Harley-Davidson's aging biker problem

I'm enjoying this spirited discussion. It's remained civil, interesting and informative.

It appears that several questions / propositions are being floated all at once here - having a little trouble sorting out the apples from the oranges.

For example:

BMW needs to hold the line on pricing and push away from the table a bit when it comes to 'cutting edge engineering' - bikes are becoming too expensive to own and maintain / repair.

BMW should not offer a 'cheapened product line' just to appeal to entry-level riders. It needs to remain a premiere marquee.

Motorcycling is hardly expensive when compared to other recreational pursuits such as sailing or flying.

Used BMW's may be one way to opening the door to entry-level customers.

BMW will remain a top-shelf product offering, and a market for those with high discretionary incomes.

How do we get young adults re-interested in the passion of motorcycling?

I'm content with the status quo of products and rider demographics - let a sleeping dog lie.

All good talking points - as I said - I'm enjoying this discussion!

Speaking for myself, if it wasn't for a used airhead, I most likely wouldn't be on a Beemer. But if and whenever the time comes, I'll probably replace it with another airhead.

I got to say, I really like the H-D XR12. If I came across a used one for the right price, I would consider it.

Greenwald said:

It appears that several questions / propositions are being floated all at once here...

...BMW needs to hold the line on pricing and push away from the table a bit when it comes to 'cutting edge engineering' - bikes are becoming too expensive to own and maintain / repair.

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In my opinion, the quality and engineering of BMW bikes is not all that different from comparable Japanese bikes. BMW charges a bit more, but over the past few years, as Japanese motorcycles have gotten better, it's become increasingly difficult to attribute that extra cost to better engineering or better overall quality.

The initial purchase price of BMW motorbikes might be high, but honestly, it's not all that much higher than comparable bikes with comparable features from other brands. It's mostly just that BMW's line is geared toward the upper end where their niche is ÔÇö they don't make lower-end models. Where BMW prices seem exorbitant is in much of the after-purchase gear/clothing/parts/service that often seems 30 or 40 percent higher than it should be.

I am a member in a local BMW club (BMW MOA sanctioned). I am not one of the "oldtimers" and I'm not sure what happened, but the typical owner has changed significantly over the last 30 years. The club was founded in 1972, it is charter number 21. Looking through the club archives, I can see a lot of young owners back then. The club was active and thriving and even had a rally every year - the Rubber City Rally. I don't hink BMWs were on the same price level back then. How could the guys have afforded them then?
Now, the average rider in the club is definitely over 45 and in pretty good position, financially . The most expensive BMW motorcycle costs twice as much as the cheapest car you can buy.

I don't think the cost of a BMW motorcycle relative to a car has changed much over the years. When I bought my new R65 in 1981, it cost me over $4,000, and that was the year after I bought a new Mazda 626 for $7,000.

That means that the entry level BMW bike cost 57% of a decent Japanese sedan.

Now you can buy a G650GS for what, $8,000? At 57%, that means you should be able to buy a decent Japanese sedan for $14,000. Actually, I think it would cost more than that to get a decent car, so BMWs, by at least one rough measure, are cheaper now than in the early 80s.

Mika said:

I suspect face to face over coffee we could easily come to a better understanding of my post than it seems to have left with you at this point.

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Mika,

There wasn't any offense taken, I just don't care for terms like "Destination Brand". A few years back, a Mercedes dealer tried to sell me a car with an automatic transmission, which I've never cared for. When he finally understood that I didn't want the car, he said good-bye with the lovely phrase ............ "I could tell you weren't Mercedes material, yet.."


Have a good one.

DarrylRi said:

I don't think the cost of a BMW motorcycle relative to a car has changed much over the years. When I bought my new R65 in 1981, it cost me over $4,000, and that was the year after I bought a new Mazda 626 for $7,000.

That means that the entry level BMW bike cost 57% of a decent Japanese sedan.

Now you can buy a G650GS for what, $8,000? At 57%, that means you should be able to buy a decent Japanese sedan for $14,000. Actually, I think it would cost more than that to get a decent car, so BMWs, by at least one rough measure, are cheaper now than in the early 80s.

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DarrylRi,

Are you sure you paid over $4000 for a R65 in 1981? I paid $3600 for a leftover (new) 1984 R80ST in 1985, which I then traded in 1986 for a K75c with an MSRP of $4250. The K75c was number 30 of the US production run.

