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Thread: NY Times On HLDI Study: Helmets & ABS Good, Safety Courses Not Effective

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by racer7 View Post
    Be careful about wishing for extreme licensing and training requirements lest you get what you wish for. That would kill dealerships, sales and support for this hobby out of proportion to benefits that IMO are mostly theoretical.
    i hear you about "extreme" but why does the european market flourish with its graduated licensing systems?

    my personal issue is the ability for someone with *no* training whatsoever having the ability to buy what is essentially a professional racing motorcycle and take it directly into traffic.

    Go soothingly through the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________
    '67 Trail 90 || '86 R80 G/SPD+ || '97 F650ST || '00 1150 GS || '06 HP2e || '07 Xchallenge || '14 Grom

  2. #32
    Small road corner junkie pffog's Avatar
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    Apr 2006
    WNY, Further fron NYC, than 6 entire states!
    Quote Originally Posted by Visian View Post

    hey, it's like riding or driving in europe. people go fast, but they know wtf they're doing!
    NO my theory on Europe drivers, is Darwinism at it finest. If you screw up there, where there are sometimes 2000 foot cliffs unprotected by guardrails, you die before you can breed and teach your offspring bad habits.

    OR, because they take their licensing seriously, rude and stupid drivers loose their license, and again they cannot teach their offspring to drive, thus passing on bad habits.

  3. #33
    Registered User xp8103's Avatar
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    Apr 2008

    I think it works in Europe because MC's are seen as a viable alternative to cars when viewed thru the prism of gas mileage, $7.00/gal gas, inner city congestion and "congestion taxes", etc... So enforcing a graduated licensing scheme is simply something that is just "dealt with".

    None of that applies here. In this country, MC's in VERY few cases are alternatives to cars but instead are a simple pleasure or hobby. Would the US stand for a graduated licensing structure? I think it could be done but the biker lobby would be tough to get past (see: helmet laws)
    Nik #140220 - '88 K75C | '77 R100RS | '06 DL650
    '96 R1100RS - R.I.P.
    Helmets don't save lives but loud pipes do?

  4. #34
    It is what it is. Bud's Avatar
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    Feb 2006
    Long gone
    Quote Originally Posted by visian View Post

    no, really... At a minimum i feel that we should have a graduated licensing system.

    The fact that a kid can go out and buy a "boosa" without any training or restriction whatsoever is absolutely nuts.
    Ride Well

  5. #35
    Registered User ANDYVH's Avatar
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    Jun 2005
    Green Bay, WI
    Glad to see others feel the same as to rider attitude. Without changing the attitude, no real change takes place. Same applies to drinking problems, weight control issues, on and on. The attitude toward the problem or activity determines ALL the applicable choices. My niece was always overwieght, well into her 20's. until one day she decided, no more, and in one year lost 90 lbs and has never changed back.

    Some other comments based off another response:

    I ride in Wisconsin from early March to early December, and in the winter when the urge hits and roads permit. About 10,000 miles per year in all conditions. I can count a few crashes in my history that were all my fault, and I also count as VERY few the times I have to panic react in traffic. Oh, I love to wear off the chicken strips at the edges of my tires. Not a boring rider this one.

    The MSF does train its coaches on Rider Attitude, but given the brief 16 hours we have with 12 to 24 students it is difficult to strongly instill a proper attitude that is not actively supported in the general rider community. The community has to evolve to make this a common driver. Mentorship of fellow riders would do a lot to help. Those of us with many years of experience and survival are the ones to start that.

    Parking lot balance skills for BEGINNER riders is essential and a basic skill set new riders need to learn and develop to progress to street riding speeds. It is not utterly worthless, but consider it more a building block. Again, we are only given 16 hours to focus on five critical skill sets with riders. Personally, I feel the basic rider course should be at least 40 hours long. but who would sign up for that in this "I want it NOW!" US mentality?

    "Maybe basic training ought to start at the track with the students own bike instead of in a parking lot with a loaner tiddler...." OK, in this ligititous society, who's gonna pony up the bucks to support this program? Insurance costs would be ridiculous, meaning the course cost would exceed what the basic course costs now. Perhaps not bad because it would weed out the ones not really suited to riding, but mostly at the financial level. Again, US riders, as a whole, want it NOW, want it quick and want it cheap. Few riders would commit the time and personal involvement to really learn at that level. Plus, so many newbies are intimidated FAR enough on loaner tiddlers on a parking lot. I bet a track would be too much for them. But then, perhaps they are the ones that should not ride? Again, things are too easy and accomodating in our US society.
    Get trained! The best "performance" upgrade you can get is YOU. Visit for training info.

  6. #36
    Registered User lkchris's Avatar
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    Mar 2003
    Albuquerque, NM
    Quote Originally Posted by OfficerImpersonator View Post
    The problem with the MSF courses is that they teach you how to operate a 250cc motorcycle in a parking lot. I operate a 1150cc motorcycle on busy roads and highways.
    Yes, the essence of the problem.

    Also, don't omit that MSF insists the only way to shut a motorcycle engine off is with the kill switch. Lives are saved hourly by this, I'm sure. (In parking lots at least.)
    Kent Christensen
    '12 R1200RT, '02 R1100S, '84 R80G/S

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
    Yes, the essence of the problem.

    Also, don't omit that MSF insists the only way to shut a motorcycle engine off is with the kill switch. Lives are saved hourly by this, I'm sure. (In parking lots at least.)

    I've had a bike or two without a kill switch and the idea of trying to adjust the valves while they were running is mind boggling!

    No wait, they were two-strokes! Problem solved!


  8. #38
    Has the GS-Lust The_Veg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Atlanta 'burbs

    RE: ABS and such

    Just as an anecdotal aside, I know a few older riders who insist that they'd get killed if they tried to ride a modern bike with ABS and other, as they call them, "so-called safety systems."

    I just try not to ride with those guys.
    2012 R1200GS

    "If you can't fix it with a hammer, it's electrical." -somebody's dad

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