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The Hassles of Protective Gear
- Thread starter tommcgee
- Start date
greenwald
New member
When all is said and done, more is said than done.
Real debate requires the willingness to change your mind given sufficient information.
I haven't seen anyone on this thread change their mind.
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
You're not.
I suspect that those of us who believe in helmet use 100% of the time tonight will still hold such beliefs next week and next month.
Conversely, those who feel differently tonight will still hold to their positions tomorrow and next week and next month, etc. etc.
It's not about "I'm right and you're wrong." It's more about let me pay my fair share based on my choices, and not be penalized for someone else's.
Like you said - easier said than done.
Y
Yarddog
Guest
Isn't this debate a whole lot better than "I bought the wrong garment...need it altered...but don't want to use a tailor"...or "what's in your saddle bags"! Just because no one changes their mind doesn't mean that things can't be discussed...
Okay. I accept the fact that riding without a helmet is an inherently dangerous thing to do. I also accept that hospitals incorporate this inherently dangerous activitity into their triage and treatment protocols. I accept that society has to bear some, or all, of the financial burden of those who choose not to wear a helmetand don't have the financial means to pay, or health insurance? I accept that there are statistics that confirm that riding without a helmet is inherently dangerous. And I accept that the political will has used these arguements to decree that my choice is now gone, and I must wear a helmet.
Is there anyone out there that doesn't agree that riding a motorcycle, with or without a helmet, is an inherently dangerous activity? Is there anyone who will dispute the fact that hospitals incorporate this dangerous activity of riding a motorcycle into their treatment protocol? Is there anyone who will argue that society doesn't bear the cost of those who choose to ride a motorcycle without health insurance or the means to pay for their treatment? Who can dispute that the statistics are crystal clear that the chances are much, much higher that you will get into an accident in the first place, and your injuries will likely be greater if you choose to ride a motorcycle over driving a car?
So, if you sit there and accept that there is reason enough to remove our choice to wear a helmet from those who stand most to lose from such activity, I tell ya that our government is MORE than capable of removing our choice to ride a motorcycle. Period.
So, those who advocate helmet laws, remember this...the same government who brought us helmet laws can very easily use the same ammunition to justify them to eventually bring us laws that would ban motorcycles from use. Will it happen? Maybe not in our lifetime, maybe not at all, but I suggest that none of us get too smug in our willingness to remove choices from the lives of other folks!!! That can come around to bite y'all in the buttocks, too!
Okay. I accept the fact that riding without a helmet is an inherently dangerous thing to do. I also accept that hospitals incorporate this inherently dangerous activitity into their triage and treatment protocols. I accept that society has to bear some, or all, of the financial burden of those who choose not to wear a helmetand don't have the financial means to pay, or health insurance? I accept that there are statistics that confirm that riding without a helmet is inherently dangerous. And I accept that the political will has used these arguements to decree that my choice is now gone, and I must wear a helmet.
Is there anyone out there that doesn't agree that riding a motorcycle, with or without a helmet, is an inherently dangerous activity? Is there anyone who will dispute the fact that hospitals incorporate this dangerous activity of riding a motorcycle into their treatment protocol? Is there anyone who will argue that society doesn't bear the cost of those who choose to ride a motorcycle without health insurance or the means to pay for their treatment? Who can dispute that the statistics are crystal clear that the chances are much, much higher that you will get into an accident in the first place, and your injuries will likely be greater if you choose to ride a motorcycle over driving a car?
So, if you sit there and accept that there is reason enough to remove our choice to wear a helmet from those who stand most to lose from such activity, I tell ya that our government is MORE than capable of removing our choice to ride a motorcycle. Period.
So, those who advocate helmet laws, remember this...the same government who brought us helmet laws can very easily use the same ammunition to justify them to eventually bring us laws that would ban motorcycles from use. Will it happen? Maybe not in our lifetime, maybe not at all, but I suggest that none of us get too smug in our willingness to remove choices from the lives of other folks!!! That can come around to bite y'all in the buttocks, too!
C
cbck1200s
Guest
Gawd, I love a lively debate!!!! Thanks Theo, I loved your comments so much that I had to look up Obfuscated [to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy] just to make sure I was on the same page.
So here it is...we are in the fifth round and by my scoring I put the "helmets" A-HEAD on points.
cbcK1200S - Colin
///////// =o&o>
Bud
It is what it is.
No, yes.
This isn't a debate, however the discussion does certainly provide some interesting reading.
Y
Yarddog
Guest
Yes, it is VERY interesting!!!
35634
Mars needs women!
Interesting and disturbing point. Has anyone noticed as cars have gotten safer (air bags, anti-lock, skid control, crush zones, on-star et cetera, drivers have merely paid less attention to driving (cell phones, gps, entertainment systems) Bikes can be made safer, but part of the attraction for some of us is the skill level needed to keep danger at bay.
