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Harley-Davidson's aging biker problem

Just got my new issue of Motorcylist magazine today. There is a short story about
Harley-Davidson and why they are in trouble. H-D paid $108 million back in 2008
to buy MV Agusta. MV Agusta is now back in the hands of the same people who
sold it to H-D. Seems that H-D was so interested in getting out from ownership that
they not only gave back the company, but also put $25 million into an escrow
account to help MV restart operations again.
 
I've seen our future!

No, what you've seen is a bunch of Europeans doing what they have always done. I was stationed in Switzerland in the late fifties and toured on my free time. In Italy, Germany and France there was no such thing as a family outing in a cage. People didn't even eat in restaurants, they brought lunch from home and sat in the plaza and ate. Typical parsimonious bunch of Euro-Peons.
 
No, what you've seen is a bunch of Europeans doing what they have always done. I was stationed in Switzerland in the late fifties and toured on my free time. In Italy, Germany and France there was no such thing as a family outing in a cage. People didn't even eat in restaurants, they brought lunch from home and sat in the plaza and ate. Typical parsimonious bunch of Euro-Peons.

I am genuinely confused... i think you are talking bad about Europeans... but not sure...

So are you saying they are peons for not being an absolute participant in consumer culture and trying to be conservative and save money and support themselves by not spending on something they can provide from home?

or are they not being liberal enough to go out in public to spend needlessly?

I ask, because I'm not sure if "parsimonious" is a affirmation of conservative ideals or a condemnation of liberal sensibilities...???


Really, not trying to get political but what are you really trying to say...???
 
I just returned from Paris France where approximately 25% of the vehicles I saw were scooters or motorcycles. Parking cars is difficult (narrow streets) and congestion is great. Beemers abound, all sizes, all varieties. There is M/C specific parking and it is allowed to park a bike on the sidewalk. Why? Gas is 1.79 euros A LITER!!!! That's around 9.80 a gallon!!!! So don't think a bike can't or won't be used to commute. I've seen our future!


While our prices are not that bad (yet), I commute to my courthouses on a mostly daily basis and park under some nice big oak trees right outside the front door of most of them, the the chagrin of my fellow attorneys who have to fight for parking several blocks away from the courthouse ! :p

When we had over $5 per gallon diesel, I stopped driving my old truck (17mpg) and switched exclusively to the R1200R and its 50 mpg, and continued to do business without $500 per month gas bills.:clap That is real saving and not fictitious accounting. An added benefit was the simple pleasure of riding my bike ! When the weather is bad, or I have need to haul stuff, my X5 diesel gets around 30mpg in luxury !

:bikes
 
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When the price of gas went over $4.00/gallon in 2008 there was a huge bump in sales of small motorcycles and scooters here in New Hampshire. I talked to several dealers that were selling scooters, and they were flying out the doors. You couldn't get a 250cc motorcycle of any brand new at any dealership in this area. That time it was transient, as the price of gas went back down.

I do firmly believe that the price of fuel in the USA is bound to rise again, and go to heights well beyond what it ever has before. We aren't producing or refining enough of our own to be be even close to independent, and former third world countries are beginning to compete with us for what is, ultimately, a limited resource. I think the party's going to be over sooner than later. When that happens, any motorcycle will be an attractive alternative, and especially the smaller ones.

As I see it unfolding, the "biker" culture will continue to exist, but there will be a huge influx of new riders who will be primarily concerned with the economics, not the image. As we continue our downward slide economically, young people and couples buying small bikes will overwhelm the "bikers" in sheer numbers. Legislators will finally be forced to accommodate us with respect to road design, lane splitting, parking, and etc. I see all this as a good thing.

Chrystal ball off.
 
The age issue

Hello,

When I dropped-off and picked-up my 1999 R11RS from its last service, I was a bit saddened by the demographics of the customers in the shop. As background, I'm 50 and bought my first Beemer when I was 25. During my recent visit to the dealership, I was a definite youngster amongst the customers and decidedly less farkle endowed. For the most part, the typical customer appeared to a be a white-collar or military/police retiree accessorizing their toy or trading up to a bigger/better toy. There was minimal diversity in the customers and the main topic of discussion was knee pain.

All in all, it was pretty boring and I spent most of my time looking at the retro Triumph models that the dealership also sells. The Thruxton model is pretty cute and affordable.

Have fun
 
I'm not so sure anyone knows what the future holds. Ageing bikers on all types of bikes, etc. are a common site nowadays. We even see young bikers on aging brands.

