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Final Drive failure 2008 R1200RT

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I think Kevin Greenwald discussed this on a different final drive thread a while back (sorry it it wasn't you Kevin), but when the BMW dude just "implies" no one is going to have to pay for a failed final drive, it doesn't give an owner much of a warm fuzzy feeling about their investment in a high end bike. It's not a show stopper, but it's not really great either. Wouldn't it give you a lot more confidence if BMW had a formal, written policy that said they'd cover final drive failures on maintained drives for something like 5 years and 100,000 miles rather than having it be something that gets casually discussed at a rally and then passed on through web forums?

He actually asked the audience if anyone there had paid for a rear-drive repair. No one replied in the positive. Despite there being people who were rather obviously upset by the failures.

Would it give me more "confidence"? Perhaps - but with as low a failure rate as they claim (and they should have the actual numbers), I'm not lacking confidence in the bike now (leaving on the 19th for a 3,000 mile ride in the wilds of Canada..)
 
THen It would actually mean something.. I am a 4% ... er oops we have heard its really 1% bikes (not final drives?).. all the changes at service including the 600 mile service and it still went belly up at 12K? (04 RT)
This is sorta puzzling to me - since the 600 mile rear drive oil change was implimented with the 2007 model year.

Your '04 RT (oilhead I believe?) was the old style rear drive which has an entirely different failure mode from the '05 and on Hexhead bikes. It may have gotten an oil change as part of the 600 mile service - but given the redesign done for hexheads - the failure modes are quite a bit different and really not comparable except they're both final drives.

We're talking apples and oranges here.
 
I know there are people who have paid to replace or repair these FDs.

If you have an out-of-warranty bike with a FD problem, and no one had told you about an extended warranty on the FD (no one has), and BMW won't tell you it's a warranty repair (they won't), and the dealers won't tell you that they can get it covered (they won't), are you really going to go into a dealer and gamble on paying $2500 for a new FD, or even just $200 for labor to tell you what you already knew? Most people will just buy a used one or have it fixed somewhere else.
 
I think Kevin Greenwald discussed this on a different final drive thread a while back (sorry it it wasn't you Kevin), but when the BMW dude just "implies" no one is going to have to pay for a failed final drive, it doesn't give an owner much of a warm fuzzy feeling about their investment in a high end bike. It's not a show stopper, but it's not really great either. Wouldn't it give you a lot more confidence if BMW had a formal, written policy that said they'd cover final drive failures on maintained drives for something like 5 years and 100,000 miles rather than having it be something that gets casually discussed at a rally and then passed on through web forums?

Hey Dude - get low and stay low.

Talking like that with 'out-of-the-box' innovative thinking similar to what's in your post is going to get a couple of guys in black trenchcoats and German accents (naturally they pulled up in a black, 700-series BMW) to beat the crap out of you some night after dark!

As for corporate 'promises,' we had a saying in law enforcement: "If it's not written down, it was never said." :banghead
 
He actually asked the audience if anyone there had paid for a rear-drive repair. No one replied in the positive. Despite there being people who were rather obviously upset by the failures.

Would it give me more "confidence"? Perhaps - but with as low a failure rate as they claim (and they should have the actual numbers), I'm not lacking confidence in the bike now (leaving on the 19th for a 3,000 mile ride in the wilds of Canada..)

I did? :scratch
 
Would it give me more "confidence"? Perhaps - but with as low a failure rate as they claim (and they should have the actual numbers), I'm not lacking confidence in the bike now (leaving on the 19th for a 3,000 mile ride in the wilds of Canada..)

It's not about confidence in the bike. I'm in the middle of long trip right now and it's only a 1% problem, right.

It's about confidence in BMW as an organization that if I end up being a 1%'er, they will take care of me without having to go through the argument of "Hey, Don Eilenberger says at the RA rally, the BMW NA head dude said..."
 
It seems clear that failure rates are down on newer bikes but any failure short of the engine life is a sign of design and/or manufacture that need improvement. If the true number is 1%, I agree with the impracticality of recall replacement but that number also makes it absolutely clear it is not a trivial problem. Car diffs last the life a vehicle with no issues and there is no reason that a BMW motorcycle should be any different - other brands either don't have the problem or it goes unreported.