However, I do get your point. In some relative perspectives the prices might not be that out of whack. I paid $11,000 for a Buick Century (yes, I hear the laughter), the same year I paid $3600 for the R80ST. But, I contend that the disposable income of younger US riders has diminished and that is the issue for the company and our club. As a case in point, the annual auto insurance premium for a young driver (under 25) with a clean record is now more than I paid for a year (possibly two) of tuition at a very large public university. From that perspective, I'm amazed that we have any young riders, at all.

Is the used market the place to attract the young riders? I seems like the urban hipsters have adopted the older airheads, which is really interesting. Now, if we could only get some interest in the venerable and reliable k-bikes. The aesthetics are more challenging than the airheads, but the prices are shamefully low.

Have a good one.

36654 said:

DarrylRi,

Are you sure you paid over $4000 for a R65 in 1981? I paid $3600 for a leftover (new) 1984 R80ST in 1985, ......

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Sorry, guys, but comparing entry level bike prices with cars and using that as a measure may be as out of line as using the most expensive one, which I did.
Fact is, that MOST BMWs that are being sold, are more than $12,000.-

And you need to go back further than 1981 to assess real changes.

Well, I don't have the paperwork anymore, but $4k is what sticks in my head. That probably includes registration and taxes as well, but then the $7k number for my Mazda would also have those included the number.

Regardless, I don't think actual, exact dollar amount is really that important. The point is that, in relative purchasing power terms, the cost of a BMW motorcycle hasn't really changed a lot over the years. They have always been expensive, with a price that is comparable to a decent new car.

Mike, I didn't mean to denigrate your opinion, but was just bringing up some numbers I personally had in mind. I was single and making about $28k/year in 1981, which was a pretty good salary. That's probably like someone making $80k now, which was not unusual for a college grad a couple years ago going into marketing or business.

When I was under 25 and living in Los Angeles, insurance costs were a significant bill to me, even on my computer programmer's salary (I often had one or two tickets on my driving record). Still, buying a bike wasn't a huge sacrifice for me.

Someone making a significantly lower living, or having a family to support, would, naturally, have a harder time buying and maintaining a BMW, and that's pretty much inherent in BMW's marketing: "The Ultimate Driving Machine", "The Legendary Motorcycles of Germany".

One way around that, of course, is getting into a used BMW. We just had a friend here for a few days. He came up here and bought a 1995 BMW 528 wagon for $900. I didn't think you could get a running car for $900, but he drove it back to LA. The paint wasn't great, the interior was a little tired, but it started and ran nicely, and everything worked. And I'm having fun right now riding around on a 1981 R65 that a friend gave to me. I had to do a little work on it, and I've put about $350 into it, but I'm enjoying the heck out of it.

To me, the real problem for BMW and Harley, among others, is not the cost to buy into one of these "aspirational brands", but rather that kids don't grow up with the same interests any more. Their focus has moved on from internal combustion to electronics.

I'm a computer geek, and yet I see that my nieces and nephews have little interest in bikes or cars -- far less than I did. Most don't even bother to get a driver's license immediately upon turning 16. (One niece is the only family member in the next generation to do as I did: acquire her license on the day she turned 16.) It's not as important to have wheels when you are always in contact with your friends by text message, facebook and online games.

criminaldesign said:

Speaking for myself, if it wasn't for a used airhead, I most likely wouldn't be on a Beemer. But if and whenever the time comes, I'll probably replace it with another airhead.

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If it wasn't for used airheads, I definitely would not be on a beemer.. er, beemers. If I didn't have the airhead bug, I'd be on a Suzuki GS or Honda CB.

I have 4 old BMW's that together still cost less than a brand new BMW.

Price and availability is a huge factor for the younger generation (in addition to a shifted focus) as to why there aren't more kids on BMW's. That is, of course, unless mommy and daddy pay their way..

EDIT: And if you think I'm being facetious, as I type this, 2 kids in the lab here are talking about how their parents are paying for their motorcycles.

crazydrummerdude said:

EDIT: And if you think I'm being facetious, as I type this, 2 kids in the lab here are talking about how their parents are paying for their motorcycles.

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Nathan,

Excuse me, but I assume you are still taking classes. Your statement about mommy and daddy paying for the toys doesn't surprise me. For many people, college is a "finishing school" that everyone in their social group does. If pressed, a lot of these students and their parents have little clue why they are there or what they hope to get out of it. Considering the obscene cost of college (Yes, I work at one), this "finishing school" philosophy is bad for both the customer (parent(s)/student) and the school.

