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Spydering

I haven't driven the RT. Fred Rau is very enthusiastic about the RT. It has the same systems as the RS, but considerably more luggage capacity, larger windshield, etc.

Fred's wife Cherrie apparently likes the Spyder RT better than the Gold Wing, from the perspective of a passenger.

And certainly, Fred and Cherrie have put down a lot of miles on Spyders over the past couple of years. Fred has become a consultant to BRP on the development of the RT. BRP is a huge firm with lots of experience in personal watercraft, snowmobiles, and regional aircraft. They also own Rotax in Austria, and Johnson and Evinrude outboard motors in the USA. But with no experience in motorcycle touring, they really did listen to Fred and take his advice.

Last December I flew to LAX to borrow a Spyder demo. I had expected an RT, but the PR firm had lent theirs to Rider magazine, so I got an RS very similar to mine. During out trip to Las Vegas, Fred asked me whether I would have chosen the RT over the S if one had been available. Since my wife no longer rides on motorcycles, I decided I would have chosen the RS. However, I did add the BRP/GIVI bags, and carry a big adventure duffle on the back for additional gear.

In terms of handling, I followed Fred through some twisty backroads in the Mojave, and he didn't seem to be slowed down by the additional weight. I believe the RT has a slightly wider footprint.

On the flip-flop back to LA, I mulled over the implications of a trike vs a two wheeler. Obviously, a two-wheeler is much more agile in corners and requires much less effort. But there I was motoring west on the superslab. For someone who really enjoys cornering, a good handling bike is great. But the reality is that most of us spend more than 90% of our miles on relatively straight roads. And a trike shines in that environment.

Apparently, BRP has had complaints of handling with the RT, and they seem to take all the reports seriously. But they have also found that owners are often ignorant of maintenance issues that most motorcycliest understand. For instance, when they investigated one "bad handling" case, they found tire pressures at 8psi and shocks set on soft.

My advice: take both the RT and RS for a demo ride, as long as they will let you get away with. Be aware that an experienced motorcyclist will typically over-correct for minor tracking excursions, and that may cause you to think it's not steering correctly. You have to learn to relax and let it track more side-to-side than a typical two-wheeler--similar to driving a sidecar outfit. It takes about a week to get used to the feel and learn to trust it. I've also learned to watch road crown, and put the rear tire just to the left of the lane center "hump" to stabliize my line.

pmdave
 
My advice: take both the RT and RS for a demo ride, as long as they will let you get away with. Be aware that an experienced motorcyclist will typically over-correct for minor tracking excursions, and that may cause you to think it's not steering correctly. You have to learn to relax and let it track more side-to-side than a typical two-wheeler--similar to driving a sidecar outfit. It takes about a week to get used to the feel and learn to trust it. I've also learned to watch road crown, and put the rear tire just to the left of the lane center "hump" to stabliize my line.

pmdave

Thank you.
 
I test rode one last year. Came home with a big grin on my face and Nancy asked me if I was going to buy one.

Could smoke the rear tire in first and second gear w/o much effort.

I compared it to riding a street legal, over sized ATV as you see the two front tires.

I could see one some time in my future.
 
The Spyder has a CanBus electrical system much like today's BMWs.

pmdave

I found this to be an interesting observation..'cause I asked this very question to one of the Can Am reps and couldn't answer it...guess I asked the wrong person.

Thanks,

Clay
Kimberton,Pa.
 
Well, BRP doesn't call it "Can Bus". The Spyder electrical system is a complex maze of computers called "Electronic Management System" (EMS) that I suspect is somewhat more complex than that in a late model BMW motorcycle.

To quote from the manual, "The vehicle senses it's surroundings utilizing mulitple on-board electronic control modules. These sophisticated systems monitor and control a broad range of functions.

The vehicle features the following systems:
-EMS Engine Management System
-VSS Vehicle Stability System
-DPS Dynamic Power Steering..."

The main systems not only gather information from different sensors, but share information, and produce fault codes when any problems are sensed. The main systems include subsystems. For instance, the VSS includes stability control, ABS, electronic brake distribution, and traction control, all managed by a Vehicle Control Module (VCM)

Everything is accessible via special BRP software, and when there is a problem the first step is to plug the machine into the software and do an analysis. Let's say your brake light burns out. The appropriate computer senses a "brake fault" because you shouldn't be driving around without brake lights. The appropriate" computer might be the VSS, because that's the big daddy for braking. So, you might get a dash warning of VSS fault. And if you ignore that, the computer might eventually go into "limp home mode" to get your attention.

