Final Drive failure 2008 R1200RT

deilenberger said:

I really don't understand the tendency of owners to bemoan BMWs reliability and their eventual fate as a failed manufacturer (BMW bike sales were UP 24% the last 6 months in a declining market), who still ride them. If they are that bad and make someone that unhappy - why not go buy something else? Be happy! Leaves me scratching my head sometimes.. but I guess it's human nature.

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I completely agree Don. Having a couple miles under my belt - on a couple BMW's - I have had a problem or two - and anyone that would claim to have an equal number of miles [not many can] that doesn't understand those few challenges were inevitable in any mechanical device or machine - just isn't being realistic. But it's not just BMW's.

It boggles the mind when I read or hear someone worried about - for example the problem in this post - a failure happening on their bike simply because of another's experience. The FD issue IS a potential failure condition on some machines. Unfortunately, the internet inflates the actual number of failures through repetition of posts. Should you have a backup plan in case of failure - of course, not any different than getting in a car of hop-scotching off on the miles we do on bikes. However, if I had the level of concern for someone else's experience happening to me when I rode off, that I see here - I'd never leave the house.

Mechanical/Electrical things fail. It's part of life. If you're afraid or concerned about the sky falling - don't leave the safety of the house. It's just plain nuts to me.

SteveAikens said:

I completely agree Don. Having a couple miles under my belt - on a couple BMW's - I have had a problem or two - and anyone that would claim to have an equal number of miles [not many can] that doesn't understand those few challenges were inevitable in any mechanical device or machine - just isn't being realistic. But it's not just BMW's.

It boggles the mind when I read or hear someone worried about - for example the problem in this post - a failure happening on their bike simply because of another's experience. The FD issue IS a potential failure condition on some machines. Unfortunately, the internet inflates the actual number of failures through repetition of posts. Should you have a backup plan in case of failure - of course, not any different than getting in a car of hop-scotching off on the miles we do on bikes. However, if I had the level of concern for someone else's experience happening to me when I rode off, that I see here - I'd never leave the house.

Mechanical/Electrical things fail. It's part of life. If you're afraid or concerned about the sky falling - don't leave the safety of the house. It's just plain nuts to me.

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So absolutely true.
Come on guys get a grip. FD MAY be a problem on a small number of machines. Doesn't translate to doomsday or a major lack of faith in a brand surely. Over reaction. Not going on a trip because a blog highlighted a possibility is just plain silly.
Ride the bike, it breaks , fix it.
regards
Paul

In the early 80's BMW played heavily on the fact that many of it's owners rode their machines for hundreds of thousands of miles. At one time BMW's were considered the ultimate touring (read traveling) machine. In my heart they still are.

I find it funny that my "lower end of the spectrum" 2010 Sentra has proven to have better reliability then both my R1200RT (EWS - tow) and R80RT (broken gearbox - tow) in the first 20k of their respective lives. And the car already has one Canadian winter (parked outside) under it's belt.

I agree that not all machines will be affected by said problem(s). However the failures have been specific to certain areas of the machine. Why then, should I worry about my fuel pump or instrument panel when this generation of machines is known for FD issues. I've accepted that fact and if it were to happen it's OK. It's just the cost of doing business. A couple of days and 2-3k and I'm back on the road. I got over it a long time ago (even before I purchased the bike in Feb '08).

As for people "riding them" take a look at the for sale ads (MOA, Trader and others) and take a look at how much riding they have on them. Not very much.

Guess I'm ranting too much on a Saturday morning. Time to ride.

deilenberger said:

Was there a charge on the bill for the oil? Sometimes that's a dead giveaway.

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Yes, and a labor charge. The material charge was for 200ml of FD fluid. However, the service manager told me that the service dept. doesn't add the parts and material items to the bill: the parts department does that, because they automatically know what's needed and it's faster that way.

I'm trying to get one of the two dealers around here to show me a sample of what drains out the next time they do a final drive fluid change at the 600 mile service. Once I see that, I will know for sure whether or not I was shortchanged, with possible damage done.

I may or may not have done the first fluid change, but I did the second one for sure either way, and the third. When I changed the fluid for the second time, the red was darker than new stuff, indicating some residual dark material from whatever BMW puts in there at the factory. But it wasn't brownish black like when I did it the first time.

So I really want to see a sample of what comes out of the drive of a similar bike at the 600 mile mark. Then I'll know for absolute certain one way or the other.

pch123 said:

So absolutely true.
Come on guys get a grip. FD MAY be a problem on a small number of machines. Doesn't translate to doomsday or a major lack of faith in a brand surely. Over reaction. Not going on a trip because a blog highlighted a possibility is just plain silly.
Ride the bike, it breaks , fix it.
regards
Paul

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I think it's interesting how if someone express a concern about BMW's willingness to address an expensive, major mechanical component that has a statistically high failure rate (1% would be really large for a manufactured component), it's an over reaction. Is it the people expressing the concern that are over reacting or the people that keep saying "it is no problem, it is no problem, dammit it can't be a problem".