I'm not even so sure the "Mainstreamers" have an idea. I read the November '10 issue of Consumer Reports today and on page 63 found, what I believe to be a first, a section on "Scooters." The Honda SH150i was tested and rated against an Aprilia Scarabeo 200. Albeit I'm a sucker for two wheels, after reading the article, I'd park either one in my garage.

I'm very pleased to say that Consumer Reports recommended all those interested should go to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation web site, which they gave, and take a course from a qualified professional instructor.

Everything seems to be drifting on the wind. What's next?

Whatever it is, I can't wait to find out.

Easy :german
 
...There was minimal diversity in the customers and the main topic of discussion was knee pain.
...

You should see the average HOG meeting at a Harley dealership. Kinda makes all of us look really young.:bolt
 
So,....maybe the older Harley riders,......and the cruiser bikes with very low seats ands minimal suspensions (to get those low seats),......are really to suit a larger portion of the riding populace with bad hips, shot knees, and big bellies, who simply can't lift a leg high enough to get it over a BMW saddle?

You ever seen someone with limited hip articulation, and a beer gut, try to get a leg over the seat of any current BMW? Its kinda of a stretch to put it mildly.

A lot of those HDs have the lowest seat heights in motorcycling, and not much anything at the back of the bike higher than the seat (except for tail trunks).
 
So,....maybe the older Harley riders,......and the cruiser bikes with very low seats ands minimal suspensions (to get those low seats),......are really to suit a larger portion of the riding populace with bad hips, shot knees, and big bellies, who simply can't lift a leg high enough to get it over a BMW saddle?

You ever seen someone with limited hip articulation, and a beer gut, try to get a leg over the seat of any current BMW? Its kinda of a stretch to put it mildly.

A lot of those HDs have the lowest seat heights in motorcycling, and not much anything at the back of the bike higher than the seat (except for tail trunks).

I think that your statement is just too much of a generalization. I've seen both HD and Beemer riders that seem both fit as well as a good number on both brands that could benefit from a change of dietary habits and physical regimes.
 
While our taxes are not that bad (yet), I commute to my courthouses on a mostly daily basis and park under some nice big oak trees right outside the front door of most of them, the the chagrin of my fellow attorneys who have to fight for parking several blocks away from the courthouse !

fixed. :D
 
You should see the average HOG meeting at a Harley dealership. Kinda makes all of us look really young.:bolt

No doubt. Harleys cost an incredible amount. In fact, when people asked "what does a bike like that cost?", I used to answer the question in relative terms...."3/4 the price of a Harley". However, that doesn't seem to be case anymore.

In my opinion, that's why the younger folks aren't in the dealerships.........they can't afford $20,000 for a motorcycle and $6~800 for an 8K service. When I was 26, I bought a new K75c (second most powerful BMW model that year) for 11.6% of my young engineer's salary. That was living "large" at that time. However, I had a job, a pension and relatively free health insurance. Today, a 26 year old, might have a job, won't have a pension and will pay a significant amount towards his health care (if he/she has it). In short, today's 26 year old would be "a few bricks shy", if he/she spent the type of money that BMW is asking for their bikes.

The soap box is now available for the next pontificating loon
 
No doubt. Harleys cost an incredible amount. In fact, when people asked "what does a bike like that cost?", I used to answer the question in relative terms...."3/4 the price of a Harley". However, that doesn't seem to be case anymore.

In my opinion, that's why the younger folks aren't in the dealerships.........they can't afford $20,000 for a motorcycle and $6~800 for an 8K service. When I was 26, I bought a new K75c (second most powerful BMW model that year) for 11.6% of my young engineer's salary. That was living "large" at that time. However, I had a job, a pension and relatively free health insurance. Today, a 26 year old, might have a job, won't have a pension and will pay a significant amount towards his health care (if he/she has it). In short, today's 26 year old would be "a few bricks shy", if he/she spent the type of money that BMW is asking for their bikes.

The soap box is now available for the next pontificating loon

You may be off the soap box now, but your post was spot on and a tough act to follow.

As much as we like to sugarcoat our BMW loyalty with words like "extreme value," and "highly engineered," and "state of the art," and "legendary longevity," they are expensive machines to buy, very expensive machines to maintain, and ultra-expensive machines to repair.