I had a couple of minor issues early on, and had to deal with my feelings about the BRP approach. Basically, the Spyder is about as complex as any of today's automobiles. The technician fiddles less with mechanical adjustments, and gets right to the heart of a problem through onboard diagnostics. I've gotten used to that approach with our cars, but with my motorcycles I'm still stuck back in the dark ages of pulling things apart and tinkering.

I'm gradually learning to accept the Spyder for what it is, and also learning not to twiddle with the systems. For instance, I thought it would be smart to replace the tail light bulbs with LED bulbs. Whoops! the VSS computer didn't like that. Not enough amperage to indicate functioning lights, so up pop the faults on the instrument cluster, and the engine stayed in Limp Home mode. I didn't realize a computer was monitoring brake light current, but I should have suspected. The fix was a trip to the Spyder tech who immediately zeroed in on the fault. We plugged the stock incandescent bulbs back in, and that made the computer happy. Shades of Hal in Space Odyssey!

So, I'm probably incorrect calling the Spyder system "Can Bus", and if a Spyder saleman hummed and hawed a bit trying to snswer a specific question, that might be because he/she doesn't know, or doesn't know how to discuss the details without getting all wrapped around the axle. Who cares what sort of electrical system it has? It either works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't it will tell you why. Maybe we should call it a "PFM" electrical system.

pmdave
 
From what I saw at the Gilmore Museum bike show this weekend some Spyder owners have found a way to incorporate LED lighting on their bikes. Some seem to have it everywhere, but it must be the manner in which it's hooked up that is important.

In any event, if you can handle another question, here it is: can you compare the Spyder to a 2 wheel bike in terms of safety of the rider? Do you think the stability in general makes it a safer bike? Is the width deceiving and something it might be easy to forget? That 5' wheel track is substantial. I realize, of course, that safety is largely in the hands of the driver, but I'm wondering about your impressions at this point. After all, your books were the first and most often referred to in my library of riding books.

Thank you ... again.
 
The Can Am tent at Daytona Bike Week hosted lots of demo rides -- there was a crowd waiting for rides whenever we passed their booth. We wanted to demo the RT but ran out of time.

The picture below was a group Spyders that arrived in Daytona a few days before the rally started. They had Canadian plates and I thought they must have had a great time riding down to Florida. I caught up with them just as they were exiting the Interstate.


35.jpg
 
Well, BRP doesn't call it "Can Bus". The Spyder electrical system is a complex maze of computers called "Electronic Management System" (EMS) that I suspect is somewhat more complex than that in a late model BMW motorcycle.

To quote from the manual, "The vehicle senses it's surroundings utilizing mulitple on-board electronic control modules. These sophisticated systems monitor and control a broad range of functions.

The vehicle features the following systems:
-EMS Engine Management System
-VSS Vehicle Stability System
-DPS Dynamic Power Steering..."

The main systems not only gather information from different sensors, but share information, and produce fault codes when any problems are sensed. The main systems include subsystems. For instance, the VSS includes stability control, ABS, electronic brake distribution, and traction control, all managed by a Vehicle Control Module (VCM)

Everything is accessible via special BRP software, and when there is a problem the first step is to plug the machine into the software and do an analysis. Let's say your brake light burns out. The appropriate computer senses a "brake fault" because you shouldn't be driving around without brake lights. The appropriate" computer might be the VSS, because that's the big daddy for braking. So, you might get a dash warning of VSS fault. And if you ignore that, the computer might eventually go into "limp home mode" to get your attention.

I had a couple of minor issues early on, and had to deal with my feelings about the BRP approach. Basically, the Spyder is about as complex as any of today's automobiles. The technician fiddles less with mechanical adjustments, and gets right to the heart of a problem through onboard diagnostics. I've gotten used to that approach with our cars, but with my motorcycles I'm still stuck back in the dark ages of pulling things apart and tinkering.

I'm gradually learning to accept the Spyder for what it is, and also learning not to twiddle with the systems. For instance, I thought it would be smart to replace the tail light bulbs with LED bulbs. Whoops! the VSS computer didn't like that. Not enough amperage to indicate functioning lights, so up pop the faults on the instrument cluster, and the engine stayed in Limp Home mode. I didn't realize a computer was monitoring brake light current, but I should have suspected. The fix was a trip to the Spyder tech who immediately zeroed in on the fault. We plugged the stock incandescent bulbs back in, and that made the computer happy. Shades of Hal in Space Odyssey!