I don't recall anyone saying anything about not taking a trip or not riding because of the problem. BMW's stated 1% failure rate is a really significant defect rate for an assembly like a final drive when it's occurring at way less than the expected life of the assembly.

The concern isn't taking the bike on a trip. The concern is showing up at a BMW dealer with a 3 year old + 1 day or 36,001 mile bike with a component that is known to have issues and not have BMW have a formal policy to address it.

Since people seem to be taking the "1%" number as an absolute (out of every 100 bikes 1 rear drive will fail..) let me clarify - with emphasis - what was said was "LESS then 1%".. How much less? Dunno.. but basing a point on inaccurately quoted numbers doesn't make much of a point IMHO.

Problems are few and far between, until your ox is gored. Fortunately, my '06 seems to be before the ignition ring problems and my final drive is tight as a tick.

My '04 RT was the most trouble free bike I've ever owned. 30,000 wonderful happy miles of smiles.

MPMARTY said:

tight as a tick.

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IS that a torque specification?

I tried to look it up and......

SteveAikens said:

IS that a torque specification?

I tried to look it up and......

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Yup! Tight as a tick: Measured radial and axial runout = 0.000 +0 -0.001

deilenberger said:

Since people seem to be taking the "1%" number as an absolute (out of every 100 bikes 1 rear drive will fail..) let me clarify - with emphasis - what was said was "LESS then 1%".. How much less? Dunno.. but basing a point on inaccurately quoted numbers doesn't make much of a point IMHO.

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Probably just a product of my own past experience with manufacturers, but if a manufacturer has a failure rate of less than 1 in 10,000, they would never say "Less than 1%". They'd say less than 1 in 10,000 or Less than .01%. Even if the failure rate was 1 in 201, they'd never say "Less than 1%". They'd say "Less than .5%" to make the failure rate seem as low as possible.

Since BMW isn't releasing the numbers, we'll probably never know the actuals, but if the head guy said "Less than 1%", it's probably not too far from 1% or he would have said "Less than .75%" or "Less than .5%" to put it in the best light possible.

alzyck said:

Since BMW isn't releasing the numbers, we'll probably never know the actuals, but if the head guy said "Less than 1%", it's probably not too far from 1% or he would have said "Less than .75%" or "Less than .5%" to put it in the best light possible.

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This really brings to mind discussions of angels dancing on the heat of a pin..

FWIW - (BMW Content) - did my 36k rear-drive fluid change today (at 37.5k, last was about 24k). What came out (clean baking tin again) looked like what was going in - color and consistancy. Got to gild some lilies while I had things apart (aka needless cleaning of parts no one will ever see.) Driveshaft splines still had plenty of grease on them and looked just fine.

I don't know why people focus so much on the final drive issue, or how big it really is. Maybe it's because we have come to expect more from BMW - virtual perfection. That's the image they try to project. Maybe it always was an illusion. Maybe not.

Do the failure percentages really matter? What matters a lot more is that potential buyers and present owners worry about it. The fact that we are having this conversation, everywhere, over and over, in and of itself is proof that BMW could have handled this and other situations better. Better for us, and ultimately better for them. In the motorcycle world, perception is the name of the game. BMW has, in my view, not done very much to protect its most valuable asset - how its product is viewed by its present and potential customer base.

I know any machine can fail. But when I ride my little GZ250 around, I don't worry about whether or not the chain is going to break. Sure, chains break. But I don't think about it. So why do I think about BMW's final drive, and the chance that it could fail? Because someone made an issue of it, and BMW didn't do anything very effective to reassure anyone, or put it in perspective, or even try very hard to look like they were on it. Not smart.

dhgeyer said:

I don't know why people focus so much on the final drive issue, or how big it really is. Maybe it's because we have come to expect more from BMW - virtual perfection. That's the image they try to project. Maybe it always was an illusion. Maybe not.

Do the failure percentages really matter? What matters a lot more is that potential buyers and present owners worry about it. The fact that we are having this conversation, everywhere, over and over, in and of itself is proof that BMW could have handled this and other situations better. Better for us, and ultimately better for them. In the motorcycle world, perception is the name of the game. BMW has, in my view, not done very much to protect its most valuable asset - how its product is viewed by its present and potential customer base.