Y
Yarddog
Guest
...so very, very true...and a good point for us motorcyclists to be aware of!
H
haughty
Guest
great comments...
I remember the debate with friends over the years..All in good friendship over helmets, riding, dreams, you know, the things that make life sweet.
and then the other side...
One by one, having to go to their funerals or hearing of their passing from M/C... Not wearing the helmet/gear was one of the seeming threads of similarity. One I had given a bike to.. WE had the talk- he would do this and that.(RSC/Helmet/gear.. etc). Just never got to "THAT" part of what was promised. Their times ended.
I guess I am just selfish.. I should have gone first- these people were supposed to live longer than me..
Lots of quandaries here within my mind would it have helped if they had been wearing it on that fateful day. Could I have made an impression upon them that would make them just reconsider for just a moment of what lay ahead IF they had chosen that other path?
I know- we cannot change what does not wish to change.
If I had that knowledge-of foretelling the future- I wouldn't have let that friend have that day off...
I wouldn't have made that meeting with him that day...
I wouldn't have given that Motorcycle to a friend.
I thought about these things- Its been really hard to weigh the pros and cons of today....
I know its not just a monetary toll upon the system as a whole but the community as well.. The riding community..
WHat ever your choice- enjoy it, be safe- Let the only emotion showed is one of the enjoyment this has brought to us. SMile- makes people wonder what you are up to....LOL
so with that---
I wonder what the newest safety enhancements are going to be....
Autonomous articulating arms operated by Gyros and GPS to pick us up and remove us from danger....
(bet those that have adult beverages for sale will have alot to chime in)...
A nanny minder-- "your speed is out of specification for this road and your skill level" :^)
"override engaged- assimilating within traffic parameters"
"sensors indicate your point of vision is narrowed towards human subject outside your age and dress variables- initiation of electrical shock to shift vision back towards road ahead...
"Helmet exceeds criteria of preservation of brain matter.. insert 10 dollars for the next 30 minutes"
I remember the debate with friends over the years..All in good friendship over helmets, riding, dreams, you know, the things that make life sweet.
and then the other side...
One by one, having to go to their funerals or hearing of their passing from M/C... Not wearing the helmet/gear was one of the seeming threads of similarity. One I had given a bike to.. WE had the talk- he would do this and that.(RSC/Helmet/gear.. etc). Just never got to "THAT" part of what was promised. Their times ended.
I guess I am just selfish.. I should have gone first- these people were supposed to live longer than me..
Lots of quandaries here within my mind would it have helped if they had been wearing it on that fateful day. Could I have made an impression upon them that would make them just reconsider for just a moment of what lay ahead IF they had chosen that other path?
I know- we cannot change what does not wish to change.
If I had that knowledge-of foretelling the future- I wouldn't have let that friend have that day off...
I wouldn't have made that meeting with him that day...
I wouldn't have given that Motorcycle to a friend.
I thought about these things- Its been really hard to weigh the pros and cons of today....
I know its not just a monetary toll upon the system as a whole but the community as well.. The riding community..
WHat ever your choice- enjoy it, be safe- Let the only emotion showed is one of the enjoyment this has brought to us. SMile- makes people wonder what you are up to....LOL
so with that---
I wonder what the newest safety enhancements are going to be....
Autonomous articulating arms operated by Gyros and GPS to pick us up and remove us from danger....
(bet those that have adult beverages for sale will have alot to chime in)...
A nanny minder-- "your speed is out of specification for this road and your skill level" :^)
"override engaged- assimilating within traffic parameters"
"sensors indicate your point of vision is narrowed towards human subject outside your age and dress variables- initiation of electrical shock to shift vision back towards road ahead...
"Helmet exceeds criteria of preservation of brain matter.. insert 10 dollars for the next 30 minutes"
greenwald
New member
An interesting perspective.
However, I doubt the average teenager or soccer mom truly comprehends and could explain in detail such concepts as 'skid control' or 'crush zone' or 'anti-lock.'
I submit that more and more operators today drive distracted, not because they believe they are in less danger of death or injury due to technological advances, but rather because of a shift in attitude.
It's that whole 'personal responsibility' animal that frequently rears its head. Conviniently, everything is always somebody else's fault.
Too many drivers simply don't care if they are a menace to others (particularly us vulnerable motorcyclists) - they just prioritize texting, cellphones, stereos and 'Fluffy' bouncing on their lap over proper driving habits, legal operation and responsible behavior.
No need to agree - just my personal observations and conclusions as I drive as defensively as possible whenever on two wheels.
The roads today are definitely a more hostile environment than when I was a teenager, when 'speed-freaks' and those who abused beer were the two main worries.
I deal with it by Searching, Evaluating, Executing and ATGATT.
Ride Safe!
