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Indian gearboxes in BMWs Worldwide!
- Thread starter oiasghar
- Start date
D
D-Mac
Guest
Interesting, especially the quote in the article, "We designed the gearboxes ourselves."
Does this mean we'll get a discount due to decreased overhead and production costs for BMW? I know the answer.....
MotorradMike
Lucky
Don't assume that everything made in India is crap. I've seen some very dodgy wrenches and micrometers from India but those were built without oversight from a company with an existing reputation.
There are good Engineers in India who likely welcome the chance to work with a company which wants performance as opposed to corners cut.
If BMW controls materials, process, and testing, they'll get a quality product at a lower price.
If they hand over design and production to an established company which doesn't need any oversight, such as Getrag, then what happens?
There are good Engineers in India who likely welcome the chance to work with a company which wants performance as opposed to corners cut.
If BMW controls materials, process, and testing, they'll get a quality product at a lower price.
If they hand over design and production to an established company which doesn't need any oversight, such as Getrag, then what happens?
Visian
look out!!!
interesting.
in Redmond last year, Pieter DeWaal said that BMW had no plans to sell motorcycles in either India or China.
yeah, right.
component manufacture is the first step and it won't be long before BMW is sourcing entire bikes to companies in these countries. Japan has done the same for many years.
ian
in Redmond last year, Pieter DeWaal said that BMW had no plans to sell motorcycles in either India or China.
yeah, right.
component manufacture is the first step and it won't be long before BMW is sourcing entire bikes to companies in these countries. Japan has done the same for many years.
ian
India is an industrial country & that's not limited to BMW stuff, so why the fuss? After all, they are one of the world nuke powers, so it seems they had the smarts to figure that out- a gear box isn't a flying leap past nuclear power, is it?
I changed out a transfer case in a 325xi that had a made in NY label-not sure if they are known for German labor/engineering either
, so it's a global economy, like it or not. Where something is made cannot be assumed to become where it is consumed
I changed out a transfer case in a 325xi that had a made in NY label-not sure if they are known for German labor/engineering either
, so it's a global economy, like it or not. Where something is made cannot be assumed to become where it is consumed
W
WILDPIG
Guest
why am i not suprised..........................lets see the resale value on most ANY bmw just dropped from 50% loss to 55-60% loss.... sounds bout right.......
We buy parts from India, they are better in quality and easier to work with than China. You do have to manage the vendor, same as anywhere.
One big difference is I really do not think the Chinese language and culture are well suited to highly technical things. They seem to have to use a lot of words to describe simple things. That is evolving. They also do not have good business ethics, underspecification supplies are very common.
The Indian language is better suited and structured more towards technical things. I think the business and supplier ethics is better too.
Rod
One big difference is I really do not think the Chinese language and culture are well suited to highly technical things. They seem to have to use a lot of words to describe simple things. That is evolving. They also do not have good business ethics, underspecification supplies are very common.
The Indian language is better suited and structured more towards technical things. I think the business and supplier ethics is better too.
Rod
Not sure what to make of this. India is now in joint ventures with Russia for military jets, so the image of the squatting back yard man beating out a brass piece over an open fire is obsolete.
As local immigrant parents have told me, their primary schools teach the 3r's, math and science better than we do any more. They are also exercising discipline, repeating classes until subject is actually mastered, not grading and teaching to LCD, etc. Which is why their kids are back home in boarding schools. Such education may well make for better college students, engineers, etc.
Another perspective: have the Indians yet taken a transmission design which was working, and then removed a circlip, degrading the design?
As local immigrant parents have told me, their primary schools teach the 3r's, math and science better than we do any more. They are also exercising discipline, repeating classes until subject is actually mastered, not grading and teaching to LCD, etc. Which is why their kids are back home in boarding schools. Such education may well make for better college students, engineers, etc.
Another perspective: have the Indians yet taken a transmission design which was working, and then removed a circlip, degrading the design?
mika
Still Wondering
I understand that this is a headline but I don’t understand the furor.
The challenge for BMW is quality control; in-house or when they outsource. So in this case they are outsourcing less than 150,000 gearboxes to a division of the Indian Hero Group. This is a 4+ billion dollar conglomerate that includes a 20 year joint venture with Honda (Between 2003 and 2004 they produced almost as many gearboxes for their motorcycles and scooters than BMW produced from 1923-2011). Customers in addition to BMW include Rotax, Hero Honda, Bosch, GM, Valeo, LG, Toyota,Videocon, Delorto, and Precitiex. Quality and quality control are the concerns for us as customers of a 'Geman' motorcycle manufacturer.
Many of you may already own components that they have made. For example the Delorto cab body some caf?® airheads sport may have been cast by Hero.
Ian I don’t think Pieter De Waal was being as duplicitous in his statement as you seem to be implying here and elsewhere. Very circumspect and cautious but not duplicitous.