As I have become more wise (i.e., old), I've come to the conclusion that the general opinion on the value of college is quite similar to our previously held opinions on the safety of mortgages and the value of homes. Buyer beware.

Have a good one.

Petrol (gas) price factor

I haven't been on here in a wee while but have just spent the last hour reading this entire thread, a wonderful discussion with a variety of inputs.
Being raised in England I grew up on bicycles, some purchased and some I cobbled together from parts- I know which I had more fun riding !
Upon reaching 17 (legal age) I bought my first motorbike, a well-used/abused Suzuki TS 100 cc Trial bike- the bike was cheap and parts were readily available.
I graduated through small cc Yamaha/Honda bikes until splashing out on a used BMW R45, a bike I'd lusted after in the showroom for several months. I think the main reason I bought it was that it was the only one in our small town (15,000) and I wanted something away from the mainstream. I also factored in the reasonably priced insurance and good mpg- very important in our country where gas is expensive (65% of the cost of a gallon is taxes) !!!
I rode every day, summer and winter- either commuting or travelling the country with like-minded friends.
When I came to the States in '94 I was surprised that there weren't too many small bikes around, but the same was true of cars too, I suppose with US gas prices being relativly cheap then the majority preferred the comfort of a larger capacity vehicle (2 or 4 wheeled) At home smaller engined vehicles are the norm, with most new cars getting +45 mpg and some diesel models getting +65 mpg.
Bikes/ Scooters are regularly used for commuting due to their low cost and ease of parking, I didn't own a car until I came to America in '94, simply because I didn't need one.
I'm upset on a regular basis when I see young "Billy" or "Jenny" driving to High School in a shiny new car that Mum/ Dad has bought for them, costing more than my combination of cars & bikes that I've worked my @$$ off to own.
Sorry, I've drifted from the point- there seem to be a lack of small, used bikes out there for folks to get started on for a limited initial investment, due to a lack of need for them in previous years. Manufacturers need to start producing smaller, yet consumer attractive bikes at a reasonable price to help the Scooter/ Bicycle folks transition to the next level. I recently bought an '02 F650GS Dakar, but was seriously considering a new Yamaha XT 250- great price, mpg the works!!
The Dakar was the better option as I love to travel but the XT would have been great around town. We need to give people more options and they'll soon come on board.
Just my 2 cents worth;
Cheers,
Ian

Yes, but...

what is it about motorcycling that is so compelling for most of us? My take on it is the proprioceptive sense that comes into play on a motorcycle is the driver. There are few sports or activities that can match the acceleration, g-forces and other sensory factors of motorcycling. Downhill skiing may be one, gymnastics, perhaps, piloting an F-18 for sure.

All the "reasons" posited here for riding sound good, and there may be some validity for many of them, but I believe if you're honest you'll find that physiology holds the key for all of us.

Considering the popularity of roller coasters for young people (mostly) I do wonder why they haven't caught on to motorcycling in greater numbers.

A possible solution to the selling of motorcycles: Hire Nate Kern, and others like him, to take people double-up around a race track on his S1000 RR.

One of the things that would tend to turn me off motorcycling as a social activity would be to check out the agenda on so many motorcycle club meetings: They either start or end (or both) at a local watering hole.

As a social activity it would seem most attractive to set up club meetings as tech events and make it an open invitation to, especially young non-bikers, to come and learn. It seems as rational as sitting in a beer garden to advance the sport.

Caveat: Dr. orders - I can drink only at Thanksgiving and New Years.

Maylett said:

In my opinion, the quality and engineering of BMW bikes is not all that different from comparable Japanese bikes. BMW charges a bit more, but over the past few years, as Japanese motorcycles have gotten better, it's become increasingly difficult to attribute that extra cost to better engineering or better overall quality.

The initial purchase price of BMW motorbikes might be high, but honestly, it's not all that much higher than comparable bikes with comparable features from other brands. It's mostly just that BMW's line is geared toward the upper end where their niche is — they don't make lower-end models. Where BMW prices seem exorbitant is in much of the after-purchase gear/clothing/parts/service that often seems 30 or 40 percent higher than it should be.

