For consideration by the board.

Holly said:

Hagar the Horrible

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Great comic!

Hey, mods - is this comic verboten?

Manfred said:

Regarding politics - people talking about, talking up, a socialist government program (whether it be Cash-for-Clunkers or Social Security) are political discussions. Such discussions are accepted. Unless someone crosses a line that is not defined anywhere - such as bringing up the Constitutional limits on the federal government.

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The Cash for Clunkers thread is closed, and should have been closed much sooner. However, I only got back from the two national rallies Friday night, and I've been catching up with things at home since then.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Discussing the constitutional limits of the (US) federal government is politics and not allowed, unless there is a specific connection to motorcycling, BMWs or the MOA. Even then, the discussion must be, and stay, focused on the motorcycle aspect and not on parties, people and other topics.

As it currently established, the forum is a mine field on these verboten topics. Some discussion is OK, some is not. We all play "blind's man bluff" in finding where the lines are drawn. That's no way to run a pay-for-play forum.

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When someone innocently runs up against one of these "undefined" areas, they first get a warning. After that, they get an infraction and some points, but if they take a hint, they will stay away from the topic and the points will fade away. If you read the Posting Guidelines section of the FAQ (the link to which is at the top of every forum page), you'll see that people get several chances and then they get a temporary ban, but only if they keep on hitting the banned topics quickly enough.

The whole idea of the system is to allow some flexibility. So far as I can recall, there are 4 or 5 people who have been perma banned from the forums, and two were for SPAM. Considering that thousands visit the forum each day, that makes the odds of innocently straying into verboten topics rather low.

Manfred said:

Hey, mods - is this comic verboten?

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It's not political or religious discussion, it's discussion about political and religious discussion. It's like Godwin's Law. Meta discussion is ok by me.

DarrylRi said:

It's not political or religious discussion, it's discussion about political and religious discussion. It's like Godwin's Law. Meta discussion is ok by me.

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Hence an appropriate illustration of the problem with current rules: Religion and politics are forbidden, not the discussion of such. Yet a comic that mentions both of them is OK. How is your exception for "meta discussion" permitted under the rules?

FWIW, Godwin's Law emerges when people do not stick to issues and get personal. Flatly forbidding the issues is akin to the stupid government school "zero tolerance" policies that arrest students for carrying aspirin or "shooting" a schoolmate with a banana.

Under what special dispensation is my tag line permissible?

Manfred said:

As it currently established, the forum is a mine field on these verboten topics. Some discussion is OK, some is not. We all play "blind's man bluff" in finding where the lines are drawn. That's no way to run a pay-for-play forum.

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It isn't a mine field. It's a cotton ball field. You keep talking about this as though it really really matters. It doesn't. It's a motorcycle forum built for social purposes. No one is going to be hurt or injured or saved or damned by what happens here. Asking for inflexible rules defies this reality.

As to Yoga, this is about to become a religious conversation about respecting faith and not proselytizing. Suffice it to say that I could care less what some guru in India or what some fundamentalist website thinks about my urge get a little more limber. Keep your meridians and gospels to yourself.

Off to battle the demons living in my toilet...(damned sewer line is having issues)

DarrylRi said:

The whole idea of the system is to allow some flexibility. So far as I can recall, there are 4 or 5 people who have been perma banned from the forums, and two were for SPAM. Considering that thousands visit the forum each day, that makes the odds of innocently straying into verboten topics rather low.

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And it should be noted that those few banned come from across the political spectrum. Out of registered users, we're at about .01% banned. 99.9% of users are navigating these waters without much issue.

Manfred said:

Hence an appropriate illustration of the problem with current rules: Religion and politics are forbidden, not the discussion of such. Yet a comic that mentions both of them is OK. How is your exception for "meta discussion" permitted under the rules?

FWIW, Godwin's Law emerges when people do not stick to issues and get personal. Flatly forbidding the issues is akin to the stupid government school "zero tolerance" policies that arrest students for carrying aspirin or "shooting" a schoolmate with a banana.

Under what special dispensation is my tag line permissible?

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I have to wonder, given that you have publicly stated that you are leaving when your membership expires, why you continue to want to try to make changes. If this forum is not for you, then just don't participate.

