Recover from lost oil sight glass?

prhkgh · Jan 18, 2009

Ok folks, really bad day w/my 2000 R1100RT, 98K miles. Riding on highway, 70mpg, saw oil cloud behind me, as lost power as stopping. Was victim of missing "oil sight glass". Oil pressure idiot light never came on, but, I didn't get it stopped before loss of power. Waiting for replacement sight glass. Have read threads about replacing it. I am looking for suggestions as to how best to ATTEMPT to recover from this before taking it somewhere for a full engine teardown. My inclination is to try this:

1. replace sight glass (duh)
2. fill oil
3. pull spark plugs, shoot a little oil in the cylinders
4. crank engine w/spark plugs out, to allow oil in cylinders to (hopefully) lubricate the rings...if the engine will crank at all that is. (Haven't tried, want to wait until I have sight glass and oil in it.)
5. Assuming engine turns over, and then as lubricated turns over faster, then put plugs back in and give it a go.
6. Expect oil cloud out of exhaust when starting as the oil I put in cylinders burns off. Possibly will foul plugs and will clean and gap them if so.

I'll have the sight glass tomorrow (Monday, M.L.K. day), and will try recovery then.

Is this a realistic course of action? I read how some folks have wrecked their engines from loss of sight glass and oil, my fingers are crossed that I stopped in time...on the plus side oil light never came on until I was fully stopped. On the minus side is power disappeared as I was merging over to stop on highway so it may be too late...

Alternative suggestions welcomed. Paul (the dummy) Hoffman prhkgh@comcast.

PS: although it's a high mileage bike, I've only had it for 6K miles...don't know if sight glass had ever been replaced, didn't realize it was a potential problem until after the fact.

MotorradMike · Jan 18, 2009

Hi Paul:

Firstly, don't be calling yourself a dummy. Stuff happens and there isn't much you can do about it.

Secondly, wait for the guys who know what they're talking about to chime in before you do anything but I think your list makes sense. I also think if you got the engine switched off before the oil light went on you haven't starved the main bearings.
If you lost power then maybe the pistons siezed in the bores and you need rings etc. I'd try turning the crank with a wrench or bumping the motor over in top gear to verify that, filling it with oil isn't going to lube the main bearings, you need pressure for that.

Good luck, FWIW I feel your pain.

DARKCLOUD · Jan 18, 2009

sight glass

When you put the new sight glass in, drain the oil and measure how much was left in the engine. Put in a fresh change of oil and start the engine. Since it is dry, it may make some noises intially. Probably no harm done at all. Now if you have full coverage on your bike, maybe some road debris hit the sight glass. JON

pglaves · Jan 18, 2009

You probably are OK. Install a new sight glass - rubber insert clean and dry. Clean and dry the recess in the block too.

Drain the remainder of the oil. Add new oil and filter.

Give it a few seconds to recharge all the oil passages.

Voni's R1100RS did this a couple of times - but at 345,000 miles the motor is still going strong. Original rings and everything. It did get a valve job at 300K though.

And to anybody else interested:

When you detect any seepage around the sight glass it is time to change it. The rubber hardens and loses its elasticity. And as oil seeps between the rubber and the aluminum it gets .... well, it gets lubricated and slippery. And pretty soon ..... poooof - there goes the sight glass.

RIDERR1150GSADV · Jan 18, 2009

First figure out how much oil you lost. The oil sight glass never shows oil when the engine is running as the oil is circulating through the motor/ oil cooler etc. You probably lost most of the oil when you stopped the bike. The pressure light didn't come on because there was oil pressure in the system. The engine did get hot, hence the power loss. There is a good chance that the engine is fine but I'd take it easy on the startup.
I had a similar thing happen in my cage when the oil pan got holed due to road crud. I got to the dealer in time and when I stopped the engine, about 5 qts of oil dumped out on the pavement. The hole was behind a baffle so most of it kept circulating in the system....

Good luck!!

dbrick · Jan 18, 2009

PGlaves said:
When you detect any seepage around the sight glass it is time to change it. The rubber hardens and loses its elasticity. And as oil seeps between the rubber and the aluminum it gets .... well, it gets lubricated and slippery. And pretty soon ..... poooof - there goes the sight glass.