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R
rocketman
Guest
And that is one argument that I have always had a problem with, the old "slippery Slope" postulation. Following that, since many more people die in cars they should have been banned years ago, but they weren't, they were made safer. Yes, there are many more drivers of auto than bikes and enjoy a much more powerful lobby, but the fact remains they (cars) are still around. As bikes gain popularity and become seen more and more as real transportation then they too will enjoy greater support.
The bottom line for me is the idea that once a regulation is passed in some area, it inevitably will lead to Total control or banning of same just donÔÇÖt wash (unless We allow it). I just donÔÇÖt see that happening and most examples I have seen given of such (like smoking) are based on valid and well thought out reasons. IÔÇÖm not a big fan of anti-stupidity laws but there are times when it is needed for the common good. It is one aspect of living in a society, we enjoy the many benefits so much therefore make some sacrifices. Ones that arenÔÇÖt can be (and have been) overturned. I donÔÇÖt see us as being or becoming ÔÇ£salvesÔÇØ to the government will (unless we fail to take action), their power after all, comes from US, the people. We simply need to ensure We continue to exercise our rights to ensure those who would use their power in government are removed from such office. When we fail to do that, then yes the slippery slope might just wash us all away.
RM
Thanks...a little humor to a harsh reality some of us have dealt with as you have as well.
I already have that function on my bike when Helen is riding near me...
H
haughty
Guest
Thanks...a little humor to a harsh reality some of us have dealt with as you have as well.
I already have that function on my bike when Helen is riding near me...
she doesn't use the spray bottle, does she?
"Down Boy!"
Atomicman52
New member
Many of these distracting gizmos and gadgets were just not available in the past.
I say it is just a simple function of the advancement of technology.
As the technology to make safer cars has progressed, some of that same technology has also made avaialble more gizmos and gadgets to distract the driver.
but don't get me wrong, the prevalent "it's all about me" & no personal responsibility and piss poor attitude crowd drives me nutz and is a huge problem.
I'll give you 3 examples that make me crazy!
#1. folks who drive at normal street speed in parking lots!
#2. A vehicle ISstopped in my lane, I'm not going to stop , I'm just going to drive across the center line in the other lane!
#3 Get the F up to freeway speed when getting on the freeway!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
greenwald
New member
Theo
Touring Panpsychist
Or at least the WI residents who have moved there from Massachusetts!
I tend to agree with Maddog. In B.C. Canada we have a bicycle helmut law (which is not enforced) and a motorcycle helmet law which probably is, but some of the helmuts are so non-protective I wonder if I would be stopped if I wore an aluminum pie plate on my head secured with rubber bands.
I wonder, if at least in some jurisdictions, enforcement of existing helmet laws is just quietly dropped because it would contradict religious freedom laws. Male Muslims, for example, might have difficulty riding with a full-face helmet.
But if you are not Muslim, I would really like to hear from the folks who wear no helmet or a beanie or know these folk. WHY? (Price? Fashion statement? Flaunting the law?)
I started riding about 14 years ago and borrowed EVERYTHING until I was sure this was for me. My first borrowed helmut was an open face model and I've never forgotten just how painful large rain drops were at 50 mph. So I went from full-face to flip-up and back to full- face.
Just curious what roadriders who use no or minimal head protection (and probably no ear protection) get from the experience. Clearly I and many others just don't understand. Good helmuts with good ear-plugs, for me, are essential to make the riding experience pleasureable. But clearly there are other points of view. Love to hear them.
Again, I think I agree with Maddog about choice. We each arm ourselves, both mentally and gearwise, for the trip. We should be allowed to make those choices.
Obviously, not the last word.
I wonder, if at least in some jurisdictions, enforcement of existing helmet laws is just quietly dropped because it would contradict religious freedom laws. Male Muslims, for example, might have difficulty riding with a full-face helmet.
But if you are not Muslim, I would really like to hear from the folks who wear no helmet or a beanie or know these folk. WHY? (Price? Fashion statement? Flaunting the law?)
I started riding about 14 years ago and borrowed EVERYTHING until I was sure this was for me. My first borrowed helmut was an open face model and I've never forgotten just how painful large rain drops were at 50 mph. So I went from full-face to flip-up and back to full- face.
Just curious what roadriders who use no or minimal head protection (and probably no ear protection) get from the experience. Clearly I and many others just don't understand. Good helmuts with good ear-plugs, for me, are essential to make the riding experience pleasureable. But clearly there are other points of view. Love to hear them.
Again, I think I agree with Maddog about choice. We each arm ourselves, both mentally and gearwise, for the trip. We should be allowed to make those choices.
Obviously, not the last word.
alzyck
New member
Y
Yarddog
Guest
What about those drivers talking on their cell phones? They act as though they can drive and talk at the same time. If you want to get cranky about something, that's one we can all agree on.
Yep...I agree...however, in my state, talking on a cell phone without using a headset has been outlawed for almost two years, and it's as if that law never existed...Every other driver holds her/his cell phone in their hands and goes on yakkin'...