It is similar to the helmet ads that have some people's panties all tied up in a knot. They seem to be unable to turn the page when, in fact, most readers don't even notice the ad.

We had a member who resigned because the ON printed a trip report to Iran. Somehow thought that publishing the trip report supported the Iranian government. Another poster here was sure that by advertising a tour of South America that traveled the route of Che that we were supporting some type of terrorism.

Lots of folks in the US who practice yoga without an of the religious trappings. Are they evil for doing so? I don't think so.

My last post on this thread so your response can be the last word.

Time for me to mosey along and read about the Salty Fog Rally.

Manfred said:

Under what special dispensation is my tag line permissible?

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I have personally considered your sig line and it's appropriateness to the forum. In my view, it's a quote from a book. If someone wanted to post a Bush or Obama quote, that's fine as well... for the most part. I don't find a Bible quote to be specifically pushing religion on anyone. Another user could just as well quote any other religious text. That being said, any quote that is specifically offensive, even from people or texts previously mentioned, would still merit a friendly PM asking for it's removal. If you like, I'll be happy to send you a note asking you to change your sig line if you dislike the latitude provided. Nothing is going to be "black and white", else we would be spending all our time writing very specific rules about everything and no time talking about motorcycles, motorcycle trips, motorcycle gear, and so on. That's the primary reason we're here, isn't it?

Manfred said:

Certainly the rationale is there, but it lacks any definition of what is considered religious or political. This leads to much subjective enforcement of these "no tolerance" rules.

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It's like when the Supreme Court was trying to define obscenity. One of the justices, I forget which, said "I can't properly describe obscenity, but I know it when I see it."

Manfred, we've arrived at our current status with regard to those discussion after about three years of tuning. We had a forum devoted to those topics, but it was difficult to manage and was closed. We had a period without such an outlet, but a proposal by members was submitted and the team that runs the forum (not the board) built Tavern on the Screen. It too turned into a difficult forum to manage (most due to time demands), so it was turned off by the folks that implemented it (not the board).

The Forum Team feels that they're currently in a space where they can manage the forum content without having to be on board 24/7.

The difficulty with imposing a strict set of "what's permissible, what's not" rules is that there will always be exceptions to those rules. By allowing the forum team some latitude, we allow them to deal with exceptions.

Finally, it's probably useful to explain how the forum is managed. A couple years ago, the board determined that they needed to be hands off on the forum. The forum provides means for members to talk with members directly and as such, should be managed by members, not the board. Since then, we've seen terrific growth in the number of participants on the forum, as well as the kind of content we see here. This has come about not through the board's actions, but through the actions of the members that manage the forum. They've built a safe place where all participants are treated with equal respect. They have a set of guidelines that seem to work. We no longer have contentious conversations where people are haranguing each other, nor are we seeing constant accusations that the board is playing favorites or something. The forum is member run, top to bottom and it should stay that way.

If you think you can sway the opinions of the moderatoration and admin team, by all means, go for it. But they are the ones that will make the decisions and the board will stand behind their decision.

Best regards, ride safely,

Dave

Dave Swider
BMW MOA President

SIBUD said:

I have to wonder, given that you have publicly stated that you are leaving when your membership expires, why you continue to want to try to make changes. If this forum is not for you, then just don't participate.

It is similar to the helmet ads that have some people's panties all tied up in a knot. They seem to be unable to turn the page when, in fact, most readers don't even notice the ad.

We had a member who resigned because the ON printed a trip report to Iran. Somehow thought that publishing the trip report supported the Iranian government. Another poster here was sure that by advertising a tour of South America that traveled the route of Che that we were supporting some type of terrorism.

Lots of folks in the US who practice yoga without an of the religious trappings. Are they evil for doing so? I don't think so.

My last post on this thread so your response can be the last word.

Time for me to mosey along and read about the Salty Fog Rally.

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Until my money runs out, I'm a paid-up member and intend to "get my money's worth". Part of that is to pursue what I see as improvements to the organization.

Regarding those who practice yoga mindlessly, they are exactly where the gurus want them. Proceed at your own spiritual risk, snarky replies from knary notwithstanding.