Paul, will you offer an opinion about longevity? My '96 RS is at 98K, no seepage, and a five-day trip is coming up. I guess I should carry a spare and rely on Eilenberger's Law.

radar41 · Jan 18, 2009

Do Not Forget

PGlaves said:
You probably are OK. Install a new sight glass - rubber insert clean and dry. Clean and dry the recess in the block too.

Drain the remainder of the oil. Add new oil and filter.

Give it a few seconds to recharge all the oil passages.

When you renew the oil and filter, DO NOT FORGET to fill the oil filter with oil BEFORE installation!!

PETDOC · Jan 19, 2009

dbrick said:
Paul, will you offer an opinion about longevity? My '96 RS is at 98K, no seepage, and a five-day trip is coming up. I guess I should carry a spare and rely on Eilenberger's Law.

Paul,
I'd also be interested in your opinion on sight glass change interval if you have one. Due to reading some stories of lost sight glasses out in the "wilderness" I've carried a spare with me since first acquiring my '04 GS. Its got 41,000 miles now and no signs of any leaking, which is what I mentally have accepted as trigger for routine change.

Dave Edwards
Walland, TN

prhkgh · Jan 19, 2009

Thread Wrap Up

First off, I want to thank everyone who weighed in on my lost sight glass, oil, and engine function, both here and on some bmw-related listservs. Based on the input from those who, from past postings, know much more than I about my engine's situation, I am NOT going to try to restart it as originally planned. I DID have a loss of power before shutting down, general concensus is this was bearings seizing up, and even if I get it running I run a high risk of worse trouble like breaking a connecting rod and putting it through the block.

So now I'll be considering other options...rebuild, put in a used engine, or even purchase of similar bike and keep this one as a parts bike. Finances will drive the decision, technologically I'd be ok with any of these 3 choices. Leaning AWAY from doing it myself because I just don't know enough about proper alignment of components and have read too many stories of rear end and spline problems.

As far as MY opinion of sight glass maintenance. Well, thanks for asking, but since I just toasted my engine I'm probably the worst qualified to answer...other than "don't do as I do." BUT, from all the reading I've done on the matter post-event, here's what I NOW think:

The loss is due to the aging and hardening of the rubber seal...it is a function (maybe) of age, mileage, and how many hot / cold cycles the engine goes through. I didn't read of anyone losing one with under 40,000 miles, and many/most bikes seem to approach or surpass 100,000 without any problems. If there is ANY seeping or "weepage" seen in the area, it's time to proactively change it. RIGHT THEN. At a cost of about $35 and not taking up much space, I'd advise if you have over 35,000 miles on the bike (or since it was changed), carry one along with you, as well as a socket slightly smaller in diameter...that way if you do have one drop out, you can do roadside or at least nearby-garage repair as long as you catch it quicker than I did. Best I can tell, you want to insert the new oil sight glass absolutely dry...and ensure the hole it seats into is bone dry too. You do NOT want to lubricate it with oil, that would make it easier to go in but also easier to go out. Some say use sealant, but a BMW motorcycle mechanic and business owner with over 30 years told me he had never gone that route. As another suggested to me, if your sight glass starts to get cloudy, use that as an excuse that it's time. (I don't think the cloudy affects the drop out, but it might be like changing your smoke alarm batteries twice a year...a bit of proactive work.)

Thanks everyone for the input. It's going to take a while to get the finances straight before I do anything...besides the bike trouble, my work hours have been cut for the 2nd time in 6 months...from 40, to 38, and Friday down to 34. I work for a non-profit, and funding is drying up in these tough economic times. Since I do have alternate transportation the bike repairs willl have to wait a while since I'm not going to just try to restart it.

Paul

rich · Jan 19, 2009

I don't see how you come to the conclusion you "toasted" your engine until you fill it with oil and turn the darn thing over. It might be fine. Unless you have money to burn, I'd be doing just that myself.

Many years ago, my neighbor had a brand spanking new chevrolet pickup, I think about a 1973 model. He dropped the oil, got sidetracked, and one of his boys started it up and drove it out to the pasture. It seized up solid. They let it cool down, filled it with oil, and that pickup still runs today. With well over 100,000 miles on it. He says the engine has never been opened up, and he still laughs telling the story.

