Flashpoint

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Method for re-purposing Forum contributions

Originally posted by Greg Feeler First, I have to take exception to your implication that the Board ever looks at anything from other than the members' perspective.

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Then why doesn't the board DO something to support consumer advocacy? Why aren't there articles in the News about the problems with new models and what BMW is (or is NOT) doing to fix them, as well as the fixes that other folks have found (which BMW often choses to ignore)?

The BMWMOA is the single largest consumer organization in the world devoted to BMW motorcycles. The BMWMOA has a track record of ZERO action when BMW makes design engineering and/or production quality mistakes. Why is that?

Yes, I know that there is a vacant consumer advocacy position. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the MOA doesn't want a REAL consumer advocate in it. I'll take the position. I'll push BMW to be responsive to their BMWMOA constuency or else they'll see some articles in the News that contain plenty of quotes from their unhappy customers. If BMW remains unresponsive, they'll see press releases sent to the motorcycle media about the problems with various models. The only way to fix problems is to first admit they exist. BMWNA won't do that.

Apparently the BMWMOA won't do it either where the issue of TELLING BMW what is wrong with their products and PRESSURING them to give the owners some relief (when BMW fails to do it on their own) is concerned. Apparently the MOA is unaware of the leverage large consumer organizations have with their marques. That is a sad waste of consumer strength. You, the board, disappoint me. Somewhere on this forum is a post from a board member saying "Consumer advocacy is not in our charter... if you want to start your own club, go ahead." That certainly was not written from the "member's perspective" from which you seem to believe the board views the world.

Imagine how long it would have taken to fix surging if the MOA had been vocal about it, both to BMW and in the press. Sales would have tanked until it was fixed. The way things went, it took a DECADE. We can thank "the Board ever looks at anything from other than the members' perspective". Nope. You're not fooling me or any of the other members even if you are fooling yourself.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Method for re-purposing Forum contributions

flash412 said:

Why aren't there articles in the News about the problems with new models and what BMW is (or is NOT) doing to fix them, as well as the fixes that other folks have found (which BMW often choses to ignore)?

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Those types of articles are published--when they are submitted. Are you volunteering to do the research and write an article?

Michael

Dirty Laundry

M. Cohen said:

Those types of articles are published--when they are submitted. Are you volunteering to do the research and write an article?

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Well, we seem to have a bit of a problem here. You see, I wrote the original F650 FAQ on FAQ.F650.com. When the call went out for a moderator for the F650 Tech Forum on this site, I was warmly welcomed.

Two days ago I noticed that I have been unceremoniously removed from that position and replaced by Rob Nye. This was a shock to both he and I since whoever was responsible for that act is too cowardly to email either of us about it. Right now I think the MOA is run by a bunch of cowards. The folks running this site have nuked some posts of mine without contacting me because they didn't like the content. The first amendment to the United States Constitution does not apply here. My post wasn't profane, just HIGHLY uncomplimentary and insulting toward the marque.

It is also my understanding that in a multi-hour sit-down between the BMWMOA and BMWNA, the ONLY action item was for BMWMOA to get the word out that owners are supposed to tell BMWNA when they buy or sell a bike so that BMW can keep up with whom to contact in the event of a recall. If that isn't running stuff the WRONG WAY in the pipe, I don't know what is.

I put my money where my mouth is. When the MOA board of directors starts doing something FOR the OWNERS rather than just being a mouthpiece for the BMW marketing department, I'll consider becoming more active in this organization (as well as in the Chain Gang where I am very active). But so far my attempts at being active here have been met with resistance from those who wield the power here to delete things they don't like. Meanwhile, anyone with any issues with an F650 can get the straight poop, including information on how to pursuade BMW to buy back a lemon, from http://www.f650.com. (Would the BMWMOA ever even consider an article on how to deal with a lemon and how to get BMW to buy it back?)

You ask if I am volunteering to do research to write an article. The reasearch has already been done and the FAQ has been written and posted. The real question is, when is the MOA going to confront BMWNA or BMW AG and apply pressure to pursuade THEM to address that problem (and others)?

Personally, I don't have to worry about surging and stalling. My BMWs were either built back in the olden days when BMW had a bigger engineering department than marketing department, or else were designed and built by Aprilia in Italy.

