Why the Big 3 are where they are now...

osbornk said:

I think you will find equal pay and non-descrimination has nothing to do with unions but it is federal law. Unions once had a very important place in this country but they overplayed their hand to the point that they destroy industries and cause many people to lose jobs. The steel industry, airline industry, the American auto industry are good examples of what unions can do to you.

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I think you will find equal pay and non discrimination clauses in union contracts before the federal government got around to it. Did you ever see the white guy in the front row of the sixties civil rights marches? That was Walter Reuther.

Foreign dumping of steel and autos along with currency manipulation are two big reasons for the decline of both American industries. The bottom line is that foreign governments have heavily subsidized their export industries. We have thrown ours overboard in the name of "free trade."

Union

IMHO, the UAW has about destroyed the big three auto makers here in Michigan. I know personally many present and retired auto workers. However, I don't know one who speaks highly of the product quality. Most of them brag about the cubby holes where they slept, buddies punching them in for work, or having games to see what they could get by the inspectors.

My cousins husband, a retired GM employee, still brags about sleeping on the job for most of his thirty years. He was an "oiler" of some type. However, he was always a big supporter of the Democratic Party, since the union told members who to vote for, then gave them a day off to vote.

Unions did have their place years ago, but now they have become too greedy and corrupt. Do a Google search on union strikes during WWII. Unions were striking at defense plants, while the troops were overseas and needed the supplies.

I will start buying union produced products when they break ties with the Democrats. Until then, I will always buy non-union goods, if possible.

gec343 said:

IMHO, the UAW has about destroyed the big three auto makers here in Michigan. I know personally many present and retired auto workers. However, I don't know one who speaks highly of the product quality. Most of them brag about the cubby holes where they slept, buddies punching them in for work, or having games to see what they could get by the inspectors.

My cousins husband, a retired GM employee, still brags about sleeping on the job for most of his thirty years. He was an "oiler" of some type. However, he was always a big supporter of the Democratic Party, since the union told members who to vote for, then gave them a day off to vote.

Unions did have their place years ago, but now they have become too greedy and corrupt. Do a Google search on union strikes during WWII. Unions were striking at defense plants, while the troops were overseas and needed the supplies.

I will start buying union produced products when they break ties with the Democrats. Until then, I will always buy non-union goods, if possible.

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Wow. Hard to argue against a good anecdote (or two or three).

Well, back to the point of the OP (I think), my experiences with Japanese and American autos is:

1977 Toyota Pickup: Drove the wheels off it (~130,000 miles in two years) and replaced brake pads and a clutch. Loved it.

1981 Corolla: Drove the heck out of it, and never did anything to it.

1983 Toyota Pickup: ~90,000 miles in 3 years, don't recall any problems.

In 1999 I was in the market for a large-ish truck, and wanted a Toyota, but they had just stopped making the T100, and hadn't gotten the Tundras on the market yet. No used T100's available, so I went and looked at GMC. I had never purchased an American car before, was nervous from all the horror stories I'd heard about reliability problems, but tried to be open minded.

I picked up a new Sierra 3-door for about the same as a used T100 would have cost. Drove it for five years with minimal maintenance, and no problems.

My girlfriend wanted an suv-type to replace her Accord, and liked the look of the the Toyota RAV's. We found a used one at a price that wasn't too excessive and brought it home. In 30,000 miles, we replaced 3 oxygen sensors (1 free, two at $300+ each), and put TWO sets of tires on it, due to a cupping problem. Mileage was so-so, and the overall experience was not pleasant. Perhaps we got a lemon, but several internet forums seemed to confirm our experience.

Sold the 99 GMC to my boy, and bought a 2004 GMC Sierra 4x4 4 door (need to tow heavy trailers up a steep dirt hill frequently). After two weeks a fuel hose split, dealer picked it up and repaired it the same day. I've burned out a few fuses by hooking up a crappily-wired trailer to the light connection. Put on 2 new rear tires at 40,000 miles.

Overall, I've been pleasantly surprised by the quality and reliability of the GMC's.

I think the days of generalizing, "Toyota=bulletproof, American autos=unreliable" are past.

Timba said:

, .

I think the days of generalizing, "Toyota=bulletproof, American autos=unreliable" are past.