So, I'm probably incorrect calling the Spyder system "Can Bus", and if a Spyder saleman hummed and hawed a bit trying to snswer a specific question, that might be because he/she doesn't know, or doesn't know how to discuss the details without getting all wrapped around the axle. Who cares what sort of electrical system it has? It either works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't it will tell you why. Maybe we should call it a "PFM" electrical system.

pmdave

Dave..you where correct the first time...

http://motorcycletestdrive.com/spyder.html

..just the rep I asked couldn't answer the question if the Spyder utilized Can Bus.. Can Bus is not a proprietary term by any particular manufacturer..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_area_network

Regards,

Clay
Kimberton,Pa
 
If you like the Spyder you would actually have more fun in a Miata.

IMO you take the greatest part of how a motorcycle operates (lean to turn, single track)
and throw it out the window.

You then take the best part of a sports car, the fact that you are strapped in, and throw that out the window.

Glad it works for you, but no thanks.
 
The LED lights are by accessory firms that have worked out the necessary black boxes, resistors, etc. to make them work with the Spyder systems. I have the "Triple Play" turn signal kit that uses LEDs in the turn signal pods, tied through a black box to the brake lights. So, they function as turn signals or extra brake lights.

In terms of rider safety, a trike continues to remind the operator that there are three wheels under it. On slippery pavement, if one or more of the tires slide, a three-wheeler just slides sideways, but doesn't necessarily fall down.

And, when dribbling along at slow speeds, you don't have to keep balancing or taking dabs to keep the Spyder vertical. For someone who is experiencing weak leg muscles, driving a Spyder adds peace of mind.

In my case, driving a machine that is not supposed to be operated on dirt or gravel adds another mental element. I'm much less likely to go exploring remote roads on the Spyder--where I could (and have) gotten myself into trouble.

pmdave
 
I considered a Miata (or one of the other compact sports cars on the market today)

I decided I wasn't through motorcycling yet. I can drive the Spyder onto the rally grounds even though it isn't a BMW motorcycle. I'd have to park the Miata ouside the gate.

A car will always be more economical than a motorcycle, because so many more people drive cars. And maintenance/repair is much easier and more efficient because there are so many more car facilties. And, for those who can make the switch from a motorcycle to a sport car, I must assume there are car clubs for the different marques.

But this part of the forum is about motorcycles.

For a motorcycle that has the advantage of being semi-enclosed, may I suggest the BMW-powered Scorpion, or the HD powered Liberty Cycle Car?

pmdave
 

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If anyone is interested in discussing the Spyder, handling, the mods I've made, etc., feel free to ask questions.

Dave - have you considered putting a set of rally tires on that thing and riding off-pavement?

Bombardier should develop a GS variant of the Spyder. I bet you could mow over just about anything with that bike... um... trike.

ian
 
There are a few limiting factors other than tires.

The final belt drive has covers, but a stone could fling past them onto the belt and get jammed into the pulley. That would cause significant damage to the belt or pully, or both. That's true of all belt drive machines.

Ground clearance is very limited. And there is no practical way to jack the Spyder up to create more clearance. It's low-slung on purpose for stability on pavement.

Traction control would be affected by the tires drifting on a loose surface such as gravel. I'm not sure what that would do to steering or stability control, but BRP is very specific about not driving a Spyder on unpaved roads. They don't say what to do when you encounter a detour. I have to ride "gravel" to get from my garage to the county road, and I just drive it slowly enough to not stir up any loose rocks.

The other side of this is the need to limit yourself to what you can do (or what your body allows you to do) Knowing the Spyder isn't designed to handle unpaved backroads encourages me to avoid them.

And, as noted somewhere else, if I want to go blasting down FS roads, I'd take the airhead/Ural sidecar rig with the knobbies.

Of course, BRP is perfectly capable of designing a dual sport trike. But so far they have focused on the street trikes.

pmdave
 
I've seen several of these trikes at northern California events. I was told they are called "Scorpions"

The power train is a K, with BMW final suspension and drive. Side by side two bucket seats.

For a BMW enthusiast, here's a trike that is BMW powered.

Anyone have more details on this? Is it a kit? Who builds them?

pmdave
 

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Dumb question, but how do you back it up?

Pete in OKC, OK

The Spyders have a reverse gear. You press an R switch and shift down, and it goes into reverse. Full engine power is available, so there is no problem backing out of downhill parking spots.

pmdave
 
Yes, I'd be interested in your impressions of the handling and the mods you've made to it, and why.