Tell you what... you have whoever deleted my posts issue a public apology for that public act and have whoever nuked me from being the F650 tech forum moderator issue a similar apology and I will write the article for you. I'm not asking for the posts to be replaced or to be reinstated. I just want the MOA to show a little tiny bit of courage. That seems fair to me. Heck... I'll even do it if I receive a private apology. People are either man enough to stand behind what they do or else they are not. I am. Is the BMWMOA? Right now, I have only seen evidence to the contrary. Prove me wrong. (I'm not going to hold my breath.) Mike, if you DO have the gumption to stand behind your convictions, unlike others in this organization, how many words do you want for my first article, "Surging and Stalling in the F650 - History, Denial and Cures"? Frankly, I don't believe the BMWMOA has the balls to print it anyway, even if you do what it takes to get me to write it. The people running this show have disappointed me that much.

"It takes a grain of sand to encourage an oyster to produce a pearl.'

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Method for re-purposing Forum contributions

Flash,
You seem to have everything negative and nothing positive to say about either BMW or the BMW MOA. You have a right to your opinion, but IÔÇÖve never seen an instance of someone taking this kind of extreme position who really cared about resolving issues. In which case there is no chance of really dealing with the questions or changes they raise, since thatÔÇÖ really not their point. If that does not apply to you, then IÔÇÖd be the first to meet you half way.

However, there are any number of others who stumble into a thread like this and who only know what they see posted. For their benefit IÔÇÖm going to address several of your comments. IÔÇÖve clipped parts of two of your posts to try and tie things together.


flash412:
"Then why doesn't the board DO something to support consumer advocacy? Why aren't there articles in the News about the problems with new models and what BMW is (or is NOT) doing to fix them, as well as the fixes that other folks have found (which BMW often choses to ignore)? "

Well, in the first instance because the ON can only print whatÔÇÖs submitted by members. There are no staff writers. Secondly, we already do have a Consumer Advocate position.


flash412:
"Yes, I know that there is a vacant consumer advocacy position. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the MOA doesn't want a REAL consumer advocate in it. I'll take the position. I'll push BMW to be responsive to their BMWMOA constuency or else they'll see some articles in the News that contain plenty of quotes from their unhappy customers. If BMW remains unresponsive, they'll see press releases sent to the motorcycle media about the problems with various models. The only way to fix problems is to first admit they exist. BMWNA won't do that."

You are confusing advocate with adversary. Is this your idea of how to get things done ÔÇô to push and threaten and intimidate? Wow, you must have a very impressive background in negotiation, no?

Further, you have totally discounted the current approach used by our Consumer Advocate position. Each case is researched and based on itÔÇÖs own merit and an attempt is made to mediate between the two parties. This approach intentionally focus on the facts and avoids the ÔÇ£he said, she saidÔÇØ game that no one ever wins.

In an earlier post you disparaged the integrity of the BMW MOA by suggesting we would not pursue a complaint against an advertiser. That is a totally untrue statement, and you have absolutely no basis on which to make such a charge. Dude, you should be ashamed.



flash412:
"You, the board, disappoint me. Somewhere on this forum is a post from a board member saying "Consumer advocacy is not in our charter... if you want to start your own club, go ahead." That certainly was not written from the "member's perspective" from which you seem to believe the board views the world."

"Nope. You're not fooling me or any of the other members even if you are fooling yourself."


Damn, and I so wanted to pull the wool over your eyes. Whether you like it or not (apparently not) it really ISNÔÇÖT our charter or mandate at this time to be the ÔÇ£BMW riderÔÇÖs labor unionÔÇØ. How this all works is actually very simple and free of all the conspiracy you seem to think exists. The Board does itÔÇÖs best to put into policy and action what it believes are the wishes of significant portions of the membership. Nothing is sacrosanct and beyond change. If there is a widespread desire for an action that will at the same time not alienate an equally large portion of the membership, then it will be examined and implemented if at all possible. Simple as that. You donÔÇÖt seem to have a mandate and are making up for that lack with unfounded accusations against the very people who are taking their personal, uncompensated time, to hear you out. How well would that work with you if the tables were turned?

But, letÔÇÖs talk about your ideas for a minute in a general sense. To support anything like what you are talking about would require a large and well coordinated effort. We would need facts ÔÇô not personal opinions or antidotal stories gleaned off the web. Exactly how many of what kind of failure are happing under what conditions, and who did and didnÔÇÖt get things resolved with their dealer, etc, etc, etc. Secondly, weÔÇÖd need a criteria to determine what constitutes an ÔÇ£issue.ÔÇØ Would rear drive failures? Sure itÔÇÖs serious, but is it cronic?. Would surging? Maybe, maybe not. It doesnÔÇÖt happen to everyone, and not to the same degree. And, of those a good number seem to be cured by nothing more than a good tune up and throttle body sync.