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Isn't that exactly their problem? For a long time and "for a lotta people's money" they really didn't make cars that were as good as the Japanese in a hundred different ways. Their sales were propped up by people who would only buy American, (bless their patriotic hearts) or folks who mistakenly still thought that ''Made in Japan" still meant crappy. Just as many of us now think "Made in Detroit" still means crappy.
Back in the 70's after the Saudis/OPEC nailed us the first time, when it might have made sense, patriotically speaking, for them to start making excellent fuel efficient cars, they didn't. They fought aginst CAFE standards. And made crappy small cars. Heck these are the same people who fought against seat belts and rear-view mirrors. This is our third go-'round with "high" oil prices. Nobody seems to learn anything. This past month, since oil prices have dipped, people are buying SUV's and the like again. And sticking flags and yellow ribbons on the back! Just where do they think that gas is coming from?
On the other hand, I suppose in some ways you can't blame the car guys. If I thought I could make money right now by not re-tooling, or changing my business model for some vague time down the road, I'd be right there hauling in the dough and selling what I always sold.
It's human nature.

I see a lot of blame being laid on the economics and the labor force but none of you has mentioned the bad management decisions.

The "big three" stalled for years on moving to efficient and/or alternative fuels, crying, "We need R&D time and money." Wahh! It takes too much time and money to roll out new models or fuel technology.

Oh, wait a minute. How about all those models made and sold in the foreign markets? The small Fords you see in the UK? The flex fuel vehicles and the alcohol vehicles and fuel stations I saw in Brazil in 1990, for example?

Of course, the financials in Brazil are a bit different. If you want to sell in that market, you must produce in that market. What a novel idea!

The huge problem is tying executive pay and bonuses to the quarterly or annual performance of the stock price, or quarterly or annual net profit (or loss). This provides all the incentive required for folks to think short-term only and to fail to plan for the long run health of the company.

Yes, boards and executives have a fiduciary responsibility to look out for the good of the stockholders, but the time horizon for which they do that is their reasonable choice. And given the current incentive structure that means next month's quarterly report - not what will we be, and be worth, in 5 years or 10 years. It is a shame really!

2000 Ford Taurus wagon bought new. Paid off long ago. A great car. VW's? Love 'em and curse 'em at the same time. I've had a gazillion of those. Just picked up a nice Saturn Aura - a great car. I'm excited about the new Ford Fiesta. Also, the Transit is cool.

GlobalRider said:

Whatever works for you. The bottom line is minimal cost per mile.

And I think when one looks at the big picture, the answer is quite clear.

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Looks murky to me. My all time favorite cars were described here as some POS. It depends if you think of a car as an appliance, or as something to enjoy. Some American cars are incredible, some are not. We recently sold a 95 Contour for $800, and bought a 92 Civic for $1400. I believe the used car market accurately reflects the overall value of a vehicle, and the Japanese definatly have the advantage.

My 6cyl 2005 Ford Freestyle gets 21mpg in town and 27mpg on the interstate. My 2006 HD FSXTI has delivered up to 51mpg on the highway, does not leak, and is totally dependable. My 2004 CLC costs more to maintain than the HD but is a much better bike for long trips with suprising handling for a cruiser, great brakes, cruise control, and other amenities. New cars and mc's are much better than those produced just 10 short years ago. Other than buying new tires, replacing brake pads & some bulbs, performing regular maintenance, I've had no other expenses on my vehicles. Before buying my Ford I owned a Nissan Quest van, put 160k on it and still see it occasionally driving around Jacksonville. You can buy a LEMON from virtually any manufacturer, as a previous poster opined, any future vehicle purchases will be used cars/bikes, as there are very good opportunities to save money if you are willing to look. Ride Safe

Montana said:

I see a lot of blame being laid on the economics and the labor force but none of you has mentioned the bad management decisions.

The "big three" stalled for years on moving to efficient and/or alternative fuels, crying, "We need R&D time and money." Wahh! It takes too much time and money to roll out new models or fuel technology.

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Sorry to quote you out of context but for me this is an excellent point. Anyone who has read "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors" by John Z. De Lorean will have a whole new view of the old-time management style that came out of the 70's! Times are different now but somehow I think old management philosophy's linger.