I know any machine can fail. But when I ride my little GZ250 around, I don't worry about whether or not the chain is going to break. Sure, chains break. But I don't think about it. So why do I think about BMW's final drive, and the chance that it could fail? Because someone made an issue of it, and BMW didn't do anything very effective to reassure anyone, or put it in perspective, or even try very hard to look like they were on it. Not smart.

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Soooo True!

I'd say that 7 out of every 10 riders that take the time to chat with me about my R1200RT eventually ask about "that driveshaft issue." They bring it up.

It's only natural we worry more about what we cannot see - a chain or belt will give us some advance warning (worn sprocket teeth or links / belt age) as to the need for replacement. Take care of such issues prior to a big ride (and for a lot less $$$) and you're off to see the wizard - worry free.

Not so with the BMW FD. By the time I can manipulate the play in my rear wheel too much, damage is done - trip canceled - get the wallet out.

As you pointed out so well, perception is reality.

I don't lose sleep over potential FD failure - but only by keeping up the negative pressure on BMW will something positive ever happen.

I've watched the Long Way Round & Down many times (long winters here in Alberta) & have wondered how BMW would have responded to a FD failure in Africa. That the FDs survived the abuse those bikes were subjected to leads me to surmise(repeat, just surmising) perhaps someone on the assembly line was still feeling the effects of too much fun on the weekend. No I'm not being an apologist or blind, just my .02 and I know I'd feel much differently if the FD in my beloved beemer crapped out.

The FD debate seems way different to me than the other "choice" debates that go on here like oil or tire beads.

The thing that surprises me about the FD debate is that for an "Owners" organization, the number of people, including some with official positions in the organization, that would rather defend BMW when it clearly has a problem over the "owners" the organization is supposed to represent that either have/have had the problem or have the potential to have the problem.

Seems kind of backwards. I must have missed something.

HeiniK said:

For the record, the bike has 35,000 km on it and the final drive oil has been changed 3 times by BMW authorized services, the last time sonme 5,000 km ago.

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Why would a bike with 35,000 KM have gone through 3 FD repairs? Is there any type of misalignment that could cause bad loading on the FD unit?

I'd be mad enough with one FD failure in 35,000 KM but three......I don't even want to say.

Other than changing the FD fluid are there any other preventative maintenance/inspection items that we can do to identify a developing problem or potential failure? Has anybody ever sent a sample off to Blackstone for analysis?

Interesting to read and see all this information and how BMW addresses the FD problem. I have 5 BMW's in under my roof starting with a bullit proof 77 R75/7, 2001 R1100R, 2005 R1200ST , 2009 K1200GT ( just purchased as a leftover) and a 2001 K1200LT which I love but has fallen into that 1% FD failure catagory which to me equals 100% ( because it happened to me) Yes I have almost 80K on the bike and bought it used. I am not a believer in our local BMW shops service as I had to fix most of the issues they created last time I had them service the bike So to have them do the FD was not going to happen. The drive is repaired and will be installed as soon as it cools down enough to work on the bike. I have done enough maintenance, repairs and modifications ( weepholes for leaking fluids) where it remindes me of all the old english cars I use to collect.

I am in the market for a new ride and am would love a new LT or maybe a GT or RT but my confidence in the brand has taken a real hit. When I consider I am making an investment into a bike the same as a good quality car I would expect to get at least the same reliability. BMW has always meant quality and reliability to me, I have owned there cars, obviously there bikes. My wife worked for NA and my son just purchased a mini which is made by BMW. I won't ride a HD and am not a fan of a goldwing although it is currently a consideration.

Collecting old cars you always expect to have issues and get stranded at times but its not someting that will usually get you hurt. If the drive had failed at a different time it could have caused serious injury to myself and or passanger but I guess we would have fallen to that less than 1% and that would have been ok.

I really do love my LT

Al Young
Mooresville, NC

Here's an example of what BMW does to reassure all us Paralever bike owners. This quote is from the BMW Motorrad USA website, specifically the blurb touting the F 650 GS

"With a double-sided swing arm and chain drive, it's reliable."

Which implies that..........

alzyck said:

The FD debate seems way different to me than the other "choice" debates that go on here like oil or tire beads.

The thing that surprises me about the FD debate is that for an "Owners" organization, the number of people, including some with official positions in the organization, that would rather defend BMW when it clearly has a problem over the "owners" the organization is supposed to represent that either have/have had the problem or have the potential to have the problem.

Seems kind of backwards. I must have missed something.

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You've nailed it on the head! Well said.

for an "Owners" organization, the number of people, including some with official positions in the organization, that would rather defend BMW when it clearly has a problem over the "owners" the organization is supposed to represent that either have/have had the problem or have the potential to have the problem.
YOU HAV'NT MISSED A THANG......................................