But that discussion may be for another thread.
The challenge for BMW is quality control; in-house or when they outsource. So in this case they are outsourcing less than 150,000 gearboxes to a division of the Indian Hero Group. This is a 4+ billion dollar conglomerate that includes a 20 year joint venture with Honda (Between 2003 and 2004 they produced almost as many gearboxes for their motorcycles and scooters than BMW produced from 1923-2011). Customers in addition to BMW include Rotax, Hero Honda, Bosch, GM, Valeo, LG, Toyota,Videocon, Delorto, and Precitiex. Quality and quality control are the concerns for us as customers of a 'Geman' motorcycle manufacturer.
Many of you may already own components that they have made. For example the Delorto cab body some caf?® airheads sport may have been cast by Hero.
Ian I don’t think Pieter De Waal was being as duplicitous in his statement as you seem to be implying here and elsewhere. Very circumspect and cautious but not duplicitous.
But that discussion may be for another thread.
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I wouldn't be in a hurry to argue the virtues of Indian manufacturing. Less than satisfactory is more normal than not. But the cultural basis is definitely better suited than China. The historic problem with outsourcing in India has been legal restrictions there- there would be a lot more without them.
BMW can't outsource worth a hoot because their internal quality procedures are inadequate. The well known ( few) flaws of the current hexheads/camheads are almost all due to poor outsourcing oversight. Sending a couple engineeers to a foreign country does not in itself constitute an adequate quality practice for outsourcing but it is what every euro firm I've ever worked with does. They all see quality checks as a drag on costs when, if done correctly, they can actually speed manufacturing changes and reduce the inevitable issues that arise in outsourcing. There is a cultural reason that Koreans and Japanese make more reliable if less esoteric machinery than Germans.
Re China- I do agree with you about ethics in China (and Taiwan to a lesser extent- education is better and US influence is more pervasive there) The recent food and drug problems (eg pet food, heparin, and others) that killed animals and people in the US and elsewhere were caused by deliberate substitution of toxic but cheaper materials into those items by Chinese manufacturers and China has no regulatory or oversight structure that is remotely comparable to Western countries. More and more cheap food items are coming in from China (eg apple derived products, for example) and it is only a matter of time before someone wakes up, tests them and discovers they are loaded with pesticides that are dangerous and illegal in the US. I don't buy food items sourced from China, period, and when there on business prefer places where food is fresh and simple. Labs I see in China are generally staffed for show by people with no real skill (but who have degrees from local technical colleges) who routinely fake data (caught quite few of these) so management sees what it wants and doesn't have to deal with problems. This will get you fired instantly in the US but not there. Anything you buy from China goes through that type mentality so it is wise to understand the potential hazards and risks of any item sourced from there. A wrench is pretty basic and hard to hide obvious flaws- other things are not. You should expect what we define as cheating from any Chinese source and be pleasantly surprised if you don't find it or it is minor.
Over half of the generic drug active ingredients used in the US come from China and it is a good thing that for the most part they are simple and cheaply made chemicals that reduce the temptation for adulteration, etc. US systems for oversight are designed to spot accidental errors (and generally assume a maker is not out to commit outright fraud), not to prevent every possible deliberate attempt to sabotage a product (the reason the heparin problem got to the US, for example).
BMW can't outsource worth a hoot because their internal quality procedures are inadequate. The well known ( few) flaws of the current hexheads/camheads are almost all due to poor outsourcing oversight. Sending a couple engineeers to a foreign country does not in itself constitute an adequate quality practice for outsourcing but it is what every euro firm I've ever worked with does. They all see quality checks as a drag on costs when, if done correctly, they can actually speed manufacturing changes and reduce the inevitable issues that arise in outsourcing. There is a cultural reason that Koreans and Japanese make more reliable if less esoteric machinery than Germans.
Re China- I do agree with you about ethics in China (and Taiwan to a lesser extent- education is better and US influence is more pervasive there) The recent food and drug problems (eg pet food, heparin, and others) that killed animals and people in the US and elsewhere were caused by deliberate substitution of toxic but cheaper materials into those items by Chinese manufacturers and China has no regulatory or oversight structure that is remotely comparable to Western countries. More and more cheap food items are coming in from China (eg apple derived products, for example) and it is only a matter of time before someone wakes up, tests them and discovers they are loaded with pesticides that are dangerous and illegal in the US. I don't buy food items sourced from China, period, and when there on business prefer places where food is fresh and simple. Labs I see in China are generally staffed for show by people with no real skill (but who have degrees from local technical colleges) who routinely fake data (caught quite few of these) so management sees what it wants and doesn't have to deal with problems. This will get you fired instantly in the US but not there. Anything you buy from China goes through that type mentality so it is wise to understand the potential hazards and risks of any item sourced from there. A wrench is pretty basic and hard to hide obvious flaws- other things are not. You should expect what we define as cheating from any Chinese source and be pleasantly surprised if you don't find it or it is minor.