108625 said:

We made the same choice when we traded in our POS Subaru Outback. The Impala has given a great car for us and we'll stick with it.

I think it's obvious now that every automaker that doesn't cater exclusively to the very rich (Ferrari) is not doing well. It's not just a "Big Three" thing.

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Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with the POS Subaru? Transmission?

bogthebasher said:

Times are different now but somehow I think old management philosophy's linger.

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Yes, we now have more "Business Schools" teaching the same old logic. Hopefully, someday, creating and building will be as important as managing and litigating.

I cover three states for my company and we log the miles and spend hours in quarries and gravel pits. Since 1999 we have been driving Tahoes and I have had 7 of them. Other than tires, LOF and basic maintenance these have been great, reliable vehicles. My wife gets to drive the Audi A6 (#2 in 11 years) and those have been a treat to own!
Our company has put us into the Chevy Traverse now and they are getting 20mpg compared to the Tahoe getting 17mpg on a good day. Only have 20K on this one so far so we will see. Very good vehicle so far....

Montana said:

I see a lot of blame being laid on the economics and the labor force but none of you has mentioned the bad management decisions.

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Speaking of bad management decisions, I think Toyota has been near the front of the line in recent years. They have failed to notify the proper people and customers of safety problems, recalling for defects in one country and not another and manyh other things that will haunt them for years and cost them billions in settlements.

Some people just don't like foreign cars, or for that matter foreign motorcycles. Saying an excellent car can't be made in Japan makes as much sense as saying an excellent motorcycle can't be made in Germany. The issue goes beyond where the product is made. Paul made some excellent points in his two earlier posts. The times are changing fast and if Detroit does not keep up, we’ll be seeing more companies go the way of Saturn, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Plymouth, along with more automaker bailouts.

It’s interesting to note that Consumer Reports, an American magazine, still has Toyota and Honda cars rated higher in overall reliability than any American car manufacturer.

The American auto executives have been making some interesting statements lately regarding their new vehicles. I hope it's not just hot air. I would truly like to see the American automobile industry go back to the top.

Easy

36654 said:

Just out of curiosity, what was the issue with the POS Subaru? Transmission?

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Dunno about others but before I finally sold my Subaru Legacy it had broken four timing belts (about one every 20-30K Km), kept burning out bulbs all over the car, rattled and squeaked like a pig-wagon after it was a month old, and was burning oil after 100K Km. I hated it for leaving me high and dry more than once. But the four wheel drive was amazingly effective which I used a lot living in northern Alberta at the time. It definitely was a hate-love relationship.

osbornk said:

Speaking of bad management decisions, I think Toyota has been near the front of the line in recent years. They have failed to notify the proper people and customers of safety problems, recalling for defects in one country and not another and manyh other things that will haunt them for years and cost them billions in settlements.

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You are correct of course,about Toyota's inconsistent reaction, but I read an interview with an Edmund's lady quoting their information, from their survey that the gas pedal thing has actually been as prevelant in other brands , as in Toyota!
Another rant I need to get out: I read that GM payed off the taxpayer debt, after making a profit, and now I read that GM's mgr, Obama, wants to spend $800 mil of our $ to clean up the old , no longer used factories. No wonder they?/us? made a profit. When you don't spend $800 mil that you should be spending, it makes for more top line ! (You can call this political from me but it comes from my Lexington Herald paper which is openly liberal!) Can't get a much more open comment than a conservative quoting a liberal?This whole thing is out of control/reason! End of rant, so don't trash me...


More rant: If the trend in the media continues , eg., that GM and other domestics are now so great, it is no wonder that some of the foreign stuff is going down in sales. It gets old hearing TV people that don't know squat about vehicles, saying what is good and so on.

Whenever the power goes off, my cheap clock radio resets to the first AM station on the dial and I'm treated to a very brief dose of talk radio. Someday, I'm going throw that piece of crap in the trash and buy a better radio with a battery back-up.

Don't look now but . . .

The manufacturers to watch are two:
Hyundai and Kia.

You heard it here first.
Or not.



(Quickly: Ford looks like they have a chance, GM still doesn't know it's 1980 let alone 2010, they have that reverse Midas touch and Chrysler? Heck can we finally let them die?)