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New BMW Water-Cooled Boxer

Just for grins, where is the radiator on your bergman, and do you feel any heat from it.

Rod

The radiator on the 650 Burgman is up front, under the fairing behind the front wheel.

And no, not even a bit of heat from it or the engine. Not a bit, even sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on a summer day with the electric fan going full blast.

I wish it had grip heaters like my GSA though. Don't know why they don't offer them in the USA version. They do elsewhere in the world, grip and seat heaters.
 
Now that is what BMW needs to study, how Suzuki manages the air flow such that the engine heat is not noticed. Then a waterboxer would be just fine.

Rod
 
As to the response about Harley's market position and success with a "traditional design": I feel it has a LOT more to do with highly effective marketing and developing a feeling in the pulic that a "Harley" is the bike to own and ride, than it is the design itself. Yes, Harley should be credited with developing a product line that has stood the test of time and change. But it is a clearly dated design base compared to other more modern engine designs. Perhaps its too bad that eventual government regulations deal the final blow more than does true marketability.

But the fact is, is that Harley is very near the end of a product line that can move ahead against pending noise and emission regulations. The air cooled v-twin is simply limited in that regard, especially a v-twin with a shared crankpin design like the Harley.

Similarly too, the air/oil cooled boxer is reaching its limit of prolonged marketability and noise/emission compliance. BMW is simply moving the boxer-twin base design into the future. Sure, it could probably continue the current R12 engine for many years as is. But it would very likely not improve beyond its current state. Now, I for one feel it is a great engine, VERY capable and satisfying, and I'd buy one tomorrow, ten years from now, 20 years from now. But, I'm one of your common/traditional BMW market types, and BMW has to look to future marketability and growth with a new engine.
 
I agree with Andy. The air-oil cooled boxer twin, and certainly the 45-degree air cooled v-twin architectures have gone about as far as they can go. Could BMW punch the boxer out to 1250 cc? Probably, but incremental changes can't make it into a truly modern engine. Harley is living on borrowed time with its air cooled motor but they surely have noted that the water cooled twin hasn't been a big seller, so they are kinda stuck with what sells.

I criticize BMW for a number of things but salute them for the bold moves they have been making recently, including the impending "wet head".

Pete (R1200RT)
 
I am cautiously awaiting the water cooled boxer motor, I think it is probably the only way BMW can go if they choose to keep making a boxer motor much longer.

I am an AirHead guy, and not much impressed with the newest oil head motors. I owned a 2000 R1100R and did not keep it long.
Friends who have the more current oil heads have mixed emotions about them and their service costs.

As for the water cooled HD. I think the reason it does not sell well is due to the overall design of the motorcycle and has not much to do with it being water cooled.
If they put that motor in one of their regular touring chassis, I'll bet it would take off in the market place a lot better than it has.
The water cooled motor is sweet through out the rev range, the bike itself is fugly IMHO. Plus, I have not yet met the person who fits the ergonomic design of that thing.
 
HD has made a living selling lifestyle rather than performance. No offense to anyone that owns a HD, but appearance is a major factor in that market. Contrast that with BMW GS owners. When I bought mine, my daughter asked my wife if I actually thought it was a good looking bike.
 
A friend of mine works for Harley in the dyno room, testing engines. He said the V-Rod engine (Harley's current water cooled engine) really kicked butt on the dynos and tested very well, very durable, with great power.

I agree, that had Harley put that engine into a modern interpretation of their classic touring bikes it would probably have sold better. But they put it in a limited use stretched cruiser style bike that appealled to almost none of the typical Harley buyers. Maybe that was the intent, to get the non-typical HD buyer. But with Harley's resources and capabilities they could have easily created a Touring V-Rod to test which bike/engine sold better.

BMW, over the past eight years has shwon some bold market moves. Some good, some just ok. But give BMW credit for trying and for going for some diversity in the product lines. With that I welcome the water-boxer, even though I feel the current R1200 engine is a great example of what can be done without the added complexity of water cooling.
 
There is another problem with the Vrod, it is a 60?? angle engine and will never sound like the 45?? engine. If they fixed that it would sell much better.
 
I have seen a couple of the V-rod's that have added the Tour Glide fairing and it looks real sharp.
During the short time i owned a Road King and was on some of their forums, a few people had done that mod to their V - rods.

I think HD missed the boat on that one, but also think all the HD motors will be water cooled within the next few years.

I also agree that BMW has stretched a lot in the last few years with new models. As we all know the brand is looked at by the younger crowd as motorcycles for older riders . Now with their efforts in road racing and more models in the ADV category, I think they are on the right track.

Doug :bikes
 
The V-Rod 60 degree v-twin engine is not like the 45 degree v-twin, for more than the v-angle. The iconic 45 degree HD engine has a shared crankpin for the connecting rods, from which the firing order produces the "potatoe-potatoe" sound. HD would have to get really innovative to produce that sound in an engine with staggered crankpins like the V-Rod (maybe a soundtrack?).