One thing is for certain - if the planned 6 cyl bike (with its extra torque) kills a few FDs early on, its potential sales will be seriously damaged. So I hope its FD has been corrected and that any published review of the bike will do a careful engineering comparison of its FD and existing BMW FDs. Although I'm very unlikely to buy a 6 cyl bike because I'm a big fan of engine systems simplicity, I'd like to see it become a big success for BMW. There aren't any other recent 6's or even any other recent bikes in the class. Both the LT and the Goldwing are pretty dated.

Obvious points to examine include bearing sizes and type, seals and vented or not, gear ratios and physical gear dimensions, methods of preventing shock loads at the FD, etc. BMW has made some uncommon choices for the rear suspension
so I wonder how their choices in FD design differ from brands where this issue is not reported. Don't happen to have my old Honda around for a direct comparison. I find myself wondering whether gear choices to reduce jacking or the potentially banging engagements created by the BMW dry clutch and shift mechanism (by those who use it badly, compared to a more forgiving wet clutch) are contributing to the remaining failures. I own a track car that puts more than double its original power through a stock parts tranny and deliberately use a soft clutch for driveline protection- seen too many similar broken when fitted with more abrupt engagement types.

For my own 08 RT (that has been without problems of any of the well know types, so far), I don't let low probability failures influence my choices this but I will be seriously pissed if, for example, if it were to crap out on me when I'm at the RA rally at the end of this month, where I plan to take advantage of a full week of low cost camping/riding in New England. The fact that I know how to get the repair covered is of less interest to me than reliability that starts with uncompromised design /manufacture.
 
Take one of these BMW final drive discussions and substitute Toyota for everyplace you see BMW. Toyota has said the same thing, a small number had failures, etc etc.

Then a crash occurred, lives were lost, and the attitude was changed for them. If this was a car and the rear end failed at this rate, wheels were loose from the flange cracking, bearings failing, there would be a recall and pronto.

BMW needs to think beyond today about this. I know I would rather have another 5 or even 10 lbs of metal, although not required, to have increased bearing size and easier manufacture and repair. I bet 1 pound of extra weight would do it though.

Look at the loss of reputation BMW has suffered because of this problem. This has been ongoing for over 15 years and 2 final drive iterations now. Heads should be rolling. I know I have spent time and money on my first gen final drive for this issue that should never have persisted until 2002.

Rod
 
read that an get your eyes opened --to the truth------------ www.bmwfinaldrive.com/
Interesting website. In looking at the data quickly - it appears there were 6 failures of Hexhead/EVO rear-drives reported to the website in 2010.

That's 1 per month roughly. Assuming there are others which weren't reported to Jim's website.

Not great - but bet still less then 1% of the drives in use for hexhead bikes.
 
for the record

For the record, the bike has 35,000 km on it and the final drive oil has been changed 3 times by BMW authorized services, the last time sonme 5,000 km ago.
Someone also screwed up the parts delivery and it will take more than 3 days for the parts to be delivered. The Canadians blame the Yanks but regardless of the blame, the parts will not get to the dealer for at least 10 days after the bike was delivered to the dealer.
 
For the record, the bike has 35,000 km on it and the final drive oil has been changed 3 times by BMW authorized services, the last time sonme 5,000 km ago.
Someone also screwed up the parts delivery and it will take more than 3 days for the parts to be delivered. The Canadians blame the Yanks but regardless of the blame, the parts will not get to the dealer for at least 10 days after the bike was delivered to the dealer.

Which demonstrates one of the many ways owners with failed FDs have paid.....even if they got a new FD for free. So sorry for this unfortunate happening. Wishing you many trouble free miles in the future.
 
Interesting website. In looking at the data quickly - it appears there were 6 failures of Hexhead/EVO rear-drives reported to the website in 2010.

Other interesting numbers:

0 2010 models
2 2009 models
6 2008 models, but two of those were K12LT with a different FD
15 2007 models (16 reported, but one was a dup) 7 of the failures were on K12GT models (interesting).
19 2006 models, one of which was a K12LT, 4 K12GT.