You seem to think there are many serious and chronic problems with BMWs that just arenÔÇÖt being resolved. Maybe, and maybe not. If so, they are not alone. Honda had a large number of the 1800cc Gold Wings with broken frames. And, they at first refused to do any more than swap out for a new frame. Harley is reportedly still having twin cam 88 engines with catastrophic cam bearing failures. This has been going on for years and Harley still refuses to take pre-emptive corrective action. Compared to these kinds of problems do you still think surging is justification for hanging BMW from the old oak tree? Point is, even if you do, not everyone aggress with you. And, that, my friend is at the heart of everything IÔÇÖve seen you post. If someone doesnÔÇÖt agree with you they arenÔÇÖt just expressing their own and different opinion ÔÇô they are just WRONG.


flash412:
"I put my money where my mouth is. When the MOA board of directors starts doing something FOR the OWNERS rather than just being a mouthpiece for the BMW marketing department, I'll consider becoming more active in this organization (as well as in the Chain Gang where I am very active)."

See, here you go again calling names. This goes beyond just being a matter of opinion, itÔÇÖs factually wrong and you ÔÇô again ÔÇô should be ashamed.

flash412:
"It takes a grain of sand to encourage an oyster to produce a pearl."

Maybe, but methinks you are trying to shove in the whole damned beach. Like I said in my opening, if you really want to solve problems IÔÇÖll work with you, But, youÔÇÖre going to have to change your style, because everything you say and how you say it looks like you just want to start a fight instead. I donÔÇÖ t have time for that, and neither will most. The fact is that itÔÇÖs a very small number of people who volunteer their time to turn the daily wheels of the BMW MOA, and all are hard working and well intended in my experience. They could be out riding or enjoying any of a number of other pursuits, but instead they cheat themselves for the benefit of their fellow riders and club members. Then here you come kicking sand and calling names. Nice. To quote Dr. Phil, ÔÇ£So, howÔÇÖs that been working for you?ÔÇØ IÔÇÖd guess not well.

I hope this has shed some light for others ÔÇô hopefully enough to dispel the heat.

Re: Dirty Laundry

flash412 said:

(Would the BMWMOA ever even consider an article on how to deal with a lemon and how to get BMW to buy it back?)

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Yes.

BMW ON would publish any article critical of BMW assuming it was based in fact. If anyone has an article or idea for an article I suggest contacting the Editor. The magazine is volunteer driven and only what you make of it.

You ask if I am volunteering to do research to write an article. The reasearch has already been done and the FAQ has been written and posted. The real question is, when is the MOA going to confront BMWNA or BMW AG and apply pressure to pursuade THEM to address that problem (and others)?

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In other words, no, you won't write any article. So, the next time you feel the urge to write "the BMW ON never writes about [fill in the blank]" you'll have your answer.

Tell you what... you have whoever deleted my posts issue a public apology for that public act and have whoever nuked me from being the F650 tech forum moderator issue a similar apology and I will write the article for you.

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I have no connection to, or sway with, the moderators of this forum. If the unfounded accusations and name calling in a couple of posts I've read are any indication, I'm sure they had good reasons to remove your posts (the First Amendment has limits you fail to grasp). It's obvious you should be the one apologizing.

People are either man enough to stand behind what they do or else they are not. I am.

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Michael

Re: Re: Re: Re: ad nausium

Well said, Greg.

I've read several of Flash's rants over the past few months and I agree... I don't see that he has any plan for resolving anything, I think he just wants to start a fight.

Isn't it time this entire thread was retired to the dog house?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ad nausium

JetDoc said:

Well said, Greg.

I've read several of Flash's rants over the past few months and I agree... I don't see that he has any plan for resolving anything, I think he just wants to start a fight.

Isn't it time this entire thread was retired to the dog house?

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there is a good argument to be made that we should have a little section of the website carved out for flash to rant, but not do anything.

if you want it in the doghouse, you have to do some name calling or cursing, a--hole!