Over half of the generic drug active ingredients used in the US come from China and it is a good thing that for the most part they are simple and cheaply made chemicals that reduce the temptation for adulteration, etc. US systems for oversight are designed to spot accidental errors (and generally assume a maker is not out to commit outright fraud), not to prevent every possible deliberate attempt to sabotage a product (the reason the heparin problem got to the US, for example).
pglaves
#13338
BMW has had reason to be unhappy with its European transmission supplier, and European bearing suppliers for a number of years. Other than stereotypes we have no real reason to believe that this will make quality suffer.
In answer to a question about Chinese engines in G650 bikes I distinctly heard Pieter De Waal remind the audience that we live in a global economy and that BMW would continue to take advantage of global sources when doing so made sense (paraphrased).
In answer to a question about Chinese engines in G650 bikes I distinctly heard Pieter De Waal remind the audience that we live in a global economy and that BMW would continue to take advantage of global sources when doing so made sense (paraphrased).
chiba
hack'd
The quote was "developed", not "designed".
Big difference.
It's entirely likely that last year when the question was asked, BMW wasn't planning to build motorcycles in India. This still doesn't sound like BMW is building motorcycles in India. It sounds like a company in India is building gearboxes for BMW.
Big difference.
The Rotax thing wasn't exactly a travesty for BMW, now was it?
--chiba
mika
Still Wondering
business-standard.com/india was the first place I saw this last Friday (in Saturday's Bench Racing & Morning Reads). I have read several different versions but have not been able to find the press release from Hero nor anything from BMW as of yet.
"Pankaj Munjal, managing director, Hero Motors, said, 'We have developed the gearbox ourselves. Usually, components such as engines and transmissions are made by the company itself, as they involve advanced technology. We have achieved the expertise. BMW Motorrad will source gearboxes from us for products it sells globally.ÔÇØ The agreement would be for five-eight years depending on the transmissions sourced for different products by BMW Motorrad' "
Everyone, including the busines-standard make a leap that all gearboxes for all BMW models will be made by Hero. What if they developed and are making the gearbox for the new BMW C Scooter? We have been told through leaks in the press that the engine/s will be new so perhaps Hero developed the gearbox for the that application.
A contract for 5-8 years would cover the intial life expectancy of that model before a major redesign or shelving for electric of that model. The contract may offer the option for production of other gearboxes but the information is very thin at this point.
It still strikes me from a customer standpoint much to do about not much. The core challenge for BMW and concern for customers is the abiltiy to control quality in the product no matter where it is built. That remains an open issue accross the product line in the past, now and the future.
"Pankaj Munjal, managing director, Hero Motors, said, 'We have developed the gearbox ourselves. Usually, components such as engines and transmissions are made by the company itself, as they involve advanced technology. We have achieved the expertise. BMW Motorrad will source gearboxes from us for products it sells globally.ÔÇØ The agreement would be for five-eight years depending on the transmissions sourced for different products by BMW Motorrad' "
Everyone, including the busines-standard make a leap that all gearboxes for all BMW models will be made by Hero. What if they developed and are making the gearbox for the new BMW C Scooter? We have been told through leaks in the press that the engine/s will be new so perhaps Hero developed the gearbox for the that application.
A contract for 5-8 years would cover the intial life expectancy of that model before a major redesign or shelving for electric of that model. The contract may offer the option for production of other gearboxes but the information is very thin at this point.
It still strikes me from a customer standpoint much to do about not much. The core challenge for BMW and concern for customers is the abiltiy to control quality in the product no matter where it is built. That remains an open issue accross the product line in the past, now and the future.
D
D-Mac
Guest
You're right on both counts. However, I didn't say I had a problem with this decision in terms of quality, only that BMW will surely pocket the savings without passing on any benefits to the consumer - at least on the higher-end models anyway.
India is also an emerging market. People are already used to riding on two wheels, and there is increasing demand for luxury products. Making components there will likely lead to sales of bikes down the road (didn't Harley just start selling bikes in India?) It'll be important for BMW to have a spot in these markets.
osbornk
Old man in the mountains
Regardless of what BMW pays for the transmissions, they are going to price their bikes to make the most profit they can until the law of diminishing returns kicks in. This is the same thing all companies normally do.
I think part of BMW's oilhead transmission problems, was not the vnedors fault. BMW was concerned about driveline lash and specified non-undercut shift dogs to reduce it.
Companies that can not control their own quality can not control others. Incorrect shimming and off center machining, still insisting on hydraulic cam tensioners, after many failures and lots of others. They design a nice bike, then somewhere along the production process the little details go wrong.
Rod
rockbottom
Steve
A Harley mechanic will tell you that a significant portion of all of them are made in China or Taiwan.
Perhaps a better analogy to this are the Thai made Triumphs. I haven't heard quality complaints about them.
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