wedge designer

108625 said:

Mr Honda had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing. So had Count Agusta.
Sochiro was the first with the vision to make it available to the common man.
Herr Munch bolted a car engine (NSU) into a motorcycle frame, an old american hot-rod tradition.

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And when exactly did Honda do that?
You'll have to excuse Friedel for not having the resources (or desire) to make the MUNCH Mammut something "the common man" could normally attain, these were all hand-built motorcycles, very exclusive and for the most part made to order.

Yes the Munch engine started out as an air-cooled NSU Prinz TTS engine, but required a lot of reworking and new castings to make it work. Not exactly like a hot rodder putting a 327 Chevy into a 32 Ford coupe, or an American V8 into a Boss Hoss. A lot of thought and engineering went in to those cycles, he is a true craftsman and engineer, not some cobbler.

Gilly

Take it easy there Gilly.

I'm talking about concept, not execution. Car engines in motorcycles go back as far as flathead Ford V8s in Indian four frames, and it does require ingenuity to make it happen. The Munch Mammut was indeed a low production, "exclusive" machine. It was also in the same spirit of any "bigger is better" hot rod.
Speaking as a hot rodder myself, I could just as easily be offended by your suggestion we're a bunch of cobblers.
The Honda CB750 went from concept to production in less than a year, making it's debut in 1968 as a 1969 model. A stunning accomplishment, and an admirable one as well, I'd say. Four cylinders, five speeds, electric start, and a hydraulic disc brake, in an affordable, reliable package.
Speaking as a CB750 owner and a "common man" I appreciate Mr Honda's attitude toward what should be within my reach.
It was a lot like Mr Ford's.

Well when you said Munch "bolted a car engine into a motorcycle frame", the vision I had is that you thought it was just "that easy". It CAN be, but in this case the NSU engine is really just a core component (and a heavily modified core at that), had some pretty fancy magnesium castings to design, etc.

I didn't mean to infer that all hot rodders are cobblers, I also think the statement I made is being taken out of context.

And I also maintain that if Honda hadn't seen the Munch Mammut at the cycle show in Cologne that the developement of the Honda SOHC 4 would not have happened for several years later.

Gilly

Mr Honda had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing. So had Count Agusta.

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I'm talking about concept, not execution.

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Sooooo, you mean "in their minds" they had already campaigned inline multi's in GP racing????

I meant concept not execution in regards to Munch and the car engined-bike.
Honda built an inline six cylinder GP bike in 1966:
http://world.honda.com/collection-hall/2rrace/rc166_1966.html
Mike hailwood raced this four cylinder Honda in '67.

OK, so now you're talking prototypes and race bikes again, vs bikes for "the common man".
Munch was sort of in the middle, they WERE available to the public but very exclusive. Although comparing to todays market I would say somewhat less exclusive than a MTT Turbine bike for example. You didn't exactly have to be Howard Hughes (or Jay Leno) to afford one, but it sure didn't hurt! Not for the common man unless the common man was an unmarried rocket scientist.

The first Munch was debuted to the puplic in February 1966 ( this was a prototype) and in September 1966 the Munch Mammut #1 was showed
in Cologne at the bike show.
The first Munchs were sold in November/December 1966.
As far as a production Honda if I am not mistaken the CB750 was first transverse 4 in 1969.
And there were others, besides Honda, with transverse 4 engines. It's just that Friedel was first with a production transverse 4 available to the public. MV Agusta had one to show (600cc) in 1965 but not for sale til 67.

For the real first I believe it would be in the 50s, Gilera or NSU?

So I would like to say the first transverse 4 cylinder roadbike which was sold to the puplic was the Munch.

Gilly

Is there a pic of that Honda 6 (engine, sorry) on the net anywhere? I found a soundclip of it, sounds pretty cool. Not as cool as a Munch though, those things sound wicked!

Here you go.

and here:

My apologies to all for derailing the thread; I never suggested Munch wasn't first, just that Soichiro Honda visualized a big multi for the masses and made it happen.
The rest is history.

The "hot rodder" in the first picture I posted was E.J. Potter, the "Michigan Madman" or "THe Motor City Madman" long before Ted Nugent stole the title. His drag bike was small block Chevy powered.