In a site designed to show how bad the issue is they came up with 39 failures on bikes containing the latest FD in the last 5 model years. To put that in perspective BMW shipped just under 400,000 motorcycles in '06 thru '09 -- don't have the '10 figures yet. (391,495 bikes delivered according the '09 annual report).

Oh yeah, FDs are failing right and left. :violin
 
Other interesting numbers:

0 2010 models
2 2009 models
6 2008 models, but two of those were K12LT with a different FD
15 2007 models (16 reported, but one was a dup) 7 of the failures were on K12GT models (interesting).
19 2006 models, one of which was a K12LT, 4 K12GT.

In a site designed to show how bad the issue is they came up with 39 failures on bikes containing the latest FD in the last 5 model years. To put that in perspective BMW shipped just under 400,000 motorcycles in '06 thru '09 -- don't have the '10 figures yet. (391,495 bikes delivered according the '09 annual report).

Oh yeah, FDs are failing right and left. :violin

As these numbers do not come from BMW I take them with a grain of salt. What is of importance is the perception that BMW is no longer producing "failure free" machines but rather machines that may be failure prone during it's lifetime (way before the 100k mark). Although I've been riding BMW's for the last 23 years I would hesitate to recommend them to someone who would consider a change from a different brand.

If another brand would be prone to such failures would we be as forgiving to it's manufacturer?

Have a good weekend.
 
Did anyone else notice how many of the failures were blown seals, and how many of them occurred not too long after a dealer service of the final drive?

The service manager at Max BMW told me that different techs put different amounts of fluid in the drives, and he doesn't dictate to them how much to put in. The tech that worked on my bike for the 600 mile service in February told me that he doesn't trust the 180ml spec, and puts more in. He overfilled the engine oil by 8 oz also.

When I did my own FD fluid change for the first time, at 3900 miles, 230ml drained out. That means 250ml were in the drive. That's what the factory puts in. The color was dark brown to black. Not even remotely red. The 75/90 BMW gear oil that goes in the drive when replacing the oil is red. The stuff the factory puts in is brownish black I am told. I'm not sure they even did the final drive fluid change. I'm thankful that I was riding in very cold weather at that time.

There is a very small amount of play in the rear wheel, but it is within spec according to the latest service DVD. I don't think there was play in it when it was new in January, but that might just have been the colder temperatures stiffening the drive when I checked it cold. The small amount of play has not changed in about 7500 miles. My bike is a 2009 R1200R, and now has a bit under 12000 miles on it.

Anyway, from now on, I do the job myself, and often. And check for play in the rear wheel every few days. I bought the BMW Syringe type tool for the job, so I know I can put the correct amount in. I've done it a couple of times now.
 
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Did anyone else notice how many of the failures were blown seals, and how many of them occurred not too long after a dealer service of the final drive?

The service manager at Max BMW told me that different techs put different amounts of fluid in the drives, and he doesn't dictate to them how much to put in. The tech that worked on my bike for the 600 mile service in February told me that he doesn't trust the 180ml spec, and puts more in. He overfilled the engine oil by 8 oz also.
Wow. Just wow. That would be the last time that mechanic worked on my bike. Actually no mechanics do normal maintenance on my bike once it got the 600 mile service. I have the time and inclination to do it right.
When I did my own FD fluid change for the first time, at 3900 miles, 230ml drained out. That means 250ml were in the drive. That's what the factory puts in. The color was dark brown to black. Not even remotely red. The 75/90 BMW gear oil that goes in the drive when replacing the oil is red.
When I did mine at 24,000 miles (first change since the 600 mile, which I watched being done so I know it was changed - and the 12k interval change hadn't come as a spec from BMW yet) - it was clear red - just like the stuff I was putting back in. I very purposely drained it into a brand new baking tin so I could see if there was any contamination. None in 24k miles. I think the 12k change interval is very conservative given the condition of the oil I saw.
The stuff the factory puts in is brownish black I am told. I'm not sure they even did the final drive fluid change. I'm thankful that I was riding in very cold weather at that time.
Given what I saw - I'd also be questioning if they even did the change. Was there a charge on the bill for the oil? Sometimes that's a dead giveaway.
There is a very small amount of play in the rear wheel, but it is within spec according to the latest service DVD. I don't think there was play in it when it was new in January, but that might just have been the colder temperatures stiffening the drive when I checked it cold. The small amount of play has not changed in about 7500 miles. My bike is a 2009 R1200R, and now has a bit under 12000 miles on it.
My '07 with 37,500 on it has no play. I do check it quickly about once a month. I'll be doing the fluid again tomorrow since I'm leaving on a 3,000 mile ride in a week, and just figured I'd do it - bet it's still clear.
Anyway, from now on, I do the job myself, and often. And check for play in the rear wheel every few days. I bought the BMW Syringe type tool for the job, so I know I can put the correct amount in. I've done it a couple of times now.