Re-read Paul's post above. From what I've read here in this forum, I'd take his advice any day.

GSFORNOW · Jan 19, 2009

Rich said:
I don't see how you come to the conclusion you "toasted" your engine until you fill it with oil and turn the darn thing over. It might be fine. Unless you have money to burn, I'd be doing just that myself.

+1 I'm no mechanic but if you think it is done already I really don't see the harm in filling it up and starting it up. It will cost you a sight glass and some oil - go for it.

bikerfish1100 · Jan 19, 2009

lost an oil drain plug on an old Volvo 122S on the way to an emergency vet visit (didn;t know i dropped the drain plug at the time). oil light came on. added oil that i had with me. drove some more. light came back on. had no more oil to put in. drove to the vet, about 10 miles with no oil. bearings were knowcking at that point.
got a drain plug, refilled, and continued to run that engine for another few thousand miles. would knock if i got on it hard, but otherwise you'd never know anything bad had happened to it.
i'd think you'd be fine restarting it with fresh oil and all. see what it sounds like- and go from there. changing lower end bearings (most likely damage area) is not a really tough job, nor very cost intensive in terms of parts.
good lulck, regardless.

fwiw- i would also recommend replacing the sight glass when it gets cloudy- not all that much likely life left before the leaks start. if you have the sight glass there to see your oil, wouldn't you want to SEE your oil?

MOTOR31 · Jan 19, 2009

Before you give up on it I'd try running it again.

FWIW there is a way to get the oil pressure up in the bike before starting it. Do what others have said. Measure the oil left in the bike, replace the filter and oil filling the filter first. Then pull the plugs out of the cylinders and use the starter to spin the engine until the oil is circulated through it. The oil light should turn off to show that. Then install the plugs and fire it up. If you did not hear bad sounds from the engine and the engine turns over easily without the plugs you may have just dodged the bullet. If you did have bad sounds or get bad sounds when trying to circulate the oil then yep the bottom end is probably toast but don't give up on it unless you do have those symptoms.

redram · Jan 21, 2009

A few years ago, my wife, while driving home in her '96 Dodge Neon, hit something in the road, and tore a hole in the oil filter. I went back where the hit occured, and on the road was a large splash of oil followed by a trail of oil. Long story short- that was about 5 mi. from home, so it was driven with practically no oil for that distance, it had about 2 oz of oil when I drained it. Filled it back up, clattered for a few minutes, and ran perfectly for more than another 100k miles, and is still on the road, with more than 200 k. Like everyone else said-don't give up on yours so quick-you may be suprised (pleasantly)

pglaves · Jan 21, 2009

PETDOC said:
Paul,
I'd also be interested in your opinion on sight glass change interval if you have one. Due to reading some stories of lost sight glasses out in the "wilderness" I've carried a spare with me since first acquiring my '04 GS. Its got 41,000 miles now and no signs of any leaking, which is what I mentally have accepted as trigger for routine change.

Dave Edwards
Walland, TN

I wind up changing them every 2 or 3 years - which is every 50 to 75K miles in our case. I am extra cautious on Voni's R1100RS (345K miles on that bike) because from day 1 the machined recess in the block in that bike is slightly oversize. Installing a new one takes just firm two-thumb pressure where on every other bike I've done it took some tapping with a socket-as-a-driver on the rubber to insert the new one.

I've never seen a clean and dry one pop out - meaning that in my mind the seepage is the definitive time to change test. Any seepage that gets outside is almost certainly all the way around the grooved outer circumference of the seal. At that point there is significant risk.

And I sometimes change them just because the plastic has yellowed.

For the curious - on Voni's RS with the loose machining - I actually glue the inside face of the rubber ring to the shoulder in the recess (not around the circumference) with Loctite Black Max which is a thick, black, rubberized, super glue. The thick gel type off the shelf stuff works too but not as well. I don't recommend using this stuff on a normally tight new one because it makes getting the old one out after it starts seeping a lot more troube. Don't use silicone RTV - it won't accomplish anything at all in this application in my opinion.