No wonder someone these days in their mid-twenties doesn't set foot inside a BMW dealership. Unless Munich calms down the 'over-engineering' mantra and holds the line on pricing, they will always be bikes for people with significant discretionary income - and beware - that's a shrinking demographic. :deal
 
As much as we like to sugarcoat our BMW loyalty with words like "extreme value," and "highly engineered," and "state of the art," and "legendary longevity," they are expensive machines to buy, very expensive machines to maintain, and ultra-expensive machines to repair.

not all BMWs are expensive, especially used ones, mostly airheads and F/G bikes although there are some excellent deals on low mileage oilheads. it does help if one is interested in doing their own maintenance.

you are right, though, about all the ??ber techno-wonders. the cost of ownership on those things make me wince.

i don't think BMW will ever offer something ultra-cheap, or that they'll ever do a certified used bike program. it really isn't part of their brand. but we (the MOA) have a major opportunity to bring younger riders into the fold by working with local dealers on a used bike program.

i'm doing my part, here's my boy on my HP2e.... (he currently rides orange)

862973817_Gb63n-L.jpg


ian
 
You may be off the soap box now, but your post was spot on and a tough act to follow.

As much as we like to sugarcoat our BMW loyalty with words like "extreme value," and "highly engineered," and "state of the art," and "legendary longevity," they are expensive machines to buy, very expensive machines to maintain, and ultra-expensive machines to repair.

No wonder someone these days in their mid-twenties doesn't set foot inside a BMW dealership. Unless Munich calms down the 'over-engineering' mantra and holds the line on pricing, they will always be bikes for people with significant discretionary income - and beware - that's a shrinking demographic. :deal

I have to laugh at the "expense" of riding motorcycles of any brand. I come from flying Beechcraft planes of all kinds, and sailboating. My friends, motorcycles are CHEAP in comparison !!! :clap

Although I do take pause at HD asking 35K for an Ultraclassic CVO something or other :scratch
 
You may be off the soap box now, but your post was spot on and a tough act to follow.

As much as we like to sugarcoat our BMW loyalty with words like "extreme value," and "highly engineered," and "state of the art," and "legendary longevity," they are expensive machines to buy, very expensive machines to maintain, and ultra-expensive machines to repair.

No wonder someone these days in their mid-twenties doesn't set foot inside a BMW dealership. Unless Munich calms down the 'over-engineering' mantra and holds the line on pricing, they will always be bikes for people with significant discretionary income - and beware - that's a shrinking demographic. :deal

While I feel your pain and frustration I have troubles sharing your perspective.

BMW will never build a cheap bike in any class it is in. That is not part of the clearly stated corporate strategy. They will not compete in all market segments, will not seek to dominate any market segment rather seek to compete in selected market segments and will price their products at roughly the 75% point or so of the segment price range.

Visian pointed to the F/G bikes as relatively inexpensive bikes. Add the S1000RR to the list. It is priced within a few hundred dollars of the Japanese bikes in a class of bikes that is aimed at the young rider buying their second bike. The numbers in that market are what have me concerned not the price an quality of our bike versions of Grande Tourisimo cars.

In 2007 BMW pegged the world demand for superbikes at 125,000 units per year. In a 2009 Motorcyclist article covering the introduction of the S1000RR they pegged the world demand at 85,000 units per year and admitted that number could likely drop further. The RR has been a huge success in the showroom for BMW. The disconcerting thing about this success is two fold.
1. It did not come as a result of expanding the customer base rather it cannibalized existing superbike buyers.
2. More concerning to me is the superbike buyer is normally buy their second or third bike, as I pointed out previously. They did not buy their first bike so they were not there to buy a superbike as their second or third bike.

Visian was on the mark again when he pointed out our opportunities to bring riders into the fold no matter the brand. Instead of railing on BMW and H-D cost and product line shouldnÔÇÖt we look at what we can do as individuals, as an association and with the foundation to bring people into riding? Call it enlightened self interest. BMW is a destination brand dependent on people getting to the point they want and are ready to ride one; which makes the BMW MOA a destination club. If we are going to survive and provide the growing list of services the membership keeps asking for how do we nurture our customer base?
 
BMW is a destination brand dependent on people getting to the point they want and are ready to ride one; which makes the BMW MOA a destination club. If we are going to survive and provide the growing list of services the membership keeps asking for how do we nurture our customer base?

Mika,

The marketing talk is great and I understand the MBA perspective on the issue. However, looking at the demographics and speaking from my personal experience, the current BMW offerings are aimed at a market segment (moderately affluent retirees and above) that may not exist in the future.