Sounds like a plan..
 
As these numbers do not come from BMW I take them with a grain of salt.
But some people point to the same numbers telling us this will show us the TRUTH! Sort of a quandary once the numbers are actually compared.
What is of importance is the perception that BMW is no longer producing "failure free" machines but rather machines that may be failure prone during it's lifetime (way before the 100k mark). Although I've been riding BMW's for the last 23 years I would hesitate to recommend them to someone who would consider a change from a different brand.

If another brand would be prone to such failures would we be as forgiving to it's manufacturer?

Have a good weekend.
I don't think BMW, or ANY other bike maker has ever claimed to have a "failure free" motorcycle. I certainly can't recall the phrase being used in promo literature, or press releases. Machines have warts. BMWs have warts, Honda has warts, and some Italian machines have lots of warts. Compared to the brit bikes I rode in the 70's - a modern BMW is a exempler of reliability. Airheads were (and are) known for blowing up alternators - I doubt very much that many made it to 100k miles without at least one rotor replacement. K bricks have spline problems, fuel pump problems, melting light switches - despite that the owners love to claim brick like reliability. Oilheads have transmission problems, clutch control circuit problems, driveshaft problems - usually before 100k miles. You likely know this since you've been riding BMWs for 23 years.

So far - my R12R has been the most reliable vehicle (including cars) that I've ever owned. It has had 1 fuel strip in almost 40k miles - and that's it. I'm not at all unhappy about that - and if it exploded tomorrow, I'd be headed to the dealer to buy a new one. I've convinced a number of people to move to BMWs on R12R's, so far the people have thanked me for it.

I really don't understand the tendency of owners to bemoan BMWs reliability and their eventual fate as a failed manufacturer (BMW bike sales were UP 24% the last 6 months in a declining market), who still ride them. If they are that bad and make someone that unhappy - why not go buy something else? Be happy! Leaves me scratching my head sometimes.. but I guess it's human nature.

And a good weekend riding back at'cha!
 
As these numbers do not come from BMW I take them with a grain of salt.

A big grain of salt, I'd hope. :)

What is of importance is the perception that BMW is no longer producing "failure free" machines but rather machines that may be failure prone during it's lifetime (way before the 100k mark). Although I've been riding BMW's for the last 23 years I would hesitate to recommend them to someone who would consider a change from a different brand.

BMW never produced failure free motorcycles. The /2 would drop valve seats. Some years the heads deform due to bad metallurgy. Airheads are known for eating diode boards and rotors, either of which could ruin a vacation. Transmission splines sometimes need work. Driveshafts didn't last all that long on some early Paralever bikes. Transmission were the bane of early oilheads. Hall effect sensor wiring will leave you at the side of the road, too. Before nikasil you could count on a top end job somewhere between 80K and 100K miles. At least that failure rarely left you stranded.

Those who think the old bikes were bulletproof are showing the power of selective memory... or too many drugs! :groovy

My R80RT, for example, needed a spline lube at under 40K miles (couldn't shift) and had electrical issues (sometimes the bike wouldn't stop running until you waited by the side of the road for 10 minutes, then all would be well again).

If another brand would be prone to such failures would we be as forgiving to it's manufacturer?

:dunno Good question.
 
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