K12RS + Hannigan Classic rig finished

I was holding off posting this here until I could get a good photo uploaded.

So...



Got the bike in June, the 'car in November - found a great (and I mean GREAT) deal locally on a USED Hannigan Classic with all the bells & whistles - disc brake, electronic camber control, etc. - and got it up to the crew at C Stanley Motorsports in Middleburg PA. Luckily they had to be in my area over the weekend to pick up another customer's bike, so they graciously brought my rig down to me at the same time.

Yes, I realize the bike is blue & the 'car is black! My plan is to have each one "striped" or "accented" in the other's color so they match a little better. I thought about repainting (entirely) one or the other, but I decided ... why bother? Maybe I'll just head to eBay & get some black body panels for the K.

The *only* downside is that I've never driven a sidecar rig before, so I'm going to have to learn - but I'm committed to learning. My primary monkey will be my almost 9-year old daughter, who is practically beside herself with excitement at "her" new sidecar...

...but she DID ask me the other day "Do I have to ride in it while it's still this cold outside?"

--chiba

Nice rig. I hope to see it in Bloomsburg, Pa this July at the National.


ROC-ROC

It's black and blue. So what?
Just as long as you ain't s'alls good.
Post more pics when ya can.

Ride, pose, repeat.

Very Nice!

Just tell her

that it is a K-bike... it will provide all of the heat that she could possibly need.

To help avoid turning your body the same color as your new rig, I highly recommend taking the Sidecartrike education program. The Motorcycle Safety League of Virginia, Inc. offers frequent three-wheeler courses, that include student sidecar outfits. The chief instructor is Cundiff Simmons, and he really knows his stuff.

It's well worthwhile to take the course and get some coaching by a qualified instructor. For more information, contact the Evergreen Safety Council, www.esc.org and search for S/TEP.

And, while you're waiting for your class date to roll around, get a copy of Driving A Sidecar Outfit from Printwerk Graphics. 800 736-1117 or Whitehorse Press 800 531-1133.

Because you're an experienced motorcyclist, you'll have to unlearn a few skills and learn a few new tactics to be prepared to drive your rig on public roads. It's not just a bike with this extra bag on the side.

pmdave

Had the Yellow Book for about a year - and already signed up for a sidecar class that happens at the end of April

2 days of practice... I may not be black & blue but boy are my arms sore!!

--chiba

chiba13 said:

I may not be black & blue but boy are my arms sore!!

Click to expand...

From what?

Still got stock trail on the front wheel, eh?

pmdave

No, actually the installers did a trail reduction modification. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to turn with everything up front being stock. I can totally see why people go for the leading link front end now! Wow.

U-turns are the worst, but a close second is those "fun" highway on- or off-ramps that have to circle all the way around. It's a workout!

--chiba

So, are you hanging your butt off toward turns?

Even with a very well set up rig, it still takes about double the physical effort as a two-wheeler. That may have something to do with why many hackers have huge hairy arms with their knuckles dragging on the ground.

pmdave

chiba13 said:

No, actually the installers did a trail reduction modification. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to turn with everything up front being stock. I can totally see why people go for the leading link front end now! Wow.

U-turns are the worst, but a close second is those "fun" highway on- or off-ramps that have to circle all the way around. It's a workout!

--chiba

Click to expand...

I must have a unique rig. I suffer none of these issues.
As this is the only rig I've owned I've nothing to judge it against.
Other than the smaller rigs at the S/TEP training.

I can literally steer with my finger tips. Hmmm.

The K bikes have relatively more vertical rake and longer trail, to allow more neutral steering of the heavy machine when leaned into a turn.

Trail can be reduced by changes to the triple clamps, but there is a limit due to clearances, etc. So, even with a trail reduction, it might be 10% or 20%. Some machines (I'm thinking here of the cruiser) have a front end that allows a reduction in trail via changing the ball joint cross brace. Everything looks stock, but trail can be much shorter than stock.

On my K1 rig, with EZS leading link, I wanted even easier steering, so I took it to Liberty Sidecars in Seattle. Pete measured actual trail with a laser tool, and then welded in a new pivot bracket farther back on the swingarm, to result in 13mm trail.

A leading link provides greater lateral stability than a sliding fork, and allows trail to be whatever you want. But of course we're talking big bucks and a lot of effort to get it installed and tuned to your liking.

The "shade tree" technique for gaging trail is to watch the nose of the sidecar while turning the handlebars left to right. More trail will result in the nose moving farther from side to side. Less trail means the sidecar nose will barely move side to side.

Front tire profile also has a direct effect on steering effort. A round profile ("motorcycle") tire will have less resistance to turning. A flat profile ("car") tire will have more resistance. And a very wide, low profile front tire will have a mind of it's own when encountering parallel pavement ruts. IMHO, 135 is the absolute maximum front tire width for acceptable steering.