By the way, I wasn't asking for or expecting cheap. Just something affordable by someone in their 20's or 30's with a good job. As a case in point, BMW has maintained the cost of their entry level 3-series cars in the low 30's for nearly 2 decades.

Relative to the term destination brand, I would assume that some other folks are also insulted by the concept that some mass produced product is a destination for their life. I've only bought BMW's because they meet my expectations of performance and reliability. I don't need bling to validate myself.

Have a good one
 
Mika,

The marketing talk is great and I understand the MBA perspective on the issue. However, looking at the demographics and speaking from my personal experience, the current BMW offerings are aimed at a market segment (moderately affluent retirees and above) that may not exist in the future.

By the way, I wasn't asking for or expecting cheap. Just something affordable by someone in their 20's or 30's with a good job. As a case in point, BMW has maintained the cost of their entry level 3-series cars in the low 30's for nearly 2 decades.

Relative to the term destination brand, I would assume that some other folks are also insulted by the concept that some mass produced product is a destination for their life. I've only bought BMW's because they meet my expectations of performance and reliability. I don't need bling to validate myself.

Have a good one


I suspect face to face over coffee we could easily come to a better understanding of my post than it seems to have left with you at this point.

I have to agree with much about what you say about the current offerings form BMW. They do seem aimed at an affluent market segment that may not exist in the same way in the future though the description of that group as retirees and above might not lead to agreement. That description is very valid in the US market perhaps but not necessarily consistent on the world stage.

As to cost value concepts I am with you in that area also. The entry level counterpart to the 3 Series BMW is the Motorrad lineup is the Roadster. In the NA market it has not sold well in recent years with more people opting for other models. I love mine. I did not need the bling of other models in the line up to meet my needs or desires in a motorcycle. I have read little and posted less about the new K1600 sixes because they do absolutely nothing for me. YMMV and BMW sees a market for them but I am not part of it. The lack of sales for the Roadster in the NA market have put pricing pressure on it but in this and other markets it remains a competitive 3 Series type entry bike. The counterpart is there people just have not bought it in the same kind of numbers they have the 3 Series car.

If you feel insulted by the idea of BMW being a destination brand it is because you are misinterpreting the terms meaning in this use. You are confusing it with lifestyle marketing which it has nothing to do with.

Stepping back from motorcycles for a moment lets look at your description of the entry level 3 Series car buyer. Clearly it is not a first time car buyer but someone who has owned and driven other cars before purchasing their first BMW. The same holds true for the Motorcycle Segment of BMW. The majority of first time buyers of BMWs have owned and ridden a variety of bikes prior to buying that first BMW; new or used. This goes a long way to explaining why the average age of our membership is roughly seven years older than the average age of motorcyclists in general and has held that relative separation for years. Go to the new member section of the forum and this is born out time and time again as new members describe themselves.

All of this was intended to set aside rants about BMW H-D etc and their products and focus on a question that really is at the heart of the OP and a long time interest of mine. Why does it appear that young people are choosing not to become riders, and what impacts does that have on various things. In simple terms is the motorcycle becoming irrelevant?

I donÔÇÖt own stock in any transportation companies so I am just fine with the periodic thinning of the herd that motorcycles seem to go through. I like riding alone so I donÔÇÖt have a need to convert everyone between the ages of 16 and 30 into licensed riders. I will be perfectly happy to see ridership stay at a herd sustainable level and nothing more.

Having a great day hope you are too.
 
However, looking at the demographics and speaking from my personal experience, the current BMW offerings are aimed at a market segment (moderately affluent retirees and above) that may not exist in the future.

I think BMW is going for the affluent retirees and above with their upper end products but the S1000RR and the F & G bikes are aimed for a younger but successful customer. BMW should not go downmarket in an attempt to sell more bikes. Many people want a BMW because it is different and rare. Like their cars, the bikes are a goal and a it is a special achievement when you can afford to move up to one. I wish people would quit referring to my bikes as the "Cadillac" of motorcycles.

I think the high end of the motorcycle market is more stable than the lower end due to the financial struggles of entry level customers.
 
I bought my first RT long before I thought of retiring. I've always been attracted to the marque but just never stepped up to the plate and swung at it. Rode Suzukis from '74 to '04 all liter bikes or better except for a couple of water buffaloes and one RE-5 Rotary. Bought a new '04 RT in '04 and sold two Suzukis. Have had a long and pleasant history with semi exotic automobiles most of my life all with SAABs going back to the 850 Monte Carlo and the trans Africa rally. Now that BMW will be making engines for the new SAABs I just might have to buy another one.
 
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