(sorry, i dont really mean that at all, but it was too hard to resist! for some reason, i find that super funny. )

in all seriousness, this is a decent thread. it was an open call, so it should be expected that there would be a huge range of suggestions. im surprised no one asked for free webmail or something like that.

how about more smilies for these messages?

hopefully everyone understands that this is likely to be an evolution, not a revolution, of the website. ian has a number of really good ideas, but many may not be suited in scope or scale for a non-profit, volunteer-run, riding enthusiast site. but they reveal things to us on a higher level of sorts, of how to really leverage information and web content.

ultimately our super cool volunteers will have to make a list, break it up into digestible chunks, and then distribute the work to the poor folks living in the north and not riding during winter. the site will get better, it just won't happen *now.*

im patient and optimistic.

How to Fix It - Part One

Originally posted by Greg Feeler: You seem to have everything negative and nothing positive to say about either BMW or the BMW MOA.

Based on what's happened lately, that might be an accurate statement.

You have a right to your opinion, but IÔÇÖve never seen an instance of someone taking this kind of extreme position who really cared about resolving issues. In which case there is no chance of really dealing with the questions or changes they raise, since thatÔÇÖ really not their point. If that does not apply to you, then IÔÇÖd be the first to meet you half way.

You may not have noticed, but I am working very hard to help an organization I have belonged to for about thirty years change and grow up. I have passion for BMW motorcycles. It's the company that makes them that needs some help. They've become like an alcoholic that needs an intervention. They need to start to listen to and interact with their customers.

Whether you agree with them or not, opinions should not be nuked. Can we agree on that?

However, there are any number of others who stumble into a thread like this and who only know what they see posted. For their benefit IÔÇÖm going to address several of your comments. IÔÇÖve clipped parts of two of your posts to try and tie things together.


flash412:
"Then why doesn't the board DO something to support consumer advocacy? Why aren't there articles in the News about the problems with new models and what BMW is (or is NOT) doing to fix them, as well as the fixes that other folks have found (which BMW often choses to ignore)? "

Well, in the first instance because the ON can only print whatÔÇÖs submitted by members. There are no staff writers. Secondly, we already do have a Consumer Advocate position.

What does that position DO? What have they DONE?

flash412:
"Yes, I know that there is a vacant consumer advocacy position. I'd bet a dollar to a donut that the MOA doesn't want a REAL consumer advocate in it. I'll take the position. I'll push BMW to be responsive to their BMWMOA constuency or else they'll see some articles in the News that contain plenty of quotes from their unhappy customers. If BMW remains unresponsive, they'll see press releases sent to the motorcycle media about the problems with various models. The only way to fix problems is to first admit they exist. BMWNA won't do that."

You are confusing advocate with adversary. Is this your idea of how to get things done ÔÇô to push and threaten and intimidate? Wow, you must have a very impressive background in negotiation, no?

Actually, for several years a part of my job was international negotiation. I saved my employer millions of dollars while in that position. There comes a time when the folks across the table refuse to listen or act, when the carrot doesn't work, when you are trying to work with an ostrich, that yes, some pretty outrageous behavior becomes a very effective tool to get the negotiations moving once again. My point is... I have your attention now, don't I? You are no longer staring at your navel, complacent.

Further, you have totally discounted the current approach used by our Consumer Advocate position. Each case is researched and based on itÔÇÖs own merit and an attempt is made to mediate between the two parties. This approach intentionally focus on the facts and avoids the ÔÇ£he said, she saidÔÇØ game that no one ever wins.

You lost me here. I've seen all sorts of reports of burnt up rear ends on nearly new bikes. That isn't a "he said, she said" game. That is a class issue or fault. Why hasn't BMW stepped up to the plate? Why hasn't the MOA Consumer Advocate taken it to Montvale, or Munich? Why hasn't it been mentioned in the MOA News? The same question holds for surging and stalling. Please don't try to tell me that you have never heard of either of these issues. They're written about in the motorcycle press.

In an earlier post you disparaged the integrity of the BMW MOA by suggesting we would not pursue a complaint against an advertiser. That is a totally untrue statement, and you have absolutely no basis on which to make such a charge. Dude, you should be ashamed.

Dude, I'm pretty sure that you have me confused with someone else in that thread. If you can't point to what I said, and if I didn't say what you claim I said, then YOU should be ashamed. Otherwise, you're right.

flash412:
"You, the board, disappoint me. Somewhere on this forum is a post from a board member saying "Consumer advocacy is not in our charter... if you want to start your own club, go ahead." That certainly was not written from the "member's perspective" from which you seem to believe the board views the world."