Manfred said:

Thanks for the kind note. I care not adventure riding and am not looking for a platform. But where ever I am, I am compelled to speak Truth when it seems right and if this place can't accept any religion or politics except as they define it off the record and enforce it likewise, then I will do without being a member here once my year runs its course. I joined the BMWMOA because I bought a BMW motorcycle and want to learn about it. I have been turned off toward the brand since I've been in this forum - I much rather being identified as a Yamaha owner, they simply don't make the bike I like to ride as much as I like my airhead. If my 1980 XS850 triple had better ground clearance and better gas mileage, I would still be enjoying it.

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WOWWW!! Really going to miss you.

jdmetzger said:

I have personally considered your sig line and it's appropriateness to the forum. In my view, it's a quote from a book. If someone wanted to post a Bush or Obama quote, that's fine as well... for the most part. I don't find a Bible quote to be specifically pushing religion on anyone. Another user could just as well quote any other religious text. That being said, any quote that is specifically offensive, even from people or texts previously mentioned, would still merit a friendly PM asking for it's removal. If you like, I'll be happy to send you a note asking you to change your sig line if you dislike the latitude provided. Nothing is going to be "black and white", else we would be spending all our time writing very specific rules about everything and no time talking about motorcycles, motorcycle trips, motorcycle gear, and so on. That's the primary reason we're here, isn't it?

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Then is OK if I quote part of the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution in response to something is political but not considered such (questions about a government program, for example)?

How do ya'll determine if a statement is "specifically offensive"? I was taught as a kid that taking offense is almost always initiated by the one who takes offense.

Manfred said:

Then is OK if I quote part of the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution in response to something is political but not considered such (questions about a government program, for example)?

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I'm not interested in debating theoretical situations.

The forum, as it exists today, is highly successful. The number of people utilizing the system continues to grow, and we have a very low number of situations requiring moderator attention (aside from moving threads to different areas and other such "maintenance duties"). That alone is reason enough for me to determine things are working as they should. If we can make 99% of the people happy, I see that as a success, and I'm a fan of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You are free to disagree, and you a free to move on if you feel the BMWMOA is not for you. I've been on other websites and decided they weren't for me, so I left. No hard feelings about it. I never expect the majority to bow to the will of the minority, when it comes to internet forums.

Manfred said:

Then is OK if I quote part of the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution in response to something is political but not considered such (questions about a government program, for example)?

How do ya'll determine if a statement is "specifically offensive"? I was taught as a kid that taking offense is almost always initiated by the one who takes offense.

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What is your issue? You've been given a half dozen patiently explanatory answers, yet you persist in drilling down in the most hair splitting fashion I've seen in a long, long time.

Let's be frank here, nobody here cares about your sig. Nobody cares what you believe personally. The intention is to nip conversations that begin to bring out antagonism and poor behavior in the parties involved.

If you really want to talk about guns, politics, religion and all the other short fuse topics, go here: www.advrider.com and visit Church, State and Money. All topics are available, but I have to warn you that the debaters there are smart and skilled and the unwary will be pilloried, no matter whether they're left or right on the political spectrum.

This may seem blunt or curt, but the reality is that by restricting the amount of political conversation the mods have to moderate, they're more able to devote their resources to enhancing this site in other ways.

Thanks and God Bless.

Manfred said:

Regarding those who practice yoga mindlessly, they are exactly where the gurus want them. Proceed at your own spiritual risk, snarky replies from knary notwithstanding.

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How about the yoga I practice with the robot guide on my Wii?

KBasa said:

How about the yoga I practice with the robot guide on my Wii?

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Ray Bradbury would approve.

KBasa said:

How about the yoga I practice with the robot guide on my Wii?

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It depends, do you have the girl or the guy "guide".

knary said:

It depends, do you have the girl or the guy "guide".

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The girl. She absolutely kicks my butt on the strength training. She's merciless.

KBasa said:

The girl. She absolutely kicks my butt on the strength training. She's merciless.

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You and knary off way off topic. Please start a new thread.

It seems like this thread has reached its end and is starting to wander.