Regarding handling, I'm interested in how it feels cornering. Does it give any of the visceral feel of a 2 wheeler? Is it a confident corner taker, or do you find yourself scaring yourself from time to time? In other words, how predictable is the cornering and do you get a warning if you're too hot? On 2 wheels you can always try more lean if you feel like you're too fast - what do you do on a Spyder?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I've never thought of a rigid three-wheeler giving any of the same feel as a two-wheeler. Steering the Spyder takes a bit more effort than if taking the same corner on a bike. But the confidence is much greater, since a trike can slide or drift in low traction situations without falling down.

Cornering is very predictable. The stability control system eases off the power if it senses any wheel is losing traction. But, as with any other rigid three-wheeler, hanging off toward the inside helps keep the inside front wheel on the ground, so that expands the envelope.

The power steering is speed sensitive, so as you attempt to corner faster, there is less power steering boost, wihich encourages you to slow down.

My experience is that you can corner faster on a Spyder than your sight distance should allow--similar to a fast bike. The Spyder takes more energy to steer, but the payoff is the confidence that you aren' t going to slide out and crash.

When I first read about the stability control, I thought it would hamper my style, but I've discovered that if you are bumping up against the roll control limits, you're driving very aggressively. I think a good bike ridden by a skilled rider should be able to out-corner a Spyder, assuming clean, dry pavement. But in the real world there are lots of surface hazards for which a clever rider would keep speed well within the envelope.

pmdave
 
In any event, if you can handle another question, here it is: can you compare the Spyder to a 2 wheel bike in terms of safety of the rider? Do you think the stability in general makes it a safer bike? Is the width deceiving and something it might be easy to forget? That 5' wheel track is substantial. I realize, of course, that safety is largely in the hands of the driver, but I'm wondering about your impressions at this point. After all, your books were the first and most often referred to in my library of riding books.

Thank you ... again.[/QUOTE]

Motorcyclists who have been riding bikes for a few years have learned to really scrutinize the road surface. Just a dribble of diesel fuel or a wet plastic arrow can instantly dump you on your butt, so we learn to maximize traction. What's less obvious about that is that managing traction takes a lot of mental effort. A three-wheeler can drift and slide a bit without the risk of sliding out. For instance, one front tire can be losing traction, but the other tire helps hold the line. A slick RR crossing or an edge trap don't pucker you up on a trike or sidecar rig the same as if you were riding a bike.

With a rigid three-wheeler, you don't have to spend nearly as much attention on the surface. You just power along, and if it drifts a bit, that's no big deal. In fact, drifting is a way to reduce the rollover forces, so you may drift intentionally. The roll control computer doesn't seem to limit rear wheel slip so long as the front wheels maintain traction.

More and more motorcycle crashes are occuring where the rider loses control in a curve, and either collides with an oncoming car, or smashes into some roadside object. The Spyder will remind you of the cornering forces, and encourage you to not increase speed, even if you are hanging off to reduce the rollover forces. There is power steering, but the engineers have made it speed sensitive, probably on purpose. There is less power steering at higher speeds than with a sports car.

One of the big "safety" advantages of a Spyder is that they are comparatively rare--although lots of non-motorcyclists have seen them in TV ads, so there is an instant curiousity. I suspect that this works in favor of the Spyder Dryver, because it's less likely another driver will fail to observe a Spyder. I get a lot more thumbs up than when riding a bike, which means they saw me coming. I can't remember a single situation over the past year where someone made a quick turn in front of me.

I have to believe that training has an effect on the risks. And while BRP suggests taking a course, they apparently don't know about the S/TEP, or believe that the MSF is the appropriate agency to do trike training. The MSF has announced their new "3BRC" course for trikes. I haven't taken one or audited one. I would suggest for anyone thinking about any three-wheeled motorcycle to take the S/TEP.

pmdave
 
I have to believe that training has an effect on the risks. And while BRP suggests taking a course, they apparently don't know about the S/TEP, or believe that the MSF is the appropriate agency to do trike training. The MSF has announced their new "3BRC" course for trikes. I haven't taken one or audited one. I would suggest for anyone thinking about any three-wheeled motorcycle to take the S/TEP.pmdave
Another thank you for your commentary. We did our first demo ride yesterday and it didn't take long to figure out how different the Spyder is from a 2-wheeler and what a challenge it is to steer a good line through a corner. I'm sure it will all come with time.
 
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