"Nope. You're not fooling me or any of the other members even if you are fooling yourself."


Damn, and I so wanted to pull the wool over your eyes. Whether you like it or not (apparently not) it really ISNÔÇÖT our charter or mandate at this time to be the ÔÇ£BMW riderÔÇÖs labor unionÔÇØ. How this all works is actually very simple and free of all the conspiracy you seem to think exists.

That's just hyperbole. We'll just let it pass.

The Board does itÔÇÖs best to put into policy and action what it believes are the wishes of significant portions of the membership.

So I guess the question is, does the board NOT think that the membership would like the board to take class issues, safety issues like surging and stalling and failing rear ends to BMW to ask what is being done to fix these problems? The answer many folks seem to get from BMW's customer service line is "User error. Your fault."

Nothing is sacrosanct and beyond change. If there is a widespread desire for an action that will at the same time not alienate an equally large portion of the membership, then it will be examined and implemented if at all possible. Simple as that. You donÔÇÖt seem to have a mandate and are making up for that lack with unfounded accusations against the very people who are taking their personal, uncompensated time, to hear you out. How well would that work with you if the tables were turned?

Gee... if I ran the circus, here is what I would do... since the BMW Owner's News is mailed to each and every one of the members each and every month, I think that rather than put in a tear out for the store one month, I would include a survey. I would mention the survey in an editorial and hopefully a significant segment of the members would decide to tear it out, fill it out, stick their own stamp on it and mail it back. I'd be sure to put some open-ended questions on the survey about what the members want. Then about six or eight weeks after the ON had been mailed to the members, I would take the big box of surveys and hire some keypunch operator or operators for a day or three to tabulate the results. Then I would sit down and read them.

What does the board do to figure out what the members want now? If there was a survey, then I guess I just plain missed it.

(Ran out of space. Continued in another post.)

How to Fix It - Part Two

(Continued from Part One) Originally posted by Greg Feeler: But, letÔÇÖs talk about your ideas for a minute in a general sense. To support anything like what you are talking about would require a large and well coordinated effort. We would need facts ÔÇô not personal opinions or antidotal stories gleaned off the web. Exactly how many of what kind of failure are happing under what conditions, and who did and didnÔÇÖt get things resolved with their dealer, etc, etc, etc. Secondly, weÔÇÖd need a criteria to determine what constitutes an ÔÇ£issue.ÔÇØ Would rear drive failures? Sure itÔÇÖs serious, but is it cronic?. Would surging? Maybe, maybe not. It doesnÔÇÖt happen to everyone, and not to the same degree. And, of those a good number seem to be cured by nothing more than a good tune up and throttle body sync.

You know that if it was your bike that suddenly had the rear wheel come loose on the freeway, you'd think that it was pretty darned serious. You know that if it was your bike that stalled right as you were pulling across a main thoroughfare from a stop sign, you'd think it was pretty serious.

Ok... so just what has the consumer advocate been doing if not gathering this information? What is the current process? Perhaps it should be advertised to draw attention and more input. You share the process with me and I will offer constructive ideas how to improve it. Right now, I see nothing.

You seem to think there are many serious and chronic problems with BMWs that just arenÔÇÖt being resolved. Maybe, and maybe not. If so, they are not alone. Honda had a large number of the 1800cc Gold Wings with broken frames. And, they at first refused to do any more than swap out for a new frame. Harley is reportedly still having twin cam 88 engines with catastrophic cam bearing failures. This has been going on for years and Harley still refuses to take pre-emptive corrective action. Compared to these kinds of problems do you still think surging is justification for hanging BMW from the old oak tree?

Why do BMWs surge? They surge because the fuel injection system is poorly designed and/or implemented. Why does BMW feel that it is necessary to meet air pollution standards a decade in advance at the cost of rideability and safety TODAY? Why should someone have to throw a $200 Techlusion box on there to fix it? But there are SIMPLE things, like projected tip spark plugs and irridium plugs and burning CHEAP regular fuel rather than the premium fuel that BMW "requires." Why aren't these silly, simple, CHEAP, and often extremely effective fixes disseminated by BMW to their dealers?

Point is, even if you do, not everyone aggress with you. And, that, my friend is at the heart of everything IÔÇÖve seen you post. If someone doesnÔÇÖt agree with you they arenÔÇÖt just expressing their own and different opinion ÔÇô they are just WRONG.