JANMILLER · Jan 21, 2009

And to anybody else interested:

When you detect any seepage around the sight glass it is time to change it. The rubber hardens and loses its elasticity. And as oil seeps between the rubber and the aluminum it gets .... well, it gets lubricated and slippery. And pretty soon ..... poooof - there goes the sight glass.[/QUOTE]

Hi Paul,

How do you get the sight glass out if it doesn't leave of it's own volition??

Is there any way to prevent the blow-out, some way to externally secure the thing, maybe a lock-wire over it... ????

MOTOR31 · Jan 21, 2009

To remove it. Drill a small hole in the glass (plastic) and insert a small course thread screw (sheet metal or wood) grasp with pliers and pull.

mistral · Jan 21, 2009

Is there any way to prevent the blow-out, some way to externally secure the

thing, maybe a lock-wire over it... ????[/QUOTE]

How about a snap ring that fits not too tight just as a safety. Also If that were my bike I would have fired it back up as soon as I replaced the sight glass. No more harm can be done if you already pronounce it dead.

Ron

kgadley01 · Jan 21, 2009

prhkgh said:
First off, I want to thank everyone who weighed in on my lost sight glass, oil, and engine function, both here and on some bmw-related listservs. Based on the input from those who, from past postings, know much more than I about my engine's situation, I am NOT going to try to restart it as originally planned. I DID have a loss of power before shutting down, general concensus is this was bearings seizing up, and even if I get it running I run a high risk of worse trouble like breaking a connecting rod and putting it through the block.

So now I'll be considering other options...rebuild, put in a used engine, or even purchase of similar bike and keep this one as a parts bike. Finances will drive the decision, technologically I'd be ok with any of these 3 choices. Leaning AWAY from doing it myself because I just don't know enough about proper alignment of components and have read too many stories of rear end and spline problems.

As far as MY opinion of sight glass maintenance. Well, thanks for asking, but since I just toasted my engine I'm probably the worst qualified to answer...other than "don't do as I do." BUT, from all the reading I've done on the matter post-event, here's what I NOW think:

The loss is due to the aging and hardening of the rubber seal...it is a function (maybe) of age, mileage, and how many hot / cold cycles the engine goes through. I didn't read of anyone losing one with under 40,000 miles, and many/most bikes seem to approach or surpass 100,000 without any problems. If there is ANY seeping or "weepage" seen in the area, it's time to proactively change it. RIGHT THEN. At a cost of about $35 and not taking up much space, I'd advise if you have over 35,000 miles on the bike (or since it was changed), carry one along with you, as well as a socket slightly smaller in diameter...that way if you do have one drop out, you can do roadside or at least nearby-garage repair as long as you catch it quicker than I did. Best I can tell, you want to insert the new oil sight glass absolutely dry...and ensure the hole it seats into is bone dry too. You do NOT want to lubricate it with oil, that would make it easier to go in but also easier to go out. Some say use sealant, but a BMW motorcycle mechanic and business owner with over 30 years told me he had never gone that route. As another suggested to me, if your sight glass starts to get cloudy, use that as an excuse that it's time. (I don't think the cloudy affects the drop out, but it might be like changing your smoke alarm batteries twice a year...a bit of proactive work.)

Thanks everyone for the input. It's going to take a while to get the finances straight before I do anything...besides the bike trouble, my work hours have been cut for the 2nd time in 6 months...from 40, to 38, and Friday down to 34. I work for a non-profit, and funding is drying up in these tough economic times. Since I do have alternate transportation the bike repairs willl have to wait a while since I'm not going to just try to restart it.

Paul

Replace the sightglass, fill with oil and start the engine. what do you have to lose? while riding with a friend several years ago, he lost his drain plug and all his oil on an older K model Honda 750. we bought a rubber drain plug at the nearest auto store, stuck it in, then added oil and went on our way. he never had another problem...

bikerfish1100 · Jan 21, 2009

or, if you want to check it on the cheap- put in a correct size freeze plug (i've seen it posted, but not sure of the sizing) and some Castrol GTX, see what it sounds like. if all is good, drain the oil, replace the freeze with a sight glass (they're about $25-30 as i recall, so not a totally insignificant amount if you think the engine might be toast), and you're good to go.

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