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One of the funny things that I get all the time from HD riders is that they all, across the board, think that my R1200R must be very expensive because of the roundel on the tank. Given the fact that new CVO Ultras are running in the $30,000+ range, it is a major surprise to them that many of the BMW bikes cost less than just about anything most of them ride, sometime significantly so.

This is a great discussion, and if you really look at the problem, it simply resolves to the basic situation that motorcycling, essentially a hobby activity and not a necessity item, is totally dependent on disposable income, of which most people find in very short supply due to the current economic situation. This is also happening in a lot of other hobby industries, so we are not alone in trying to figure out how to bring new blood into something we love.

We are trying to attract young people into our ranks, and we are competing with the internet, Facebook, and all the electronic virtual realities that they have become fascinated with and addicted too, and which cost far less than any bike to get active. Additionally, they do not have to get out in the weather, get their hands dirty, or actually associate with live humans, while they let their fingers do the walking and talking while online munching on their Big Mac's and sipping a latte or beer. Small wonder we have a childhood obesity problem here, and that at age 61 I can still out swim or physically outlast most of the teens I teach scuba or motorcycle safety to.

Harley Davidson says it doesn't have a problem. In the current issue of Cycle Word, a product introduction article has a quote from a HD product manager that says HD has the biggest share of riders in the 18-35 street bike market. If that's true, that sounds like a decent pipeline.

Anyname said:

Harley Davidson says it doesn't have a problem. In the current issue of Cycle Word, a product introduction article has a quote from a HD product manager that says HD has the biggest share of riders in the 18-35 street bike market. If that's true, that sounds like a decent pipeline.

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Sort of like owning the largest share of a Key when the sea level and tide are rising.

Just from informal and totally unscientific observations made while I've been out and about, I don't see many 18- to 35-year-olds riding Harleys. Just like ten, twenty or thirty years ago, that age group (especially the younger end of it) is mostly riding Japanese bikes with a few Ducatis thrown into the mix. And just like over the past few decades, as today's 18- to 35-year-olds grow older, I suspect that they'll tend to switch over to Harleys and, yes, BMWs.

Maylett said:

Just from informal and totally unscientific observations made while I've been out and about, I don't see many 18- to 35-year-olds riding Harleys. Just like ten, twenty or thirty years ago, that age group (especially the younger end of it) is mostly riding Japanese bikes with a few Ducatis thrown into the mix. And just like over the past few decades, as today's 18- to 35-year-olds grow older, I suspect that they'll tend to switch over to Harleys and, yes, BMWs.

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Agreed. When I was young and poor, two traits which tend to travel together, most of my friends either bought used Japanese mid-range bikes, dirt bikes (mostly Japanese) and a smattering of used British bikes. When they got jobs, presuming they hadn't gotten married, they went for larger, newer bikes.

bobh41 said:

what is it about motorcycling that is so compelling for most of us? My take on it is the proprioceptive sense that comes into play on a motorcycle is the driver. There are few sports or activities that can match the acceleration, g-forces and other sensory factors of motorcycling. Downhill skiing may be one, gymnastics, perhaps, piloting an F-18 for sure.

All the "reasons" posited here for riding sound good, and there may be some validity for many of them, but I believe if you're honest you'll find that physiology holds the key for all of us.

Considering the popularity of roller coasters for young people (mostly) I do wonder why they haven't caught on to motorcycling in greater numbers.

A possible solution to the selling of motorcycles: Hire Nate Kern, and others like him, to take people double-up around a race track on his S1000 RR.
One of the things that would tend to turn me off motorcycling as a social activity would be to check out the agenda on so many motorcycle club meetings: They either start or end (or both) at a local watering hole.

As a social activity it would seem most attractive to set up club meetings as tech events and make it an open invitation to, especially young non-bikers, to come and learn. It seems as rational as sitting in a beer garden to advance the sport.

Caveat: Dr. orders - I can drink only at Thanksgiving and New Years.

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I'd have to disagree with that idea, the last thing we should be doing is selling the idea of Speed even more than it is already. The reason sports bike are so popular amoung the young is the whole speed factor, but without proper training and experiance that just leads to (potiential) disaster. Rather I think we need to turn the focus to the same things that make bikes popular in Europe, including more smaller displacement machines along the lines of the Honda NT700 and keep the price reasonable (under 6-7K).

RM

Greenwald said:

I'm enjoying this spirited discussion. It's remained civil, interesting and informative.

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Yeah; what the hell's the matter with us?

I'm thinkin' not enough Airhead input ...