ride my bike at less than 4,000 RPM, and you were in the way."
"What's the big deal about a little rut carved across the grass? I have to keep my RT revved up to 4,000 RPM."
Lessee, Mark, if you put an oilhead in 1st gear, rev it up to 4,000 RPM, and pop the clutch, what speed would that translate to? Or, are you suggesting I should keep it revving at 4,000 and slip the clutch?
pmdave
twins4life
New member
Ok, I'm a beginner at oil heads, actually havnt had a BMW since the early 80's so I'm no expert on BMWNA.
This I know, everytime the EPA gets near an engine the engine runs worse and costs more to be in compliance.
I suspect that BMWNA, like everyone else is struggling to keep the EPA (Eliminate Petroleum Altogether) giggling. The Agency needs to be scaled back and forced to slow down. But in todays political society that wont happen. All we can do is undo as much EPA hardware as possible. None of my vehicles have a CAT, none have EGR. Horsepower, MPG, and longevity have all increased as a result of the disabling of the EPA devices. My trucks have both had the EPA devices disabled and run better and get better MPG.
I had a vehicle that surged, disabling the EGR fixed it 100%.
So give that my 97 R-1100 surges where can I buy a Techlusion R259 or whatever for it? ( And yes, the CAT on the bike is on it's way to the trash can)
I've PERSONALLY seen several engines overheat and be ruined by a plugged CAT or a CAT core that broke apart and clogged the outlet. How much do CATs REALLY save the environment if you factor in the ruined engines (which have to be replaced, engine manufacture is not really an environemntally friendly operation either), lower MPG which means buring MORE fuel?
BMW knows how to make a good running engine but I suspect that keeping the engine incompliance with EPA guidelines is the problem, something BMWNA is not going to admit.
This I know, everytime the EPA gets near an engine the engine runs worse and costs more to be in compliance.
I suspect that BMWNA, like everyone else is struggling to keep the EPA (Eliminate Petroleum Altogether) giggling. The Agency needs to be scaled back and forced to slow down. But in todays political society that wont happen. All we can do is undo as much EPA hardware as possible. None of my vehicles have a CAT, none have EGR. Horsepower, MPG, and longevity have all increased as a result of the disabling of the EPA devices. My trucks have both had the EPA devices disabled and run better and get better MPG.
I had a vehicle that surged, disabling the EGR fixed it 100%.
So give that my 97 R-1100 surges where can I buy a Techlusion R259 or whatever for it? ( And yes, the CAT on the bike is on it's way to the trash can)
I've PERSONALLY seen several engines overheat and be ruined by a plugged CAT or a CAT core that broke apart and clogged the outlet. How much do CATs REALLY save the environment if you factor in the ruined engines (which have to be replaced, engine manufacture is not really an environemntally friendly operation either), lower MPG which means buring MORE fuel?
BMW knows how to make a good running engine but I suspect that keeping the engine incompliance with EPA guidelines is the problem, something BMWNA is not going to admit.
MarkF
New member
It will do 65 MPH at 4,000 RPM in first? Did not know that.pmdave said:"Well, Officer, I was going 65 in a 25MPH school zone, to keep my BMW from surging."
pmdave
pmdave said:Lessee, Mark, if you put an oilhead in 1st gear, rev it up to 4,000 RPM, and pop the clutch, what speed would that translate to? Or, are you suggesting I should keep it revving at 4,000 and slip the clutch?
pmdave
That isn't what I meant. Start like you normally would then bring it up past 4,000 RPM before shifting. Don't ride around at 2,000-3,000 RPM like the cruiser riders do.
Look, if it doesn't work for you don't do it. It works for me and I'm happy.
bikerfish1100
New member
in defense of Dano's situation- your expectation that your $16K BMW should run right is totally valid. and there is a reality that many of the oilheads, especially RTs, will surge due to an overly condition of tune. a Techlusion is a very reasonable manner to resolve that issue, especially given that BMW corporate will do nothing/little about it.
in defense of Mark's position- BMWs want to be run above 4K. that goes all the way back to (at least) /6 airheads and newer. they shift better at higher revs (no agricultural clunking), they produce full electrical charge above 3.5K (important with the old 280 wt alts), the motor responds much more smoothly and pleasurably when run above 5K, and yes, surging is reduced, if not totally eliminated (at least while running it high).
riders that complain about how bad Beemers shift will find instantaneous happpiness by keeping upshift points above 5 or 6K.
in defense of Mark's position- BMWs want to be run above 4K. that goes all the way back to (at least) /6 airheads and newer. they shift better at higher revs (no agricultural clunking), they produce full electrical charge above 3.5K (important with the old 280 wt alts), the motor responds much more smoothly and pleasurably when run above 5K, and yes, surging is reduced, if not totally eliminated (at least while running it high).
riders that complain about how bad Beemers shift will find instantaneous happpiness by keeping upshift points above 5 or 6K.