But almost more important than the look, is the HD sound for marketability. Harleys that don't look AND sound like a Harley don't sell. So HD will have to go with the water cooled heads on the current engine to maintain market share. Honda proved that when the 75 HP Shadow (with a staggered crankpin v-twin) went to a shared crankpin 60 HP v-twin. Reduced power in the same size engine overcame loss of market share with the "perception of power" in the sound of a Harley. Bikers are a fickle bunch.

Fortunately, BMW isn't market limited by something as trivial as sound. Though we certainly all know the sound a bike makes is as much its appeal as its looks. Any Ducati, Triumph or Laverda triple, Aprillia or Honda V-four proves that. I think the latest R12GS has a great sound from a stock exhaust. So marry that to a water cooled boxer with 130+ HP (I have heard that now from a few dealer sources already) and we could have a class leading soul stirring big twin bike to come. There is no Harley anywhere near stock tune, or with a $35k Screaming Eagle package, or with some SERIOUS aftermarket mods that can even get close to those numbers! GO BMW!!
 
I must be getting real old, because i fail to see the need for 130 hp on a street motorcycle.

Also cannot fathom a 1200cc so called off road/ on road motorcycle. Most of those are like the SUV's that the soccer Mom's drive. The only off road the will ever see is when they run over a garbage can left in the driveway.:brow
 
I must be getting real old, because i fail to see the need for 130 hp on a street motorcycle.

Also cannot fathom a 1200cc so called off road/ on road motorcycle. Most of those are like the SUV's that the soccer Mom's drive. The only off road the will ever see is when they run over a garbage can left in the driveway.:brow

As to #1, I tend to agree. Hard to justify the 110hp the GS currently has.

As to #2 I think you're perhaps judging based only upon personal experience, and not looking at what some people need. In my case I traded from an F650GS to an R1200GSA because my wife loves to ride the dirt roads with me, 2-up. The smaller bikes are not comfortable two up ... at least not for us. We don't have pretenses of doing single track through sand, but there are lots of fun dirt roads here in Michigan, and lots of fun to be had on the dirt roads of CO this coming summer! JMHO
 
On the 2nd thought , I was just generalizing.

Never even considered riding two up on an off road machine.
:buds Kudo's to you for your skill !!!

I'm originally from Michigan and remember back in the day riding some great trails, and gravel roads.
 
I must be getting real old, because i fail to see the need for 130 hp on a street motorcycle...

I also agree, but when you consider the number of bikes with 130 hp and more that are sold, you have to agree there is a real desire for the additional power which translates to more money for the motorcycle companies.

And don't feel bad, you are not the only one around here who is getting old. :ha

E :lurk
 
I must be getting real old, because i fail to see the need for 130 hp on a street motorcycle.

Also cannot fathom a 1200cc so called off road/ on road motorcycle. Most of those are like the SUV's that the soccer Mom's drive. The only off road the will ever see is when they run over a garbage can left in the driveway.:brow

i am not sure you understand the model. It's not an off-road bike, but an off-pavement bike. it's strengths are long days over the road, no mater the surface.

i just returned from a 1600 mile 4-day weekend trip, where i visited a number of National Forest campgrounds and about 20% unpaved roads.

not only can my 1150 handle the big highway days (my 1150 has an overdrive 6th gear that loafs along at 4k rpm @ 80mph), it can also handle the unpaved surfaces quite well, even when fully loaded with camping gear.

it's more of a tractor than an SUV, and there are very few other bikes that can do what it does so well.

in an odd paradox... i'd like to have a bit more power so that i can use less of it while riding. :scratch iow, i don't like to have to tap the majority of the bike's power to do anything.

ian
 
I did not mean to sound like i was throwing stones at those who ride the GS's of the world. :hug
But for me my 650 Wee Strom did all that at a much lower weight and price.

I decided that i was not interested in riding off pavement as much as i thought i would like it, to each his own.

I also no longer camp or shoot guns, uncle Sam cured me of all desire for both those activities.:wow
 
I did not mean to sound like i was throwing stones at those who ride the GS's of the world. :hug
But for me my 650 Wee Strom did all that at a much lower weight and price.

oh, i didn't think you were casting aspersions on GS, just reacting to your comment about being "off-road" bikes. What they can handle very well is non-paved roads while packed to the sky with camping gear. Their real strength is continent crushing... extended adventure travel.

Having spent some time on a Wee, you either weigh very little, pack very light, take shorter trips or ride a bit slower... all of which are nothing to be ashamed of.

it's been my experience that there is no way the Wee can haul a full-size rider with a large amount of gear, mile after mile, paved and unpaved, 80mph all day, easily knocking out 1K a day, with the same nonplussed composure of the GS.

the Wee can probably do it, but with a lot more stress on the machine and the rider.

1139687653_6U5j3-L.jpg
 
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BMW Water-Cooled Boxer

I must be getting real old, because i fail to see the need for 130 hp on a street motorcycle.

Interesting observation and I can completely understand it though for some it's not a question of how much power you need but how much you can have (or want). Some of you might consider me an old dude at 51 years of age and I've had the pleasure of riding the BMW S1000RR with 193 hp and an Audi RS6 with 560 hp. Neither vehicle exceeded my tolerance for power -- I loved them both but would be happy with more!

Kent
 
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