I have yet to hear from someone who fixed a surging, stalling F650 with a $3 projected tip spark plug and regular gas that had languished for weeks at the dealer to no avail disagree when I suggest that BMW needs to change.

But so what. You said that I view someone who doesn't agree with me as just plain wrong. Often that is the case, when I am sure of my position. But I do have an open mind and will consider any evidence or argument. However don't forget how people react when talking about politics and religion. There are those who will not, cannot, ever consider even another opinion. Unlike many such people, my convictions are strong. But my convictions will certainly bow to logic. It is very hard to hold a conversation with someone who will not even listen to and consider a logical argument. That would be BMWNA. That would be BMW AG. Have you ever heard of a BMW customer focus group? I have not.

flash412:
"I put my money where my mouth is. When the MOA board of directors starts doing something FOR the OWNERS rather than just being a mouthpiece for the BMW marketing department, I'll consider becoming more active in this organization (as well as in the Chain Gang where I am very active)."

See, here you go again calling names. This goes beyond just being a matter of opinion, itÔÇÖs factually wrong and you ÔÇô again ÔÇô should be ashamed.

What I see in the Owners News are not generally honest assements of BMW products. They're the best thing ever made, nothing is wrong with them and they're worth paying three times the money of similar products.

The MOA isn't in business to sell BMW products. The MOA is in business to give the members information. That should include information on BMW's competition, especially if the competition has a better product. How about an article on a Ducati Multistrada and a KTM 950 Adventure VERSUS the R1200GS? Yes, everyone will know that it is a biased shootout, but at least the attempt at comparison speaks toward pointing out where BMW needs to improve their models versus their competition.

I know all about volunteering. I've done WAY more than my share for the Chain Gang. So I feel at least qualified to talk about the volunteer board not doing enough for the membership.

What I see is disappointing. Tens of thousands of owners behind you and you can't PUSH BMW to do anything? Nothing? There is a power in the numbers of the membership that is completely unrecognized by the board. That is disappointing. The BMWMOA does not exist to serve BMW. BMW exists to serve the BMWMOA. The BMWMOA membership is who buys the bikes. WE have the money. BMW wants our money. They will listen to our owners association. It is too bad that the leaders of our owners association have not figured that out, or else have no idea what to say.

flash412:
"It takes a grain of sand to encourage an oyster to produce a pearl."

Maybe, but methinks you are trying to shove in the whole damned beach. Like I said in my opening, if you really want to solve problems IÔÇÖll work with you, But, youÔÇÖre going to have to change your style, because everything you say and how you say it looks like you just want to start a fight instead. I donÔÇÖ t have time for that, and neither will most.

Here I am being kinder and gentler, again. The last time I tried being kinder and gentler, some (I would put a few choice words in here, but I am being kind and gentle) person unceremoniously removed me from the one position in this club for which I am eminently qualified. Let's see if you are willing to work for change for the good of the club. I keep on trying, no matter what.

The fact is that itÔÇÖs a very small number of people who volunteer their time to turn the daily wheels of the BMW MOA, and all are hard working and well intended in my experience. They could be out riding or enjoying any of a number of other pursuits, but instead they cheat themselves for the benefit of their fellow riders and club members. Then here you come kicking sand and calling names. Nice. To quote Dr. Phil, ÔÇ£So, howÔÇÖs that been working for you?ÔÇØ IÔÇÖd guess not well.

Funny... it seems that pitching a fit gets more folks off the dime here than being kind and gentle. When rants and name calling get more results than being mellow, you can bet your last dime that the tactic that works is the one I will use. Who takes responsiblity for that, Dr. Phil?

If you want to see what I can do and have done for a club, pop over to WWW.F650.com. Take a look at the FAQ, order and watch the free DVDs, download the free maintenance log and schematic diagram. Don't begin to preach to me about volunteering. Then ask yourself why the BMWMOA doesn't have a comprehensive FAQ like that. Ask yourself why the BMWMOA doesn't have free documentation and free maintenance and repair videos available. Ask yourself why and if you find an answer, please let me know. I have my own ideas as to why. There are a whole lot fewer members in the Chain Gang than in the MOA.

I hope this has shed some light for others ÔÇô hopefully enough to dispel the heat.

Agreed, 100%.

Rob and I ditched your mod status after we got tired of listening to you complain about the MOA in 90% of your posts. We didn't think the moderator should go on and on and on about how awful BMW motorcycles are, tell people not to purchase them and then dump on the organization that runs the site that moderator is on.