It's probably best for a novice sidecar herder to stay with longish trail during the learning phase. Later on, when you're ready, there are several ways to reduce trail, if your arms haven't developed appropriate muscles.

pmdave

A wide profile front tire can actually help turn the rig at slow speeds, because the contact ring of the tire is way off to the side, due to rake.

But the bad news is that a wide profile tire (I think this is a 170 or maybe 190) tends to steer itself when encountering surface irregularities. When there is a groove in the pavement, the contact ring contacts the groove and instantly steers the front end toward the side of the groove. (think darting from side to side at highway speed)

pmdave

With a round profile "motorcycle" tire fitted (as I recall this was a 140 x 100 x 15 rear tire) there is less sideway shift of the contact ring, so less affect on turning. And with the contact ring always closer to the bike centerline, there is rarely any unexpected sideways darting over grooves.

But, the bad news is that a round profile motorcycle tire is taller than a low profile auto tire, and tire outside diameter has an effect on trail. The larger the diameter, the greater the trail. Let's also note that there may not be sufficient fender clearance.

So, the result is that the taller, round profile tire is better at straight ahead steering, but increases resistance to turning, demanding more muscle on the bars.

pmdave

A good compromise is this 135/65 s 15 auto tire, which has a smaller OD for decreased trail, but less sideways shift of the contact ring when turning.

pmdave

PMD, is that last picture, the 135/65 15 tire, is that on a motorcycle front wheel?

Right now my bike still has motorcycle tires on it front & rear. I'm looking for the right size car tire for the rear wheel (190 or 195/45 17), but I thought the front wheel wouldn't be wide enough for a car tire.

As far as steering, I'm sure it'll get easier as time goes by. It's just a matter of getting used to it. The K12RS bars aren't particularly wide, so there's not a ton of leverage, which means increased effort. I managed to get it round my office's parking garage yesterday with no trouble.

Turning from a dead stop is pretty easy, and doing things like changing lanes or following a road/highway curve at 60 mph is no problem. It's things like a highway exit ramp at 30 that take the muscle!!

I rode my regular bike to work today... and thought about the hack all the way in

--chiba

The wheels in all three photos are the same EZS hub, with different rim halves bolted on. The rims are sized for European sports car tires.

There has been some controversy over the years about using auto tires on motorcycle rims. One theory is that auto tires and motorcycle tires are made to different specs and tolerances, so you shouldn't mis-match. Typically, conventional auto tires have a much wider profile, requiring a suitably wide rim.

When mounting the rear motorcycle tire to the narrower auto rim, the tire inflated OK, but wasn't as snug as I would have preferred. It was an experiment. I ran it tubless, and it didn't leak or slip, but I think it was marginal.

I've heard of BMW hackers mounting an auto tire to a BMW motorcycle rim, and noting that it was extremely snug but otherwise seemed to fit.

I had a discussion with a tire rep about sizes, and he felt that all tires of a given diameter would be the same actual size, except for manufacturing tolerances. However, I've never encountered motorcycle tires that didn't mount a motorcycle rim acceptably.

I believe the actual bead cross sections are different for auto vs motorcycle rims. However, rubber is able to stretch a bit to accomodate different beads. For instance, it's possible to mount a tubeless radial motorcycle tire on a tube-type tapered bead.

Frankly, I would discourage mixing and matching tires and rims. You need to be very clever about what you're doing, and willing to accept responsibility for the results. You can't expect anyone in the industry to approve of anything other than the manufacturers recommendations.

pmdave

pmdave said:

Frankly, I would discourage mixing and matching tires and rims. You need to be very clever about what you're doing, and willing to accept responsibility for the results. You can't expect anyone in the industry to approve of anything other than the manufacturers recommendations.

Click to expand...

Some shops won't do it either for liability reasons.
So it may be a DIY scenario.

I rode mine for a week before taking it 375 miles to the rally past July.
I'm only running it on the rear as the front fender prohibits anything else.

My thoughts were for traction/mileage/price in that order.

~ Jim

(good thread... thanks guys)

I would suggest a different set of priorities for the front tire.

Steering/mileage/traction

Although it has been popular with European combinations to provide auto tires with a very wide profile, I prefer a round profile front tire for better steering. Low profile is OK, because a tall tire allows more flex in the sidewall that interferes with steering.

Mileage is a consideration, but the relatively lower weight on the front means a motorcycle tire will survive long enough on a rig. Rear tire wear is much greater than the front.

Traction on an outfit is of less concern, because sliding and drifting are normal tactics, not crises. All tires have some side slip. Increasing the slip angle on an outfit is a way to manage roll forces--but with an increased wear.

If price is part of the equation, I suggest that handling trumps price. It would be a false economy if a cheap tire caused a crash.

A fender is only a minor concern. If it doesn't fit, get out the fiberglass and make what's needed (as I did with the K1 fender on the EZS rig)

pmdave