There ya go. Call us what you'd like.

You wanna help? Mike Cohen and Feeler have encouraged you to write something about the problems you mention. There's your avenue. Do something constructive instead of bitching about it if you feel so strongly.

You've got polling tools available here to gather your information. Knock yourself out. Nothing builds a case like statistical modeling. If you want to garner more votes on the polls, write a letter to ON and get Sandy to publish it. The tools are here, flash, and if you feel strongly, take advantage of them to make your case.

And finally, since you're dumping on the Consumer Advocate, you may want to know that it was held by Rob Lentini, who recently died of cancer after a fairly lengthy illness. Rob, as you may recall, is the guy who invented the 0=0 procedure to deal with oilhead surging, pioneered the use of Autolite 3923 plugs and contributed heavily to the understanding of Kbikes and then oilheads. He contributed in a positive fashion, which is anathema to what we've seen from you here.

Since you brought it up

Originally posted by flash412 Here I am being kinder and gentler, again. The last time I tried being kinder and gentler, some (I would put a few choice words in here, but I am being kind and gentle) person unceremoniously removed me from the one position in this club for which I am eminently qualified. Let's see if you are willing to work for change for the good of the club. I keep on trying, no matter what.

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Greetings,

An epic thread hi-jack indeed.

As we discussed earlier this week I was a bit in the weeds over getting back to you. I wanted to be able to provide a time line which requires some time to construct. Since you brought it up here I will boil it down now.

Sometime before you left for your big trip there was just one more episode of flash against the world. I honestly don't remember which thread it was but once again we were getting the "alert a moderator to this post" messages as this thread is now generating.

I have listened to your concerns and I do agree that folks at the sharp end are necessary as a check and balance. Because of your participation there will be some specific questions in the upcoming survey and the board is talking about you and your issues. You do have many valuable contributions both for tech and issues of how we manage the MOA, however you also have such a strong agenda that you can not help but force it at every opportunity.

Right now we are having this discussion in a thread that stared with a request from the C&M chair on website content ideas. It appears to have morphed into bash the world, or an extension of your crusade to use the 'MOA as an axe for your ongoing issues with BMW.

The consumer liaison post was started by Rob Lentini. As Dave pointed out his credentials were absolutely unimpeachable as a rider, wrench and especially as a human. The idea behind having a consumer liaison was not to collect information on rear drive failures but to assist members on a one-on-one basis. A perfect example would be a new rider who recently purchased an oilhead. He is reading all he can to learn about his new bike and he reads much about surging. He thinks about his own machine, how it runs and thinks he has this surging problem. His dealer gives him the "they all do that" line. Rob would spend the time with him to explain the issue of surging and offer advice on how to communicate with the dealer. If still frustrated Rob would help the rider bring his problem to the attention of NA. Rob was very good at this and most problems were resolved at the dealer level.

It takes a person such as Rob to be in a job like this or to be a moderator of our forums. It does not take an overwhelming expertise on the topic, in fact the moderatorÔÇÖs role is not to insure accuracy, it is to make sure that the basic rules of the forums are followed. I hope you understand that when a moderator is constantly at the root of these "alert a moderator" messages someone has to take a close look.

Back to the issue at hand the problem is that you have but one tool in your box and that is a big hammer coupled with a single issue agenda. Regardless of the topic you swing away, often with less than favorable results. To be a part of the member service (which is really what moderators do) team and at the same time constantly bash the marque and the officers and volunteers of the 'MOA is obviously not working out. You are confusing eminently qualified as a technical guru as qualified to be a moderator.

I would also like to address your negative comments about the current board, specifically that we are not interested in feedback or hearing what the members want.

Two years ago you did not have this forum. If you wanted to communicate with the board or another member you could submit a letter to the editor. If it was composed along the lines of your stuff here there is no surprise that it would not be published. Now you have a vehicle to share your opinions and communicate directly with your fellow members. The board supports and participates in this forum, in fact you have recently had direct commentary with the president, secretary and two directors one of which is the chair of the communications and marketing committee. As mentioned previously your issues are being addressed through the survey and discussion.

In addition to the forum we also invite members to attend our quarterly board meeting in St. Louis. We always make sure there is ample opportunity to discuss new business. I think that if you are really serious about being an agent of change you may have a better chance of success joining us face to face rather than hi-jack every possible thread.